Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Diamond7]

until one day a hominid named Adam was given a soul and became the first person.

Very much like being a Christian and being born again and a new creation in Christ.

 

[expos4ever]

We see some evidence of species changing. We make a theory of evolution and the origin of species. We see more and more evidence to support our theory. Therefore (for that reason - the reason being that there is supporting evidence) we know that our theory is good and evolution is real. Ok, so far so good... there are some issues that I am intentionally overlooking, but for the most part this is perfectly reasonable.

Next comes this:

We know that evolution exists and therefore (for that reason) people had to be created by no other means as evolution.

Do you see the error?

There is no error. You are assuming something that is incorrect - that there is not direct evidence that humans evolved - you imply that while there is evidence that evolution is real, the step to include humans in the evolution model is an unsubstantiated leap of faith.

I guarantee this is not case - while I am not prepared to make the case right now (in this post), I am certain there is direct evidence that humans have evolved.

Again, I am not denying evolution of animals or even evolution of humans past the initial creation. What I am saying is that it is presumptuous to think that we know how God created people.

This is an ironic statement - it is actually the creationist who claims certainty of knowledge and is therefore presumptuous. The evolutionist is more cautious, declaring that while the evidence for evolution is indeed overwhelming, it is at least possible that the theory is wrong.

Now about this "evolution of humans past the initial creation" business, I do not know enough about the theory of evolution to critique this odd mix of "creation then evolution" that you are proposing as a possibility, I suspect others here will show how the evidence really does not allow that possiblity (at least without putting God in the position of willfully "planting misleading evidence".

 

[expos4ever]

The theory say that God uses mistakes or errors to create us. I can not think of any nonsense greater than to say God uses mistakes and errors. In fact errors in DNA tend to fix and repair themselves.

I am not sure exactly what you are saying, but you may be using a misleading argument that creationists often use.

The creationist sometimes argues that since mutations are copying errors, such mutations cannot possibly lead to "improvements" over time as the theory asserts - "how can an error lead to an improvement?" is the implication. Whether deliberate or not, this is a profound misrepresentation - copying errors can and do lead to improvements that are favoured by natural selection.

Again, perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying so please correct me if this is the case.

 

[The Barbarian]

I think that God takes responsibility for allowing them to be deceived.

More than that.

2 Thessolonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[2PhiloVoid]

More than that.

2 Thessolonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

While I see your point, I think we should keep in mind that exegetically and hermeneutically, this verse likely has a lot more to do with political events becoming spiritual events than it does with how we each may epistemically appraise the efficacy of scientific thought and research.

In other words, I personally think the application of this verse has more to do with certain political tensions in the Middle-East, as an example, than it does with Darwin's discoveries made while roaming about the Galapagos Islands.

 

[The Barbarian]

While I see your point, I think we should keep in mind that exegetically and hermeneutically, this verse likely has a lot more to do with political events becoming spiritual events than it does with how we each may epistemically appraise the efficacy of scientific thought and research.

It has to do with the claim that God cannot deceive. Not so much about scientific research.

2 Thessolonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It has to do with the claim that God cannot deceive. Not so much about scientific research.

2 Thessolonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Right. I agree with you, BUT I don't think the Old Testament theology Paul likely drew from implies that God Himself lies but rather that He "sends" messengers (or evil spirits) upon people who have already long decided to resist Him.

That's all I'm getting at. And you're right, it doesn't have anything really to do with scientific research. So, essentially, I'm agreeing with you but I'm also aiming to clarify.

 

[olgamc]

That is like the pastor that says I can sin all I want, I just do not want to sin. Because when we are born again we take on a new nature in Christ. There is a lot God can not do. He can not lie, cheat, steal, trick or deceive people. It is not in His nature or His way of doing things.

Well yes, that is of course implied. The context here is creation. God is God, He can create however He decides to create, according of course to His character.

 

[olgamc]

There are no moral implications. Whatever God did, it is good and proper.

Exactly. Moral implications do not come from what God did. Everything God does is obviously good and proper. But our understanding of evolution and our applying it to creation of humans results in negative moral implications, which is why I am venturing to say that God probably did not use evolution to create humans.

 

[Diamond7]

I am venturing to say that God probably did not use evolution to create humans.

I wonder what the difference is between evolution and the circle of life.

 

[olgamc]

Very much like being a Christian and being born again and a new creation in Christ.

No, that's redemption. So first people were created in God's image, which includes, among other things, moral capacity (ability to know good and evil), coupled with being righteous. Then Adam sinned - righteousness lost. Then Christ died. Then we believe in Him and become born again, new creation - righteousness restored.

 

[Diamond7]

righteousness restored

So it is going to take God 7,000 years to repair something He created in a week? At least with dispensationalism creation and redemption takes the same amount of time.

 

[olgamc]

I wonder what the difference is between evolution and the circle of life.

I don't think you've read my earlier posts. You can see this one and this one.

 

[olgamc]

So it is going to take God 7,000 years to repair something He created in a week? At least with dispensationalism creation and redemption takes the same amount of time.

Sure, God can take however long He wants to do things. He is patient, and personally, I really appreciate that.

 

[olgamc]

There is no error. You are assuming something that is incorrect - that there is not direct evidence that humans evolved - you imply that while there is evidence that evolution is real, the step to include humans in the evolution model is an unsubstantiated leap of faith.

No, I did not say that it is an unsubstantiated leap of faith. I said the opposite in fact. I said that we see evidence, then we make a theory, then we confirm the theory (more or less) by more evidence, then we apply the theory to ourselves. It is definitely substantiated. But it violates the Scripture. So then people go and say that Scripture must be wrong. Well no, Scripture is not wrong, but our logic might be. The error in our logic is that we have one theory and one theory only, and we do not allow the possibility for God to be God and work outside of our theory.

I guarantee this is not case - while I am not prepared to make the case right now (in this post), I am certain there is direct evidence that humans have evolved.

I can guarantee there is no direct evidence that people have evolved. We will never be able to definitively trace our lineage all the way back to the primordial soup, simply because we can never uncover and examine every single one of Adam's ancestors.

This is an ironic statement - it is actually the creationist who claims certainty of knowledge and is therefore presumptuous. The evolutionist is more cautious, declaring that while the evidence for evolution is indeed overwhelming, it is at least possible that the theory is wrong.

I am a bit stunned... are you saying that it is presumptuous for a Christian to believe that God created everything including people, and that God could have done it in whichever way He wanted? I mean, ok, I guess I am presumptuous then. LOL

Now about this "evolution of humans past the initial creation" business, I do not know enough about the theory of evolution to critique this odd mix of "creation then evolution" that you are proposing as a possibility, I suspect others here will show how the evidence really does not allow that possiblity (at least without putting God in the position of willfully "planting misleading evidence".

I don't know if it's willfully planting misleading evidence, or allowing us to be mislead by our own bias. Take changing water to wine for example. Did Jesus willfully mislead the banquet master? If we choose to believe that God is not the Creator to begin with, and make that our bias, then yes, we are going to be deceived.

 

[olgamc]

More than that.

2 Thessolonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You are taking it out of context and making God to be a deceiver. That is not what the passage actually says.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

Some points here:
1. "That they should believe a lie" - what lie? The lie that the lawless one perpetuates - that he is God.
2. "That they should believe a lie" - who is they? The perishing ones, the ones that have refused to love the truth and have delighted in wickedness. In other words, people who have already first willfully chosen to be deceived.
3. "Strong delusion" - what is it? The man of lawlessness, who works the way Satan does. So it is not God that is deceiving people, it is the man of lawlessness.
4. "God shall send" - how does this happen? The passage says that the power of lawlessness is already at work, but is being restrained. God "sends" it when He stops holding it back.
5. When is the man of lawlessness supposed to be revealed? After the rebellion.

Ok, so now we can put it all back together. First there is a rebellion where people refuse to love the truth and be saved and choose to delight in wickedness instead. Then God, who has been holding back the man of lawlessness, finally decides to stop holding him back. Then the lawless one deceives the people who have already chosen wickedness over God, so they believe the lie that this man is God, and become condemned.

In conclusion, God does not deceive people - wickedness does, coupled with Satan's lies.

 

[Jonaitis]

Do we believe in any scientific discovery in the sense of spiritual faith?

We should! Science is the direct observation and understanding of the natural world. If we can't believe what is in front of us, how much less spiritual matters?

 

[olgamc]

I wonder what the difference is between evolution and the circle of life.

I guess I see it more like a spiral with a start and end? Creation had a beginning, it will have an end, and in between it goes around in circles.

 

[olgamc]

We should! Science is the direct observation and understanding of the natural world. If we can't believe what is in front of us, how much less spiritual matters?

Just as long as our observation and understanding of the natural world doesn't cloud our understanding of spiritual matters. E.g. Nicodemus and being born again.

John 3:3-10
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

 

[The Barbarian]

You are taking it out of context and making God to be a deceiver. That is not what the passage actually says.

So He deceived them, but it was for a good reason. O.K.