Faith Precedes Regeneration #6

[Rick Otto]

gmm4j,

regeneration and belief are spontaneous. Therefore, you don't have a "life" BEFORE belief. However, regeneration is what causes the belief.

Exactly right.
Regeneration is the cause, faith is the effect.

 

[gmm4j]

Exactly right.
Regeneration is the cause, faith is the effect.

If regeneration is the cause and faith is the effect, then they do not happen simultaneously. One must come first in order to cause the other.
However, life cannot come before faith. It is not Scriptural and if you had life before being justified by faith, then it is a perishing life that is under wrath until faith is produced. Sorry, regeneration does not cause faith. You cannot provide any Scripture that says it does. Faith comes by revelation and life comes by faith.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Well, bouncing around are we. No scripture? 1 John 5:1 is explicit. Regeneration is the CAUSE faith is the result/evidence. gmm4j what comes first after striking a match heat or light? They happen at the exact same time, yet it is the heat that produces the fire which produces the light. You again are making a a temporal argument when it is a logical argument.

Your argument is the one that is not logical OR Biblical.

You say you must have faith that produces regeneration. You have a NATURAL man: that understands spiritual things (the gospel) and obeying God's command's (repent and believe) and is pleasing God (expressing faith) and being a friend of God (loving Him); when the Bible says: the natural man CAN NOT understand spiritual things, CAN NOT obey God's commands, can not please God, and is at enmity with God. You have a man with a stone heart doing something that requires a heart of flesh.

THESE are logical conflagrations you have.

Do you take a bath in order to take a shower? What's the point of "having a new heart" to obey God's commands, when "in the flesh" you already have accomplished and obeyed the greatest command? What's the point of the new heart? It's pointless, illogical and unbiblical. God must give you a new heart IN ORDER to obey God, and even at that the covenant promise is that GOD will CAUSE you to obey His commands.

 

[Rick Otto]

If regeneration is the cause and faith is the effect, then they do not happen simultaneously. One must come first in order to cause the other.
However, life cannot come before faith. It is not Scriptural and if you had life before being justified by faith, then it is a perishing life that is under wrath until faith is produced. Sorry, regeneration does not cause faith. You cannot provide any Scripture that says it does. Faith comes by revelation and life comes by faith.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

No apologies necessary.
Just show me where the scripture says Faith comes by revelation.
If you haven't been given ears to hear, the gospel is just foolishness.
1Cor1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[gmm4j]

Well, bouncing around are we. No scripture? 1 John 5:1 is explicit. Regeneration is the CAUSE faith is the result/evidence. gmm4j what comes first after striking a match heat or light? They happen at the exact same time, yet it is the heat that produces the fire which produces the light. You again are making a a temporal argument when it is a logical argument.

Your argument is the one that is not logical OR Biblical.

You say you must have faith that produces regeneration.

And you say you must have regeneration to produce faith. They do not happen simultaneously. One comes before the other logically and temporally. If heat produces light then heat comes first logically and temporally. The time span may not be distinguishable to you, but one must come before the other. And, by the way, faith comes prior to regeneration.

 

[gmm4j]

You say you must have faith that produces regeneration. You have a NATURAL man: that understands spiritual things (the gospel) and obeying God's command's (repent and believe) and is pleasing God (expressing faith) and being a friend of God (loving Him); when the Bible says: the natural man CAN NOT understand spiritual things, CAN NOT obey God's commands, can not please God, and is at enmity with God. You have a man with a stone heart doing something that requires a heart of flesh.

THESE are logical conflagrations you have.

Fallen man has the ability to believe the Gospel. The man you are referring to has SET his mind on the things of the sinful nature.

You have to deal with why satan steals the Word from the heart of an unbeliever... "so that they may not believe and be saved."

 

[gmm4j]

No apologies necessary.
Just show me where the scripture says Faith comes by revelation.
If you haven't been given ears to hear, the gospel is just foolishness.
1Cor1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Matt 16:15-18
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


Please show me where Scripture says that faith comes by regeneration.

 

[gmm4j]

Do you take a bath in order to take a shower? What's the point of "having a new heart" to obey God's commands, when "in the flesh" you already have accomplished and obeyed the greatest command? What's the point of the new heart? It's pointless, illogical and unbiblical. God must give you a new heart IN ORDER to obey God, and even at that the covenant promise is that GOD will CAUSE you to obey His commands.

The point of new heart is to live a life that is being sanctified unto the Lord. What is illogical and unbiblical is to think that you can have a new heart before it has been united to Christ and made righteous by faith.

 

[Rick Otto]

Rom 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Matt 16:15-18
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

This proves my point. The unregenerate do not see what scripture reveals to the regenerated though they read or be preached to because the unregenerate are still perishing (unsaved - unregenerate).
1Cor1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

He isn't addressing unbelievers. He isn't writing this to the unregenerate.



Please show me where Scripture says that faith comes by regeneration.
John 3:3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You can't have faith in nothing, which is all you see & hear about spiritual things if you are unregenerate.

1Cor2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Rick,

Rom 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

This proves my point. The unregenerate do not see what scripture reveals to the regenerated though they read or be preached to because the unregenerate are still perishing (unsaved - unregenerate).
1Cor1:18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You are adding regenerated/unregenerated to the text. Simply the revelation brought Peter to the place of recognizing Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God. Regeneration is not mentioned - you would think it would be.

And, yes the message of the cross is foolish to those who do not believe it.

 

[gmm4j]

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

He isn't addressing unbelievers. He isn't writing this to the unregenerate.

What? He's referring to those who already believe and have life?

He's stating the purpose of the recorded miracles... SO THEY MAY BELIEVE and HAVE LIFE. They wouldn't need life if he were referring to people who already believed, would they?

 

[gmm4j]

Please show me where Scripture says that faith comes by regeneration.
John 3:3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You can't have faith in nothing, which is all you see & hear about spiritual things if you are unregenerate.

1Cor2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Faith must come before regeneration, otherwise, you have living regenerated, born of the Spirit people who are not yet united to Christ or justified by faith, and they are still unrighteous and under wrath but have been born again. Our unity with Christ by faith makes us righteous and positions us to be born as sons into the family of God.

Rom 8:10
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1. Righteous by faith.
2. spirit comes alive because of righteousness by faith

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The order presented in these verses is:

1. Belief (those who believed)
2. Right to become children of God / Born of God (Regeneration)

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The order presented in this verse is:

1. Recorded miracles
2. Belief
3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

It would have been foolish of John to write, “that by believing you may have life” if it were by having new life that they would believe.

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves byobeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The word of God is imperishable seed that must be received/believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

The answers to the apostle Paul’s rhetorical questions in the book of Galatians also seem to prove that belief precedes regeneration.

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spiritandwork miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is received

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is given

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new) hearts.

Galatians 3:26
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Through faith you are born into the family. You become a spiritual son by faith.

1.Faith
2.Regeneration into a spiritual son.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. Word of truth
2. Belief in truth (assumed)
3. Birth (regeneration)

1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

1. Belief
2. Life (regeneration)

Side note: New eternal life begins with the new birth / life (regeneration), unless you believe that a new creation can cease to be a new creature in Christ and be in need of being born again again?

Ephesians 1:13 describes the order in this way,

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in himwith a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1.Hear the Word of truth
2.Believe (having believed) the Word of truth.
3.Included in Christ / Sealed by the Spirit

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

1. Repentance to…
2. Life (regeneration)

1 John 5:10-12
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How can you have life (regeneration)(the Son) without belief? How can you have life before you have the Son? If you do not have the Son by first being united to Him by faith, then you do not have life (regeneration).

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Life (regeneration - You are born to life) is only “in” Christ, not “outside of”, and “prior to” Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

Faith must come before regeneration, otherwise, you have living regenerated, born of the Spirit people who are not yet united to Christ or justified by faith, and they are still unrighteous and under wrath but have been born again. Our unity with Christ by faith makes us righteous and positions us to be born as sons into the family of God.

With life comes it's proof - faith.
So no, there are no faithless born-again people.
That is as untenable as spiritualy dead people having faith.

 

[gmm4j]

With life comes it's proof - faith.
So no, there are no faithless born-again people.
That is as untenable as spiritualy dead people having faith.

How do you have life in Christ without being united to Christ by faith?

 

[ronathanedwards]

How can you understand something that you CAN NOT understand?
How can you breath when you are dead?

Again, you are ignoring the fact that this is a logical argument and not a temporal one. There is NO MOMENT where one is regenerated and NOT believing. Therefore your argument fails. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[gmm4j]

How can you understand something that you CAN NOT understand?
How can you breath when you are dead?

Again, you are ignoring the fact that this is a logical argument and not a temporal one. There is NO MOMENT where one is regenerated and NOT believing. Therefore your argument fails. Why is that so hard to understand?

How did you eat pizza when you were dead?

 

[ronathanedwards]

We are talking spiritually. A spiritually deaf person can not HEAR, they must be given hearing, eyes to see, UNDERSTANDING. The natural person DOES NOT understand. You can not give one verse that says "in their natural state" they "understood" the things of God. NOWHERE....

 

[SolaOne]

Ronathan, please help me with this verse:

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

This says that the dead will hear and then life will come. The order seems to be: dead, hear, life

 

[ronathanedwards]

I have no problem with that order whatsoever. That however isn't an all inclusive list in the ordo salutis, nor was it the intention of the author to give one. It is solely and completely the work of God. Lazarus was dead, Jesus gave the command to come forth, He heard and lived. It is a perfect analogy of salvation. Jesus' purpose in salvation never fails.

But how did Lazarus hear "physically" when He was dead? Hmmmm...

The command to live instantaneously requires all to happen at the same time. However there is a logical sequence in the spontaneous event. Regeneration allows one to hear, believe and have life in the same moment. Yet, without God's sending the Spirit to regenerate, man will remain dead and will not hear and will not believe.

Regeneration enables a dead man to hear, see, believe, live. THAT is how "the dead will hear and live". Most passages are not all inclusive teachings explaining how every little detail happens. You must systematically refer to the explicit to govern the implicit.

 

[ronathanedwards]

Dead IN sin and dead TO sin mean two different things "Boo Boo Bear"... keep your posts up so they can be cross examined. "Truth invites scrutiny; whereas, error runs from it".