Female pastors (limited role)

[Dietrich Johnson]

1 Timothy 2 speaks about women not teaching men, and 1 Corinthians speaks about women remaining silent in "the churches" (KJV). Is this to be applied universally, or when read in context of the original audience this was intended for is there any room for women today to teach (for example) a Sunday school class for adults that both men and women attend?

 

[All Glory To God]

It is well known fact for anyone who has read the scriptures that women do not have a licence to be Pastors or Deacons. The thing that interests me is how the Biblical marriage contract is connected to women being Pastors. Because the Bible commands wife's to obey their husbands. So if your husband does not give you permission to be a pastor, it seems the whole idea of personal calling by the spirit for women to be Pastors is in error and indeed a very strict definition of what a pastor should be is described in the Bible. People might argue that wife's are not obligated to obey their husbands but if that's the case is the husband free from his marital duty to love his wife? Can't have it both ways and be consistent at the same time.

 

[DragonFox91]

Baptist churches are very strict about this. No female deacons, elders, or music leaders either. Sunday School teachers have to have direct male oversight. Only exception is nursery.

 

[HantsUK]

Baptist churches are very strict about this. No female deacons, elders, or music leaders either. Sunday School teachers have to have direct male oversight. Only exception is nursery.

No, just some (usually American) Baptist Churches. It is not the case in England.

 

[Paidiske]

Because the Bible commands wife's to obey their husbands. So if your husband does not give you permission to be a pastor, it seems the whole idea of personal calling by the spirit for women to be Pastors is in error

Reading this, I am curious - and I am asking a sincere question - what if the husband not only gives permission but encourages the wife to be a pastor? Would that change your answer to the situation?

 

[BBAS 64]

Reading this, I am curious - and I am asking a sincere question - what if the husband not only gives permission but encourages the wife to be a pastor? Would that change your answer to the situation?

Good Day, Paidiske

I would suggest the Husband get a better set of accountability partners, and encourage him to correctly understand scripture under the leadership (elders and deacons) of his Baptist church.

I would start here:

In Him,

Bill

 

[All Glory To God]

Reading this, I am curious - and I am asking a sincere question - what if the husband not only gives permission but encourages the wife to be a pastor? Would that change your answer to the situation?

Well my point is focused on the opposite side of the idea to women being called into the ministry to be Pastors.

Let's think this through. A woman is called by the spirit to be a pastor. She consults her husband about the issue and asks his permission to be a Pastor. The husband denies and says no. This basically means a man (the husband) just thwarted the Holy spirit and God's will. If this was a genuine call from God to one of his saints to undergo a mission, how in the world can it be undone by some random guy? By design it is contradictory.

And I am not just rallying against women. Many people are omitted in Pauls Pastor design. Gays, trans, single men, men of bad character or reputation and the childless with perhaps the exception of a man and his wife having adopted children. So he can be examined and seen to run his house properly. What business does a man have running a church if he can't run his house properly. It's strict but necessary. Look at the the house of God today!

 

[DragonFox91]

No, just some Baptist Churches. It is not the case in England.

that's no good.

Can't say I'd be a Baptist in England.

OP is in California btw

 

[HantsUK]

And I am not just rallying against women.

Many men as well.

Many people are omitted in Pauls Pastor design. ... single men,... the childless with perhaps the exception of a man and his wife having adopted children.

Jesus was single and had no children.

Paul was single. (1 Cor 7:8)

Some examples of women in leadership or speaking positions in the New Testament:

Philip the evangelist had 4 unmarried daughters who were prophets.

Phoebe

Priscilla

Junias (called an outstanding apostle by Paul)

 

[All Glory To God]

Many men as well.


. . .

If you don't fit the criteria of pastor, don't get angry at me. Take it up with God.

 

[HantsUK]

If you don't fit the criteria of pastor, don't get angry at me. Take it up with God.

So, according to your interpretation, neither Jesus or Paul would qualify? You also ignore Paul's teaching on singleness. And there were women in leadership in the New Testament. Granted, no many. But some.

 

[All Glory To God]

So, according to your interpretation, neither Jesus or Paul would qualify?

Well Christ founded the Church. He owns it, why would he work for himself? And Paul was an Apostle of God receiving divine revelation.

You also ignore Paul's teaching on singleness.

How so?

And there were women in leadership in the New Testament. Granted, no many. But some.

Actually, there were not. Christ was a man, John the Baptist was a Man, the twelve Apostles were men, Paul was a man, Christs religious opponents (the pharisees) were men. Women did not have power.

 

[AgapeBible]

Ever hear of Deborah, Miriam, Zelophead's daughters, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, Jehosheba, Esther, Ruth, the widow of Zarephah, Naaman's slave girl, Rizpah who was Saul's concubine who protected the bodies of her sons from dishonor and decay, Abigail, who humbled herself before David and brought him the food and wine her stingy, rude husband would not give; later on after her husband died she married David.

In the new testament there was Mary, mother of Christ, greatly honored, perhaps honored too much by Catholics. There was her cousin Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist. There was Mary Magdalene, forever thankful to Jesus Christ for freeing her from 7 demons. Then there was Mary sister of Martha and Lazarus. There was a woman named Susanna, and then Joanna, who supported Jesus from there own means. It is rumored that Claudia, wife of Pontius Pilate, was sympathetic to Jesus Christ, the Christian cause. There was Lydia, Syntyche, Chloe, Lois, Eunice, Persis, a lot of women leaders! And yes, the early church had women deacons.

Paul encouraged single people, both men and women, to stay single so they could concentrate about serving God and not their spouses.

 

[lismore]

1 Timothy 2 speaks about women not teaching men, and 1 Corinthians speaks about women remaining silent in "the churches" (KJV). Is this to be applied universally, or when read in context of the original audience this was intended for is there any room for women today to teach (for example) a Sunday school class for adults that both men and women attend?

Hello! Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path (Psalm 119:105).
If we leave the light then we don't know where we're going. God Bless

 

[AgapeBible]

Did you know the Bible has been, and continues to be, used for evil? First off, when Lucifer rebelled, the world was perfect and there was no need to rebel, so don't go calling me the devil. Second off, I am not responsible for the sins of Eve and Adam. Women have been abused for billions of years, it is only in recent times we have been liberated and are seen as equal to a man.

Not everything in the Bible is morally right. The Bible supports slavery, and the beating and rape of slaves. It supports the rape of women who are not slaves, basically women are chattel.
It supports racism and genocide. It supports violence and killing. a lot of old testament laws are cruel, the punishment is death. Art is confused with idol worship and is forbidden, fun is forbidden, so people seeking fun find themselves in sinful, forbidden things.

That is the negative side of the Bible, thankfully most of the Bible is not like that. There is love, faith and hope. Jesus teaches us righteousness, he teaches us love and kindness. He tells us to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Samaritans can be neighbors. Jesus tells us to love our enemies. What does this mean? If the devil Satan is my enemy, should I love him? Then the Bible says love what is good and hate what is evil. Overcome evil with good. Perhaps I should love the old testament, and see it as hard work or strenuating exercise I must do in order to be strong enough to obey Jesus words in the new testament. Jesus said I would need new wine skins. I think we are born again each day, we are a new creation.

 

[Tuur]

Here is the point of the question for me:

We have statements in the New Testament on women in the church, and those seem to exclude being a pastor. Is there also a Biblical argument for women pastors?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is the point of the question for me:

We have statements in the New Testament on women in the church, and those seem to exclude being a pastor. Is there also a Biblical argument for women pastors?

Actually, the New Testament is amazing quiet about pastors. They are never mentioned in any of the gospels or in the book of the Acts, nor in Revelation. We have a brief use of the word in Ephesians and in II Peter. Strangely, there is much less mention of pastors in the New Testament than there is of Mary. Thus, the Catholics have a larger biblical set of verses to build their doctrines concerning Mary (which, in reality, is virtually nothing) than Christians have to understand pastors.

Nowhere in the New Testament is there any mention of a professional class of clergy. The only whiff might be in references to priests, but priests are specifically defined as being composed of all believers in the church of God and not a specially ordained body.

All believers, male and female, rich and poor, Jew and Gentile, are defined as priests before God. Moreover, all believers have been granted spiritual gifts, which are discussed at some length in four passages. Spiritual gifts are not just for specially educated folks or those who have undergone a special religious rite of ordination.

So, my question is - if pastors are so vitally important to the church, why did God, in His manifest wisdom, fail to provide a job description and qualifications for them?

That is not to say that God did not specify duties and qualifications for leaders in the church. He did that in I Timothy and in Titus, but they are not pastors. They are called elders (literally elderly folks) and deacons (meaning servants). Moreover, elders and deacons are multiple in each church, not singular. Elders are the husbands of one wife with children. Deacons are also married (possibly to women who may be termed deaconesses) and with children.

 

[DragonFox91]

Elder is literally bishop (overseer).

bbbbbb, before the discourse on bishops & elders, Paul specifically addresses women. "A woman is to learn quietly w/ full submission. I do not permit women to teach."
Paul gives his reason. "For Adam was formed first, than Eve. & Adam was not decieved but the woman was deceived. But she will be saved." Do you not see how just b/c 'pastor' isn't spelled out for you, the topic is indeed addressed?

I have a new thought. It's been said before that perhaps this teaching was just for this time period. But then people say 'no, because Paul explains why.' My new thought is:
Adam & Eve were the first people, our parents. Did Paul only want women not to teach because it had to be handed down by men first? & Then after the parents Adam & Eve (Paul & the Apostles) passed, then women could teach? If Eve can't teach her descendants, then nothing she learned will pass.
Could that be the explanation?

Bottom line: it's clear reading to me 1 Timothy what Paul wants. He does single out women's role. The question is, was it for that specific time?

I've been struggling w/ this issue. My family's denomination accepts women pastors. The one at the church we attend is only an associate pastor, which I guess I'm fine w/. My concern is the denomination as a whole would allow her be the head pastor.

I also attend the Baptist church w/ friends. They are a lot more strict on this. So I'm having to reconcile my family's faith w/ that what I read in the Bible & what is taught at the Baptist church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Elder is literally bishop (overseer).

bbbbbb, before the discourse on bishops & elders, Paul specifically addresses women. "A woman is to learn quietly w/ full submission. I do not permit women to teach."
Paul gives his reason. "For Adam was formed first, than Eve. & Adam was not decieved but the woman was deceived. But she will be saved." Do you not see how just b/c 'pastor' isn't spelled out for you, the topic is indeed addressed?

I have a new thought. It's been said before that perhaps this teaching was just for this time period. But then people say 'no, because Paul explains why.' My new thought is:
Adam & Eve were the first people, our parents. Did Paul only want women not to teach because it had to be handed down by men first? & Then after the parents Adam & Eve (Paul & the Apostles) passed, then women could teach?
Could that be the explanation?

Bottom line: it's clear reading to me 1 Timothy what Paul wants. He does single out women's role. The question is, was it for that specific time?

I've been struggling w/ this issue. My family's denomination accepts women pastors. The one at the church we attend is only an associate pastor, which I guess I'm fine w/. My concern is the denomination as a whole would allow her be the head pastor.

I also attend the Baptist church w/ friends. They are a lot more strict on this. So I'm having to reconcile my family's faith w/ that what I read in the Bible & what is taught at the Baptist church.

Yes, I have encountered this ideas. It becomes a very slippery slope to dismiss scriptural teaching as being for only that particular period of time. If one chooses to go down that road, then there is not a single doctrine in the Bible that cannot logically be disregarded. Unlike yourself, I grew up in a denomination which had relegated the Bible to the scrap bin of history and was busy developing its theology in order to be "relevant" to my generation. The net result was the my generation has generally walked away from that denomination and it will not be long before it becomes a footnote in history.

 

[DragonFox91]

There's no other way to reconcile it w/ what you were saying. Paul is clear in I Timothy. I agree we shouldn't be using 'it was for that time' as a way to modernize theology. That's why I'm disagreeing w/ my family's church denomination.

Also, I wouldn't say they the church I grew up in threw the Bible into the scrap-bin, but I do see areas I disagree or disagreed w/, & this is one of them. (Church I grew up in different then family church now, but denomination is same)

Also, tuur, to echo bbbbb, the most common argument I see for women pastors is the 'priesthood of all believers'. But I'm not sure if that's the same. All being a 'priest' means is you can go to God. You are the priest. You don't need a priest. B/c there is no sacrifice anymore.