Faith Precedes Regeneration #6

[gmm4j]

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. A purified heart is a regenerated heart, and it is regenerated or purified by faith. This does not say that by having a regenerated pure heart, it caused them to have faith. Instead, impure hearts are regenerated and made pure hearts by having faith first.

Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new/regenerated) hearts.

 

[gmm4j]

The following in red is CalledOutOne's response to Acts 15:9, taken from Steal From A Dead Man?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).

So, if I understand you right, the new spiritually born again heart is not pure.

Here is what ARM writes about regeneration:

Nicodemus and Re-birth
Posted 27th March 2010 at 01:00 AM by AMR
From the preceding we see that regeneration is a birth (John. 3:3-8; John 1:13; I Peter 1:23-25; I John 3:9; I John 5:1), a creation (Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24), the Divine creative act of speaking into existence that which previously did not exist, a resurrection (Ephesians 2:1; I John 3:14; John 5:24), the Divine act of giving life to one who is dead in their trespasses and in their sins… Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. That regeneration is an instantaneous change has two implications: (1) that regeneration is not a work that is gradually prepared in the soul, as the Roman Catholics and all Semi-Pelagians teach; there is no intermediate stage between life and death; one either lives or is dead; and (2) that regeneration is not a gradual process like sanctification.


So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified by faith.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

 

[Foghorn]

The following in red is CalledOutOne's response to Acts 15:9, taken from Steal From A Dead Man?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).

So, if I understand you right, the new spiritually born again heart is not pure.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 10:9-11. Remember we are given a new heart, the old man with the heart of stone cannot confess resulting in salvation.
What a great thing the Almighty has done! Glory to His name alone!

Man has a responsibility, man has to make the profession, God cannot do it for them. However, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3.

Here is what ARM writes about regeneration:

Nicodemus and Re-birth
Posted 27th March 2010 at 01:00 AM by AMR
From the preceding we see that regeneration is a birth (John. 3:3-8; John 1:13; I Peter 1:23-25; I John 3:9; I John 5:1), a creation (Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24), the Divine creative act of speaking into existence that which previously did not exist, a resurrection (Ephesians 2:1; I John 3:14; John 5:24), the Divine act of giving life to one who is dead in their trespasses and in their sins… Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. That regeneration is an instantaneous change has two implications: (1) that regeneration is not a work that is gradually prepared in the soul, as the Roman Catholics and all Semi-Pelagians teach; there is no intermediate stage between life and death; one either lives or is dead; and (2) that regeneration is not a gradual process like sanctification.

Regeneration and faith are simultaneous.

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified by faith.

If that was the case, it could argue it.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

This is speaking about the process of salvation, God the Author and Finisher, if it was not explained we could easily give the glory to man as many do, knowingly or UN-knowingly even so.

Regeneration proceeding faith is explained in that order for God's glory, not that we should boast. However, I believe the truth of it is regeneration and faith are simultaneous. There is no saving faith without regeneration.

Hope this helps.

 

[gmm4j]

Originally Posted by gmm4j
The following in red is CalledOutOne's response to Acts 15:9, taken from Steal From A Dead Man?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).

So, if I understand you right, the new spiritually born again heart is not pure.


Hey Foghorn (you are in red),

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 10:9-11.
Remember we are given a new heart, the old man with the heart of stone cannot confess resulting in salvation.


Sorry, I don’t agree. I believe the old man can believe and confess what God has done (provided salvation) and results in justification, regeneration, sanctification, and ultimately glorification.


What a great thing the Almighty has done! Glory to His name alone!


Amen and amen!

Man has a responsibility, man has to make the profession, God cannot do it for them.

I agree.

However, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith.


Don’t agree.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3.


Amen. After you have received the King by faith, He regenerates you to be able to see, enter, and experience the benefits of the Kingdom upon the earth as it is in heaven!


Here is what ARM writes about regeneration:

Nicodemus and Re-birth
Posted 27th March 2010 at 01:00 AM by AMR
From the preceding we see that regeneration is a birth (John. 3:3-8; John 1:13; I Peter 1:23-25; I John 3:9; I John 5:1), a creation (Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24), the Divine creative act of speaking into existence that which previously did not exist, a resurrection (Ephesians 2:1; I John 3:14; John 5:24), the Divine act of giving life to one who is dead in their trespasses and in their sins… Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. That regeneration is an instantaneous change has two implications: (1) that regeneration is not a work that is gradually prepared in the soul, as the Roman Catholics and all Semi-Pelagians teach; there is no intermediate stage between life and death; one either lives or is dead; and (2) that regeneration is not a gradual process like sanctification.


Regeneration and faith are simultaneous.

But, you just said above…


However, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith.

So, if according to you, the one (faith) is received by or through the other (regeneration), it is necessary for the other (regeneration) to be first and not simultaneous. It can't be simultaneous. It can be immediately after, but not simultaneous. When pressed, the Calvinist position has to be that regeneration must come first. Even if you read Spurgeon’s well laid out argument for simultaneous Faith and Regeneration, you will find in the ordering of his verbiage, he places regeneration first followed by faith.

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified by faith.

If that was the case, it could argue it.

It is the case, if as you state, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith. Righteousness is not applied until faith, but you have the newly created heart coming first, through which the gift of faith comes and righteousness is applied. So according to this order, the new heart must still be impure and wicked until faith applies righteousness.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.


This is speaking about the process of salvation, God the Author and Finisher, if it was not explained we could easily give the glory to man as many do, knowingly or UN-knowingly even so.

I agree.

Regeneration proceeding faith is explained in that order for God's glory, not that we should boast.

It doesn’t say regeneration precedes faith. It says their hearts were changed (made pure) by faith. When it says by faith, it is indicating the means through which a thing is introduced. This necessitates that the means (faith) through which the thing is introduced must be there first. You are receiving this message by the Internet. The Internet came before this message.

We can’t boast. He has done all the work. We are only told to believe that He’s done the work. I have never known anyone to boast about his or her great ability to believe or receive a gift. In fact, it takes humility to receive, not a boastful pride. And, anyway, God does not consider faith a work.

However, I believe the truth of it is regeneration and faith are simultaneous.

I don’t believe scripturally or logically that it can be simultaneous as you say. And, again I would point out that even with your description faith comes after or results from regeneration.

There is no saving faith without regeneration.

There is no regeneration without saving faith.

Hope this helps.

Blessings!

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

-----

 

[Foghorn]

Originally Posted by gmm4j
The following in red is CalledOutOne's response to Acts 15:9, taken from Steal From A Dead Man?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Here purification means conversion and not regeneration. The Spirit first regenerates, then gives faith and repentance (which is conversion), by which we are justified (ie. made pure).

So, if I understand you right, the new spiritually born again heart is not pure.


Hey Foghorn (you are in red),
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” Romans 10:9-11.
Remember we are given a new heart, the old man with the heart of stone cannot confess resulting in salvation.


Sorry, I don’t agree. I believe the old man can believe and confess what God has done (provided salvation) and results in justification, regeneration, sanctification, and ultimately glorification.
What a great thing the Almighty has done! Glory to His name alone!
Amen and amen!

Man has a responsibility, man has to make the profession, God cannot do it for them.

I agree.

However, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith.


Don’t agree.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3.


Amen. After you have received the King by faith, He regenerates you to be able to see, enter, and experience the benefits of the Kingdom upon the earth as it is in heaven!



Here is what ARM writes about regeneration:

Nicodemus and Re-birth
Posted 27th March 2010 at 01:00 AM by AMR
From the preceding we see that regeneration is a birth (John. 3:3-8; John 1:13; I Peter 1:23-25; I John 3:9; I John 5:1), a creation (Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24), the Divine creative act of speaking into existence that which previously did not exist, a resurrection (Ephesians 2:1; I John 3:14; John 5:24), the Divine act of giving life to one who is dead in their trespasses and in their sins… Regeneration, exclusively a Divine act, is an instantaneous change of a man's nature, affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally. That regeneration is an instantaneous change has two implications: (1) that regeneration is not a work that is gradually prepared in the soul, as the Roman Catholics and all Semi-Pelagians teach; there is no intermediate stage between life and death; one either lives or is dead; and (2) that regeneration is not a gradual process like sanctification.


Regeneration and faith are simultaneous.

But, you just said above…
However, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith.

So, if the one (faith) is received by or through the other (regeneration), it is necessary for the other (regeneration) to be first and not simultaneous. It can be immediately after. But, the Calvinist position is that regeneration must come first. Even if you read Spurgeon’s well laid out argument for simultaneous Faith and Regeneration, you will find in the ordering of his verbiage, he places regeneration first followed by faith.

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified by faith.

If that was the case, it could argue it.
It is the case, if as you state, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith. Righteousness is not applied until faith, but you have the newly created heart coming first, through which the gift of faith comes and righteousness is applied. So according to this order, the new heart must still be impure and wicked until faith applies righteousness.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.


This is speaking about the process of salvation, God the Author and Finisher, if it was not explained we could easily give the glory to man as many do, knowingly or UN-knowingly even so.

I agree.

Regeneration proceeding faith is explained in that order for God's glory, not that we should boast.
It doesn’t say regeneration precedes faith. It says their hearts were changed (made pure) by faith. When it says by faith, it is indicating the means through which a thing is introduced. This necessitates that the means (faith) through which the thing is introduced must be there first. You are receiving this message by the Internet. The Internet came before this message.

We can’t boast. He has done all the work. We are only told to believe that He’s done the work. I have never known anyone to boast about his or her great ability to believe or receive a gift. In fact, it takes humility to receive, not a boastful pride. And, anyway, God does not consider faith a work.

However, I believe the truth of it is regeneration and faith are simultaneous.

I don’t believe scripturally or logically that it can be simultaneous as you say. And, again I would point out that even with your description faith comes after or results from regeneration.

There is no saving faith without regeneration.

There is no regeneration without saving faith.

Hope this helps.

Blessings!

Well brother, it is good we have the grace to disagree. I am sure we will come across these subjects elsewhere.

There are just so many threads and I have a miserable head cold, so I am going to try and stay with one or to for today.

 

[gmm4j]

Amen. I appreciate you brother and I pray you are well soon.

 

[Foghorn]

Amen. I appreciate you brother and I pray you are well soon.

Thanks

 

[gmm4j]

Foghorn is in red,

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified and made righteous by faith.

If that was the case, it could argue it.

It is the case, if as you state, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith. Righteousness is not applied until faith, but you have the newly created heart coming first, through which the gift of faith comes and righteousness is applied. So according to this order, the new heart must still be impure and wicked until faith applies righteousness.

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

 

[Foghorn]

Foghorn is in red,

So, if you think that this newly created heart by the Spirit of God changing the very nature of a sinful person affecting at once the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and morally is not pure. Okay. What can I say? The new heart is impure, sinful, and desperately wicked J Right?

Actually, this argues the point that you are regenerated only after you have been justified and made righteous by faith.

If that was the case, it could argue it.

It is the case, if as you state, through regeneration man receives the gift of faith. Righteousness is not applied until faith, but you have the newly created heart coming first, through which the gift of faith comes and righteousness is applied. So according to this order, the new heart must still be impure and wicked until faith applies righteousness.

I'm sorry to say but you seem to be making salvation a work of man.

With God there is only one plan, plan A; there is no plan B. When one is regenerated, he will respond with his faith which was given him as a gift.

This is something man cannot do, he is spiritually dead, totally depraved. So, the whole process is based on Christ's merits, not ours.
We are regenerated because of what Christ has done for us with a propituary sacrifice, becoming sin and a curse, He was crushed because sin is a serious thing and it was required and that was for our iniquities, which He bore. But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

We are not regenerated because we finally decide, of our free will, to believe in Christ. We are regenerated because of what Christ has done for us, and by His merits alone. The elect are vessels of mercy, not because of our free will faith, but because of Christ. All the blessing we receive, including faith, we receive only in Christ.

Yes, regeneration took place while we were dead: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, Eph 2

Because of what Christ has done for us (the elect) we are vessels of mercy and therefore made alive (regenerated) by God.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2.

Brother, it is all Christ. God is the cause of our salvation, He cannot fail.
Where we fail in obedience, Christ is our obedience.
Where we fail in love, Christ is our love.
Where we fail in good works, Christ is...
Christ is all.

When God looks down upon mankind, and see's His elect whom He chose before the foundation of the world, it is not based on Him previously seeing who would come to him of their own free will, this is man's way, man's religion. It is all based on the Son, Jesus Christ and what He has done, "in our place."

Those who are saved thinking it was of their own free will, will eventually realize it was all God's doing, God was the cause and effect of it. They will either see this sometimes during this life or in the life thereafter, but that will see. All the glory will go to whom is worthy, the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

I wonder what the free willers would say to God if He were to ask them, "why should I let you in heaven?" Personally, I think there minds would be changed instantly, and they will say, because of what Christ has done, all of Him and none of me.

I doubt there will be one in God's presence who will look up and say, "because I decided to choose Christ."

Again, their HEARTS were made pure (new) by faith.

There hearts were made pure because of what Christ has done, and this is applied through regeneration. Not from anything man will do.

Even when we become believers we are sinners saved by grace. When God looks upon us, He see's Christ's perfect righteousness, none of ours, we had none before salvation and we have none now, it is Christ's, and what good works we have now, we have in Christ.

It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

I do not think you will find this teaching anywhere in scripture.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Foghorn (you are in red),

It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

I do not think you will find this teaching anywhere in scripture.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Justified = Righteous (Pure) this is through faith (Rom 5:1)
Life = Regeneration this is by believing (John 20:31)

My statement above: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe.
Scripture teaches: by believing you may have life

I can find my teaching in Scripture. Can’t find Calvinism’s.

 

[Foghorn]

Hey Foghorn (you are in red),

It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

I do not think you will find this teaching anywhere in scripture.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I agree we are justified by faith in Christ. But this does not prove your statement: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

It really does not even help your case here.

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Amen! This states the fact that by believing one will have life.
It does not teach in anyway how one is able to believe. It really makes a statement of truth, that's it.
This is one reason who scripture needs to be kept in context.

Anyone can suggest anything they like with these verses or many others, and if they have a good enough analogy and a convincing enough story, they will find followers.

Calvinism does not do that, Calvinism looks to God's word as the authority.

Justified = Righteous (Pure) this is through faith (Rom 5:1)

Who is denying that?

Life = Regeneration this is by believing (John 20:31)

Would you be kind enough to explain how John 20:31 proves faith before regeneration? but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

My statement above: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe.

I notice you toss your understanding of Calvinism around a bit, that is ok, but I would think by now you would have a better understanding?

Scripture teaches: by believing you may have life

Who denies that?

I can find my teaching in Scripture. Can’t find Calvinism’s.

g, we can find (well hopefully) our teaching agreeing with scripture. To be finding them in scripture isn't exactly a good thing, many can find anything they want in scripture.

Scripture is and should be our "only" authority, or as some say, "final" authority. Were either in harmony with it, or, we should be changing through prayer and study.


let me say also, I understand it is very difficult for you to see Calvinism in scripture, but that is because you do not understand it, if you did understand it you would see it in scripture, ahhh, indeed, you would see it is just another name for the gospel.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Foghorn (you are in red),

Originally Posted by gmm4j
It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

I do not think you will find this teaching anywhere in scripture.

Rom 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I agree we are justified by faith in Christ. But this does not prove your statement: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

It really does not even help your case here.

How can a regenerated heart be impure?

You just agreed that we are justified by faith. So, you have faith (first) and by that faith justification is applied. Part of justification is union with Christ and the application of His imputed righteousness. Because of our new connection to Life by faith, the Spirit causes us to come alive with new righteous hearts (because we are) in Christ. Prior to justification and righteousness by faith we have unrighteous impure guilty hearts. If we were to have righteous pure hearts before righteousness by faith, then we wouldn’t need faith or the righteousness that comes by it because we already would have righteousness (pure hearts) by regeneration. Instead, hearts are made pure and regenerated by first having faith.

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts BY faith.

If regeneration is prior to faith in order to produce faith, but the heart is not purified until faith (for it is by faith that the heart is purified), thenthe regenerated heart is impure until faith is produced.

However, if faith precedes regeneration, as I believe Scripture teaches, then the regenerated heart is rightly to be understood as a purified heart, which is by faith.

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Amen! This states the fact that by believing one will have life.

Amen. We agree.

It does not teach in anyway how one is able to believe. It really makes a statement of truth, that's it.

You are absolutely right. It does not say that by having life you may believe.

This is one reason who scripture needs to be kept in context.

It needs to be understood in context. For posting purposes, sometimes it is difficult to post an entire context, paragraph, chapter, book, style, Old or New Covenant, entirety of Scripture.

Anyone can suggest anything they like with these verses or many others, and if they have a good enough analogy and a convincing enough story, they will find followers.

I think one of the greatest suggestions is that is a distinct and special irresistible inward call for the elect only when it is found nowhere in Scripture. This is one of many that comes to mind.

Calvinism does not do that, Calvinism looks to God's word as the authority.

No, Calvinism doesn’t do that J. You will enjoy one of my next threads on exegesis. It’s amazing how Calvin himself just butchers some texts. It’s coming soon.


Justified = Righteous (Pure) this is through faith (Rom 5:1)

Who is denying that?

Life = Regeneration this is by believing (John 20:31)

Would you be kind enough to explain how John 20:31 proves faith before regeneration? but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

REGENERATION (Grk. paliggenesia, "a being born again"). The spiritual change wrought in man by the Holy Spirit, by which he becomes the possessor of a new life. It is to be distinguished from justification, because justification is a change in our relation to God, whereas regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature. The necessity, in the one case, is in the fact of guilt; in the other, depravity. They coincide in point of time and are alike instantaneous, and thus are both covered by the general term conversion, as that term is popularly and loosely applied (see Conversion). Still they are distinct in that the one is the removal of guilt by divine forgiveness, and the other is the change from the state of depravity, or spiritual death, to that of spiritual life. Regeneration is also to be distinguished from sanctification, inasmuch as the latter is the work of God in developing the new life and bringing it to perfection, whereas the former is the beginning of that life. (from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1988.)

Regeneration is the beginning of Life. John 20:31 says that life comes by believing. “by believing you may have life…” Life by believing, nor belief by life.

My statement above: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe.

I notice you toss your understanding of Calvinism around a bit, that is ok, but I would think by now you would have a better understanding?

How did I misrepresent (toss around) Calvinism? I can’t count how many times I’ve heard Calvinists say that faith is the fruit of regeneration. Regeneration literally means new birth or new life and it is by this new nature that one believes. If this is not Calvinism, there are a whole lot of Calvinists who don’t know Calvinism. So, my statement that “Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe” fitsperfectly into what I have read and heard. If you need me to supply evidence let me know.

Scripture teaches: by believing you may have life

Who denies that?

No one should.

I can find my teaching in Scripture. Can’t find Calvinism’s.

g, we can find (well hopefully) our teaching agreeing with scripture. To be finding them in scripture isn't exactly a good thing, many can find anything they want in scripture.

No, it is a good thing. If you can’t find it in Scripture, you’re up a creek. And yes, you have to be honest with context and carefully harmonize the full counsel of God.


Scripture is and should be our "only" authority, or as some say, "final" authority. Were either in harmony with it, or, we should be changing through prayer and study.


Big Amen!


let me say also, I understand it is very difficult for you to see Calvinism in scripture, but that is because you do not understand it, if you did understand it you would see it in scripture, ahhh, indeed, you would see it is just another name for the gospel.

What do I not understand about Calvinism? Do you not realize I can go into this forum and find one Calvinist who believes there can be a span of time between regeneration and faith, and another (like yourself) that believes it is simultaneous? Some Calvinists believe God loves the non-elect while others believe He hates them and there various understandings of what each definition of love and hate mean. And I could go on… Which Calvinist’s view of Calvinism is the true gospel?

How about we let Scripture be Scripture, and Calvinism, and Arminianism, Pelagianism, etc. be views attempting to harmonize and make sense of Scripture and the Salvation it reveals.

 

[Eddie L]

How can a regenerated heart be impure?

ALL regenerated hearts are impure! Regeneration does not remove all influence of sin. That'll happen later, when we're glorified. God hasn't made any believer into a sinless saint that can now walk without need of forgiveness or help. He didn't just push a "be perfect" button!

 

[gmm4j]

Hi EddieL,

I understand what you are saying experientially. However, spiritually in the eyes of the Father Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us by faith. And, because I believe the New Creation / Life takes place after faith and imputed righteousness, it logically follows that that new heart is considered pure by God because of the union we have with Christ by faith.

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts BY faith.

So, that leaves me to disagree with your statements above, at least in reference to Acts 15:9. This verse does not mean by saying that He "purified their hearts" that He "glorified" them by faith. No, there is a time before glorification and after faith that the heart is made pure. Again, I just have a problem seeing God creating a new "impure" heart before it is purified by faith. No, He gave us a new nature a pure nature. To the pure all things are pure. But this is all by faith; not for faith. He purified their hearts by faith.

May God richly bless you.

 

[Foghorn]

How can a regenerated heart be impure?

Scripture teaches the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it..

You just agreed that we are justified by faith.

How could I not agree with that, scripture teaches such.

So, you have faith (first) and by that faith justification is applied.

Of course one has to have faith first in order to be justified by faith, I agree. But before we can have this faith we need to be regenerated.

Part of justification is union with Christ and the application of His imputed righteousness.

Of course we have to be united with Christ to have faith unto justification.

Do you know what justification is?

The process goes something like this:
Regeneration - the gift of faith - Belief exersize of faith unto justification. .....So..... when we believe, by the gift of faith, God declares us just. We are justified by faith alone, in Christ alone. It is the work of God.

Because of our new connection to Life by faith, the Spirit causes us to come alive with new righteous hearts (because we are) in Christ. Prior to justification and righteousness by faith we have unrighteous impure guilty hearts.
If we were to have righteous pure hearts before righteousness by faith, then we wouldn’t need faith or the righteousness that comes by it because we already would have righteousness (pure hearts) by regeneration. Instead, hearts are made pure and regenerated by first having faith.

Sorry brother, but what you are explaining is synergism, man working with God. God makes sure we hear the gospel, then it is up to us to agree with it, once we do, God justifies, sorry but I disagree. Salvation is monergistic not synergistic.

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts BY faith.

I agree with this scripture you present. But it is not saying because man made a decision to believe. It is teaching there is no distinction between Jews and gentiles, the Gentiles are also justified by faith as well.

If regeneration is prior to faith in order to produce faith, but the heart is not purified until faith (for it is by faith that the heart is purified), thenthe regenerated heart is impure until faith is produced.

However, if faith precedes regeneration, as I believe Scripture teaches, then the regenerated heart is rightly to be understood as a purified heart, which is by faith.

I see and understand how you understand the word. I disagree, and I still am thankful you are my brother in Christ.

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Amen! faith cometh by hearing the word of God. All who are taught by the Father believe.

This is one reason who scripture needs to be kept in context.

It needs to be understood in context. For posting purposes, sometimes it is difficult to post an entire context, paragraph, chapter, book, style, Old or New Covenant, entirety of Scripture.

brother when it is kept in context, the clippings we post will (should) be used according to the context.

For example: Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts BY faith.
..................according to context, this is not teaching the order of salvation, so it should not be used in that way. The statement, "He purified their hearts by faith," I agree with. But it is not teaching man through his free will decided to believe and therefore was purified by it.

However, I believe we both agree it is teaching,..............."It is teaching there is no distinction between Jews and gentiles, the Gentiles are also justified by faith as well."

To bring it to mean something else is just adding to scripture. Respectfully, God's word is not meant to break up in piecemeal and use how we see fit. We should adjust to God's word, not adjust it to our beliefs.

You agree?

Anyone can suggest anything they like with these verses or many others, and if they have a good enough analogy and a convincing enough story, they will find followers.

I think one of the greatest suggestions is that is a distinct and special irresistible inward call for the elect only when it is found nowhere in Scripture. This is one of many that comes to mind.

Just to touch on one briefly.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 2 Tim 1:19.

Calvinism does not do that, Calvinism looks to God's word as the authority.

No, Calvinism doesn’t do that J. You will enjoy one of my next threads on exegesis. It’s amazing how Calvin himself just butchers some texts. It’s coming soon.

Awesome! I cant wait, it should be interesting.

Justified = Righteous (Pure) this is through faith (Rom 5:1)

Who is denying that?

Life = Regeneration this is by believing (John 20:31)

Who is denying that? Your missing the point bro.

Would you be kind enough to explain how John 20:31 proves faith before regeneration? but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

REGENERATION (Grk. paliggenesia, "a being born again"). The spiritual change wrought in man by the Holy Spirit, by which he becomes the possessor of a new life. It is to be distinguished from justification, because justification is a change in our relation to God, whereas regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature. The necessity, in the one case, is in the fact of guilt; in the other, depravity. They coincide in point of time and are alike instantaneous, and thus are both covered by the general term conversion, as that term is popularly and loosely applied (see Conversion). Still they are distinct in that the one is the removal of guilt by divine forgiveness, and the other is the change from the state of depravity, or spiritual death, to that of spiritual life. Regeneration is also to be distinguished from sanctification, inasmuch as the latter is the work of God in developing the new life and bringing it to perfection, whereas the former is the beginning of that life. (from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1988.)

I'm not sure yet as to why you get your reasoning out of that?

Do you feel man has to be involved? Man has to hear the gospel and through his free will make his own decision? I think you may have preconceived understandings. Believe me I know how difficult it is to see it different.

Regeneration is the beginning of Life. John 20:31 says that life comes by believing. “by believing you may have life…” Life by believing, nor belief by life.

Discussed.

My statement above: The heart is made pure and regenerated by having faith first.

Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe.

Yes, calvinism believes God does the work, it is infallible.

I notice you toss your understanding of Calvinism around a bit, that is ok, but I would think by now you would have a better understanding?

How did I misrepresent (toss around) Calvinism? I can’t count how many times I’ve heard Calvinists say that faith is the fruit of regeneration. Regeneration literally means new birth or new life and it is by this new nature that one believes. If this is not Calvinism, there are a whole lot of Calvinists who don’t know Calvinism. So, my statement that “Calvinism believes: By having life (regeneration) you may believe” fitsperfectly into what I have read and heard. If you need me to supply evidence let me know.

Scripture teaches: by believing you may have life

I do not deny that, I deny as scripture teaches man is not able, he is spiritually dead.

What do I not understand about Calvinism? Do you not realize I can go into this forum and find one Calvinist who believes there can be a span of time between regeneration and faith, and another (like yourself) that believes it is simultaneous? Some Calvinists believe God loves the non-elect while others believe He hates them and there various understandings of what each definition of love and hate mean. And I could go on… Which Calvinist’s view of Calvinism is the true gospel?

Perhaps you should ask the Calvinist to explain (using scripture) why he has come to that conclusion? It may help you narrow it down.

It also may help some Calvinist's who need thought in some areas to better understand the word? I dunno.

 

[Foghorn]

Hi EddieL,

I understand what you are saying experientially. However, spiritually in the eyes of the Father Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us by faith. And, because I believe the New Creation / Life takes place after faith and imputed righteousness, it logically follows that that new heart is considered pure by God because of the union we have with Christ by faith.

Your not saying man is then completely sanctified, are you?

 

[gmm4j]

Your not saying man is then completely sanctified, are you?

No, positionally in Christ. Spiritually in the eyes of the Father Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us by faith. And, because I believe the New Creation / Life takes place after faith and imputed righteousness, it logically follows that that new heart is considered pure by God because of the union we have with Christ by faith.

Positionally I'm seated with Christ in the heavenlies and pure in God's sight. Experientially, I'm sitting in a leather chair in my living room and being (from glory to glory) conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Foghorn]

Your not saying man is then completely sanctified, are you?

No, positionally in Christ. Spiritually in the eyes of the Father Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us by faith. And, because I believe the New Creation / Life takes place after faith and imputed righteousness, it logically follows that that new heart is considered pure by God because of the union we have with Christ by faith.

Positionally I'm seated with Christ in the heavenlies and pure in God's sight. Experientially, I'm sitting in a leather chair in my living room and being (from glory to glory) conformed into the image of Christ.

Hmmm, after reading this brother, it does leave me with one question, a leather chair? Why leather, isn't it to hot in S. Carolina?

But, on a serious note, interesting reply. I'm chewing. Not that I don't agree, just I haven't received an explanation like that before.

It is difficult to see things from both sides of the fence sometimes, my tiny brain gets tired after a while, once that happens it needs time to catch back up again,.....Hmmmm, is that old age?

 

[gmm4j]

Buddy,

I know the feeling. The other thing with me is that I'm pushing my sleep boundaries. Spending too many late nights responding. I'm having to check myself multiple times just to see if I am even putting together coherent sentences. Oh, but its fun and it is centered around the Word. You can't beat that!