For me, it's either theistic evolution or nothing.

[FaithT]

Can't say as I agree, Roasthawg. First of all, science is not some weapon of the Devil here. To start with, science is not at all equipped to deal with questions of God. Scientific discoveries are actually neutral on this question. Evolution per se is entirely mute on whether there is or is not a God. Many Christians believe in evolution. I, for one, believe evolution would have been impossible without God. When the Bible enters the picture, the issue is how exactly you want to interpret the biblical geophysics. From the 16thecentury on, science debunked the biblical cosmology, with its flat earth and geocentric view. Yet, that did not stop Christians from honoring the Bible or believing in God. Calvin, in his commentary in Genesis, stressed that God did not intend to give us an astronomy lesson, for example. If you examine the Sitz and Leben of the biblical world, that makes sense. Divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is the product of a semi-barbaric, prescientific culture. Under those circumstances it would be ridiculous to assume the biblical writers had any knowledge of advanced scientific truth. Also, God is like a careful carpenter. God works with the grain, not over and against it. God can move only as fast as we are ready and able. Hence, God was not about to reveal scientific truths to the writers, anymore than God would have been willing to give Columbus a nuclear sub.
Much comes down to how you want to interpret Scripture. Everyone views Scripture through some sort of lens. With many, especially the laity, the lens is that provided by the teachings of their church, which they generally assume to be without question. They go to the Bible, then, with the idea firmly fixed in their heads that it is inerrant. The way things happened is exactly the way the Bible says they did. Nothing else will do or even be considered. From the standpoint of modern biblical studies, however, that is about the worst thing you can do. You should come to Scripture, with an open with. You should come with the lens provided by a healthy skepticism about traditional teachings. Maybe Genesis is accurate, maybe not. Maybe the Bible is inerrant, maybe not. Let's do some thorough research and then base our conclusions on that.

Great post.

 

[FredVB]

Until recently I belonged to a LCMS church for about 5 years and they are young earth creationists who reject evolution, though it was never preached on. My pastor knew I believe in an old earth, theistic evolution and was ok with it as long as I believed that God “could’ve“ made the earth in 6 literal days, 6000 years ago and that He “could’ve” done it by creating Adam from the dust of the ground. Well,of course He could have done those things because He’s God, but I don’t believe He did.

I read just about anything I could get my hands on, on the topic of creationism and I studied and studied but I still just don’t believe it. It was really, really bothering me that I didn’t believe what my church believed. So for the last three weeks I’ve been going back to a non denominational church I went to before, that has a mix of young earth believers and old earth believers. Some (I’ve heard that it’s probably the majority) believe in creationism rather than theistic evolution but they have believers of all kinds and this church focuses on Jesus and salvation issues, which the LCMS also said they do, too, yet young earth creationism is the official position of the church.

So, where do you say death started from?

 

[FaithT]

So, where do you say death started from?

I don’t know all the specifics I just know that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

 

[FaithT]

And what’s with the sombreros?

 

[tampasteve]

My pastor knew I believe in an old earth, theistic evolution and was ok with it as long as I believed that God “could’ve“ made the earth in 6 literal days, 6000 years ago and that He “could’ve” done it by creating Adam from the dust of the ground. Well,of course He could have done those things because He’s God, but I don’t believe He did.

I think this is the real important part of the discussion, the believing.
I also believe in an old Earth, let's be honest here, the evidence to some sort of evolution, multiple millions of years of existence are all overwhelming. Could God have created it that way? Sure, of course. Did he? It does not appear that it was created in that way.

The important part is believing that he could do it, IMO. None of it is a salvific issue anyway, so whether we believe in YEC or not should not really matter, but it sure is interesting to study.

 

[tampasteve]

And what’s with the sombreros?

Dia de los muertos holiday theme.

It is one of the holidays in the settings, we can't pick and choose which ones we want to display, but you can turn them all off if you wish (I did for myself):
1. Click on your name on the top bar,
2. Click the gear icon
3. Select preferences
4. Scroll down to 4th item, Content Options.
5. The last item on that list will be Disable Holiday Styling. Check that box. All the annoying graphics will go away.

 

[FaithT]

Dia de los muertos holiday theme.

It is one of the holidays in the settings, we can't pick and choose which ones we want to display, but you can turn them all off if you wish (I did for myself):
1. Click on your name on the top bar,
2. Click the gear icon
3. Select preferences
4. Scroll down to 4th item, Content Options.
5. The last item on that list will be Disable Holiday Styling. Check that box. All the annoying graphics will go away.

No, I don’t mind them, I just had no idea it was a Mexican holiday.

 

[FaithT]

I think this is the real important part of the discussion, the believing.
I also believe in an old Earth, let's be honest here, the evidence to some sort of evolution, multiple millions of years of existence are all overwhelming. Could God have created it that way? Sure, of course. Did he? It does not appear that it was created in that way.

The important part is believing that he could do it, IMO. None of it is a salvific issue anyway, so whether we believe in YEC or not should not really matter, but it sure is interesting to study.

Your last paragraph is more or less what a couple pastors at my ND church said.

 

[FredVB]

I don’t know all the specifics I just know that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

So, the Bible account at the beginning which the new testament of the Bible reiterates shows that death came from sin at the time of the fall, moreover originally humans and animals had their food from plants and photosynthesizing organisms, and, Christianity has its basis from the Bible, which has its basis with history and other great evidences. What do you do with that? Long ages might be made to work with that understanding, but evolution that would work with survival of the fittest, which means not surviving for the rest? And it would seem that the unformed world before life was created on it would even work better with long ages with the account.

 

[FredVB]

I think this is the real important part of the discussion, the believing.
I also believe in an old Earth, let's be honest here, the evidence to some sort of evolution, multiple millions of years of existence are all overwhelming. Could God have created it that way? Sure, of course. Did he? It does not appear that it was created in that way.

The important part is believing that he could do it, IMO. None of it is a salvific issue anyway, so whether we believe in YEC or not should not really matter, but it sure is interesting to study.

If only those pesky scripture passages did really not suggest otherwise. I would see one Creator having the same basic plan for design of many different kinds, and it can look to some people like they are related by coming from the same ancestors. But the passages only show me God created the different kinds as they were, and gaps remain between them. There is such evidence that even I find too hard to avoid that there were things many ages longer than half a dozen or a dozen millenia. To me what would be the most consistent with the understanding of the passages I see is such long ages while the earth was in its unformed state, and things were so different before God created life and everything with all of it in this world.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are mountains of evidence for evolution. It is corroborated by research in every field. Scientists are basically unanimous these days. The only ones who won't give in, after 150 years, are the fundamentalists.

So for me, and many others I'm sure, it's either theistic evolution or we simply can not believe in Christianity.
This is why Christians should stop telling people they can't believe in evolution. Is a person's belief in evolution going to send them to Hell, as long as they believe that Jesus has saved them and they have accepted him? No! As long as the central belief is there, it doesn't matter what a person thinks about the origin of the earth. It's like whether a person believes in post-Trib or pre-Trib. Who the hell cares?

If Christians keep pushing the view that people can't believe in both Christianity and evolution, many potential Christians will be lost. They will be pushed away from the church as it becomes increasingly anachronistic. The will say, "I believe in evolution; of course I can't be a Christian." But that's only because Christians themselves have promoted this view. They have a damn grudge match with evolution. Christianity and evolution need not be mutually exclusive.

I believe in evolution, and in my view, if God was involved, it is an absolutely beautiful phenomenon. It is the work of a master artist, a supremely brilliant engineer. A single-celled organism gave way to all of the life we see on earth around us. It's amazing! Praise be to God for this glorious master work that shows us his incredible ingenuity.

I trust the Bible account of Genesis 1-11 because God wrote it and He knows infinitely more than I do. If He says that He created the world in six 24 hours a day, I believe Him. I don't believe people who think they are more learned than God Himself.

 

[sfs]

I trust the Bible account of Genesis 1-11 because God wrote it

Where did you get the idea that God wrote the Bible?

 

[lismore]

An interesting parallel we can note these days is with the trans issue. Scientists are promoting or at least many are not refuting the idea of gender fluidity. The chromosome differences between male and female a 1st year biology student could tell you about are out the window, crushed into silence under the politically correct juggernaut. The same vehicle that promoted evolution theory and old earth and silenced those with the facts as regards Creationism. But it's a rickety bridge they're now walking over. God Bless All

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where did you get the idea that God wrote the Bible?

1 Timothy 3:16-17: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:21: "for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

For over 1700 years it was believed that God wrote the Bible until the 18th Century when some German theologians decided that He didn't. The verses I quoted represent the word of God rather than the word of man. It is the word of man that says that He didn't write the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

1 Timothy 3:16-17: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:21: "for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

For over 1700 years it was believed that God wrote the Bible until the 18th Century when some German theologians decided that He didn't. The verses I quoted represent the word of God rather than the word of man. It is the word of man that says that He didn't write the Bible.

The text says that holy men spoke. Moses is typically attributed as the author of the Pentateuch.


Similarly in the new testament, Paul addresses his own letters. We know that he wrote them because he said that he did.

‭‭Philemon 1:19
I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand: I will repay it. I say nothing about your owing me even your own self.

The Bible is not a science textbook:

 

[sfs]

1 Timothy 3:16-17: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:21: "for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Neither of which says anything about God writing the Bible. In fact, the second doesn't say anything about writing at all. Don't add to the text.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The text says that holy men spoke. Moses is typically attributed as the author of the Pentateuch.


Similarly in the new testament, Paul addresses his own letters. We know that he wrote them because he said that he did.

‭‭Philemon 1:19
I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand: I will repay it. I say nothing about your owing me even your own self.

The Bible is not a science textbook:

"Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is the Lord’s command. But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored" (1 Corinthians 14:36-38).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Neither of which says anything about God writing the Bible. In fact, the second doesn't say anything about writing at all. Don't add to the text.

If you have the mindset that the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the writers of the Bible, then there is nothing more I can say.

 

[sfs]

If you have the mindset that the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the writers of the Bible, then there is nothing more I can say.

Huh? You said that God wrote the Bible, not that he inspired those who did write. Two very different things. In Islam, the Koran was written by God, but that has never been a common Christian belief.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Huh? You said that God wrote the Bible, not that he inspired those who did write. Two very different things. In Islam, the Koran was written by God, but that has never been a common Christian belief.

Because you can't see that inspired is equivalent to actually writing the Bible, I won't bother enlightening you. The Koran was not inspired or written by God, because Allah is not the God of the Bible, but a moon god as depicted on the crescent moon on their flags. As a matter of fact, more and more principal PhD scientists are making discoveries that they are seeing don't fit into the evolutionary theory. Their only conclusion about the formation of the cosmos and the world is, "We don't know".