Faith Precedes Regeneration #6

Men make a free-will choice regardless of which 'righteousness' you want to say exists. And how you got 'self-righteousness' from Romans 5:2, I'll never know.

Also to gmm4j

So my answer from you is yes, right.

RE:
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Arcoe

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Also to gmm4j

So my answer from you is yes, right.

RE:
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Have you not read chapter 3, vs. 1-3, which continues from 2:14? Paul was speaking to the believers (regenerate) of the Corinthian church.

3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly.
 
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Have you not read chapter 3, vs. 1-3, which continues from 2:14? Paul was speaking to the believers (regenerate) of the Corinthian church.

3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly.

Sorry but 1 Cor 2:14 where it mentions the natural man, does not mean born from above carnal man, the natural man born of natural birth is not born from above.
 
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Arcoe

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Sorry but 1 Cor 2:14 where it mentions the natural man, does not mean born from above carnal man, the natural man born of natural birth is not born from above.

Are you not a natural born man? And what is a 'born from above carnal man'? Either a man lives in the flesh or in the Spirit.
 
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gmm4j

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Hey 1509,

Not sure what this means - Also to gmm4j So my answer from you is yes, right.

Are you trying to tell me that you are not going to tell me what "gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand" means?

Or,

What, "He purified their hearts by faith" means?
 
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Rick Otto

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I looked at it & think the grace in which we now stand isn't referring to saving grace, but refers to the graces afforded to them by virtue of their maturity in that faith that saving grace (regeneration unto spiritual life) allowed. You see it articulated further in the following verses:
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
 
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Arcoe

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I looked at it & think the grace in which we now stand isn't referring to saving grace, but refers to the graces afforded to them by virtue of their maturity in that faith that saving grace (regeneration unto spiritual life) allowed. You see it articulated further in the following verses:
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

So grace isn't a gift after all; man must have faith first?
 
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gmm4j

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Hey Y'all,

The grace in which we now stand is the righteousness, justification, and salvation that Christ has provided for us. The point is our position to it. This gracious gift has been provided for in Christ. We receive and stand in the gracious provision by faith. We enter relationship with Christ by faith. We are justified by faith. We are made righteous by faith. We are saved by faith. Here's the context...

Rom 4:13-16
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.

Rom 5:1-2
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Rom 5:15-17
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

It is a gracious gift that must be received by faith. Scripture clearly shows us that faith is not considered a work. Scripture also shows that our faith can be placed in all kinds of things (we can have little faith, weak faith, and even a faith that is shipwrecked, etc.). Biblical saving faith is belief that the Work has been completed by Christ. He did the work. He pleased the Father. You and I couldn't, but He did. Faith doesn't save us. It is faith / belief in the fact that He is our Salvation and provision of Grace that saves!

Thanks for your response Rick. As you can probably tell from what I've highlighted above in the context of Romans 4 and 5, I think the grace in which we now stand is specifically referring to a saving / justifying grace that is entered into by faith. Any and all additional "graces" come by virtue of the reception (by faith) of the original gift of Christ (without Him I can do nothing).

I would also be interested in what you think about the original post and what, "He purified their hearts by faith" means?
 
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Eddie L

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Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. A purified heart is a regenerated heart, and it is regenerated or purified by faith. This does not say that by having a regenerated pure heart, it caused them to have faith. Instead, impure hearts are regenerated and made pure hearts by having faith first.

Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new/regenerated) hearts.

It means that God purifies hearts by faith, not because of faith. Faith is the means God uses to purify hearts.
 
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gmm4j

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Hey EddieL,

I hope you have been well. I'm finally getting a little time to jump back into to some discussions.

Can you help me better understand the distinction you are making between "by" and "because of"?

They became more knowledgeable "by" reading the Bible.
They became more knowledgeable "because of" reading the Bible.

Blessings brother!
 
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Eddie L

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Hey EddieL,

I hope you have been well. I'm finally getting a little time to jump back into to some discussions.

Can you help me better understand the distinction you are making between "by" and "because of"?

They became more knowledgeable "by" reading the Bible.
They became more knowledgeable "because of" reading the Bible.

Blessings brother!

Hey, Mr. G. :)

The artist painted the picture by brush

The artist painted the picture because of brushes

This example more closely matches the grammar of the passage.
 
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gmm4j

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Right. The brush comes first. Faith first, then by or through that faith God gives us a purified heart.

You are also right, faith is a gift and a fruit of the Spirit. Knowledge, wisdom, discernment, teaching, exhorting and governing are also gifts of the Spirit. And, love, joy, patience, and self-discipline are also fruit of the Spirit.

"Purifies" in the text is past tense "purified their hearts" so it is not dealing with the sanctification process or a future state, but a completed event. Do you think that it could be referring to the heart's new condition and position at regeneration?

Ezek 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
 
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gmm4j

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Right. The brush comes first. Faith first, then by or through that faith God gives us a purified heart.

You are also right, faith is a gift and a fruit of the Spirit. Knowledge, wisdom, discernment, teaching, exhorting and governing are also gifts of the Spirit. And, love, joy, patience, and self-discipline are also fruit of the Spirit.

"Purifies" in the text is past tense "purified their hearts" so it is not dealing with the sanctification process or a future state, but a completed event. Do you think that it could be referring to the heart's new condition and position at regeneration?

Ezek 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
 
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Eddie L

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We are clean as soon as the righteousness of Christ is laid to our account. We are declared clean because of Jesus. The new heart is not the only purification we have. It if was we'd be in trouble, or we'd all be perfectly righteous before we died. Jesus' righteousness is ours. We are justified to claim that righteousness as soon as we believe.

That's what we believe, though I'm sure you disagree. Since this debate has raged for centuries, I doubt we'll settle the matter on a Internet forum between two dozen debaters. The best we can hope for is mutual understanding. I disagree with you, Mr. G., and unless God acts to change you or me, I will always disagree with you on this, so arguing will be fruitless.
 
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gmm4j

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Hey EddieL, you said,

"We are clean as soon as the righteousness of Christ is laid to our account. We are declared clean because of Jesus. The new heart is not the only purification we have. It if was we'd be in trouble, or we'd all be perfectly righteous before we died. Jesus' righteousness is ours. We are justified to claim that righteousness as soon as we believe.

That's what we believe, though I'm sure you disagree. "


EddieL,

I agree with you here. :bow: We are clean as soon as the righteousness of Christ is laid to our account - which is as soon as we believe. And, we are not clean (righteous) before belief, in fact we are unrighteous and still under God's wrath prior to belief. The thing that I have the hardest time with is how can someone have Life, which I see only as coming by being connected with Christ, before belief? It is the faith that connects you to Life, not Life connecting you to faith.

If you have Life first and then that produces faith, then you had Life while unrighteous and under His wrath.

Bless you brother. I pray this is a wonderful year for you and your family.
 
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