Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

[probinson]

So that we don't stray too much farther from the topic, I've started a new thread to discuss being sons of God.

(Sorry Jim.... )

 

[hislegacy]

You've made a HUGE leap of logic in saying that I want people to STOP imitating Christ. In fact, Christ was called THE SON of God, and I am calling people to realize that they are not simply servants. They are sons.

Sons have a relationship. Servants do not.

As a son, I took out the garbage. I mowed the lawn. I cleaned my room. I washed the dishes. But I also sat in my daddy's lap.

Galatians 4:7
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
​

Some others would include:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”








​

 

[JeCrois]

Mod Hat ON:


This thread has been moved to the debate subforum since the Spirit Filled/Charismatic main forum is now debate free.

Please see the following announcement for more info:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7253303




Mod Hat OFF​

 

[razzelflabben]

Because sons obey out of love, not out of obligation.

Sons are not servants. Heck, Galatians 4:7 flat out tells us we are no more a servant, but a son.

You seem to think that because I say you should be a son that means that you shouldn't serve, and that's not at all true. What I am saying is that a servant does not have all the rights of a son.

I do not think of my son as a servant. I think of him as my son. That doesn't mean he doesn't have to help out and "serve", if you will, but he is by no means a servant. He is my son.

We are God's sons.

In any event, this is really not really all that relevant to this topic, so maybe I'll start another thread.

All I'm saying to you is being a servant like Christ, is a mindset of humility, beyond what most people comprehend. Being a son of God does not negate this mindset of servatude.

I'm going to venture out a guess here that the heart of both sides of this discussion is that we can be both a servant and a son. On this we agree. My problem was with the post that made it sound, at least to me, that we are not to have the humility of a servant because we are a son. This is a doctrinal issue I will take objection to if that is what you meant.

 

[razzelflabben]

But was He not even called the SON of God?

Search son,sons,and sonship in your concordance..

You will find it is not really scary after all..

He calls God His father, which would make Him either a son or a daughter.

 

[razzelflabben]

Nowhere did I say we are "spoiled little rich kids who get everything [we] want just by throwing a fit". I said we are SONS. The definition of a son is not a "spoiled little rich kid".

That wasn't my point. My point was not nor has it ever been that you think we are spoiled little rich kids. My point was and always has been that in order to live a life that imitates Christ, we need to stop being only children whose daddy is rich and powerful and become like Christ, humble, a servant.

Now I am not sure how from that you all think that I am anti sons and daughters, or whatever it is you think that makes me. The bible clearly tells us that Christ was a servant, and that He was humble, thinking Himself a servant. But we in the church go around boasting and bragging about who our daddy is and what He can and will do for us, if we only ask and believe. What I am telling you is this. 1. My kids don't even have to ask to recieve something from me, nor do they have to believe. They are my children and I give to them according to my resources and the good or bad that I see resulting from any gift, wanting only the best for them, even if the best requires them on occasion to view themselves as suffering. Like when I tell the kids, sorry, you can't go back to the library by yourself until you first learn how to look before crossing the street. Or I tell them, no, you can't have that milk because tonight we are going to use it to make Ice Cream, a real treat. 2. If we are to imitate Christ, it includes but is not limited to the humility of a servant. This humility is missing in most people, including but not limited to the church. When we humble ourselves enough to become servants of God, we see a God that we never saw before, a God whose Love goes beyond our imaginations. We find a Love that transcends all that we thought we knew. Consider Paul, who called himself both a servant and a slave of Christ. He understood this humility.

Now one more not about sonship. We are the children of the King. In fact, the bible tells us that Jesus came to 'preach the gospel of the Kingdom.' Now if we understand this relationship, we also understand that the sons of the king were also his servants. They had an attitude of humility before the king, his wish was there command. They didn't even dare enter his presence without permission. The son was every bit the servant as well. Being a servant isn't about scrubbing toilets and kissing feet, it's about setting apart the one in authority and treating him accordingly.

A real test of our ability to understand whose we are isn't even in the sonship, but in our honor to call Christ, friend. A servant who is called a friend is a place of honor greater than most have the guts to even look at. We are taken from a place of secrets, and put into a position of confidence. Christ confides in us, He shares with us, teaches us, treats us like a friend. Our inheritance is that of Child, no problem. I don't even know what I said that would make you think that was a problem for me. But we are not to stop there, we are also to demonstrate to the world the humility of a servant.

I better stop there before I say some painfully honest things that would not be taken properly and would get me in big trouble.

We all, on occasion, act like spoiled little rich kids, we have the biggest, richest, most loving, most honored, more awesome daddy in the world. I would lie to you if I said that I never, sometimes, allow that makes me feel a bit boastful. But it isn't until I put on the garment of Humility, and become a servant that I am worthy to be called a son of the Most High.

 

[JimB]

Nowhere did I say we are "spoiled little rich kids who get everything [we] want just by throwing a fit". I said we are SONS. The definition of a son is not a "spoiled little rich kid".

Not all of God’s “sons” are brats, but some are. They are usually the ones who think that because they are “sons” they are entitled to have whatever they want from their Dad.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

 

[nephilimiyr]

I would say you looked at the "totality" of scripture as interpreted by your faith group and made your decision.

I did the same and interpreted scripture much the same as you did, until I left the denomination I was a member of. This allowed me the rare privilege of being more objective in the way I interpret God’s dealing with men and, so, I reject a lot of what I had been taught (or mis-taught).

God wills all to be saved. That’s clear and unambiguous in scripture—for example the whosever passages and 2 Peter 3.9, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. There is no such definitive statement about healing be God’s will for all. The only way we can say it is by threading often misinterpreted scriptures, 1+1=3 fashion and come up with the belief.

I also do not think you can equate temporary physical healing with eternal salvation, as when you insist on putting healing in the Atonement. IMO, that cheapens salvation and the atonement of Christ for sin. Sickness is simply a part of the human condition and God has always provided healing for humans in the OT as well as the NT (Naaman and Hezekiah, for example). Christ did not have to atone for something God was already providing. Christ died to atone for our sin. Our sickness was already being provided for; redemption for sin wasn’t.

But God is not a horror stricken by sickness as we are and often uses it to teach us. Of course, some deny that (and would make Paul’s thron in the flesh something other than what Paul called it, an “infirmity”) and we could argue that into the ground (again).

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

I don't have a "faith group" though

But thanks for the reply back

 

[LeadWorship]

I don't have a "faith group" though

But thanks for the reply back

No worries. That just means we can each put you in whatever one we feel you should be in, based on how well we know you and your beliefs.

Gotta love it.

 

[nephilimiyr]

How much closer would God come to His desire, if we stopped going around acting like God and started acting like His servants?

In my opinion it has nothing to do with acting but allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you. As many people are led by the Spirit they are the sons of God. I'm sorry I don't have my Bible with me today.

If I get the jist of your post correctly, if we born again christians started acting out in faith and become the servants He wants us to become then I believe that will make a difference. God has preordained works for us to do beforehand (Eph. 2) and He will lead us into those works if and when we allow it. I believe we have the power to allow this to happen. It's just a matter of letting go of the old self and letting the Spirit lead you. Simple concept but not always easy to do.

 

[nephilimiyr]

No worries. That just means we can each put you in whatever one we feel you should be in, based on how well we know you and your beliefs.

Gotta love it.

I've been in this forum for almost 6 years and you don't know me yet?

I'll help you out, I'm more WOF than anything else. Now you can commence to boxing me in...

 

[LeadWorship]

I've been in this forum for almost 6 years and you don't know me yet?

I'll help you out, I'm more WOF than anything else. Now you can commence to boxing me in...

 

[razzelflabben]

In my opinion it has nothing to do with acting but allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you. As many people are led by the Spirit they are the sons of God. I'm sorry I don't have my Bible with me today.

If I get the jist of your post correctly, if we born again christians started acting out in faith and become the servants He wants us to become then I believe that will make a difference. God has preordained works for us to do beforehand (Eph. 2) and He will lead us into those works if and when we allow it. I believe we have the power to allow this to happen. It's just a matter of letting go of the old self and letting the Spirit lead you. Simple concept but not always easy to do.

So my words weren't so hard to understand as some here would have made them out to be.

Thanks

 

[nephilimiyr]

What is taught in the Bible, is that we are chosen for salvation and nowhere in the Scripture does it say that God chooses people to be damned. The Bible teaches election and predestination however, man's doctrines interepreted them differently. In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

However, God can choose whatever He desires for us of us as we SERVE Him. The primary work of Christ in redemption is to justify and sanctify believers. God will use ordinary good people as well as ordinary very sinful people to accomplish great things. Through out the history (in the past 2, 000 years), God uses people of limitless backgrounds who can minister “together” (unity) for Christ. God works all things together for His purposes. God allowed Stephen to be stoned ( Acts 7:59-60 ) and James to be beheaded. God has given us the grace to sanctify us. The sources of "thorns" can be weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties (which also includes sickness). James says count it all joy when you fall into various trials cause trials have a perfecting work. Peter says after you've suffered a while the Lord will make you perfect. God uses suffering to reveal our spiritual condition. In the midst of the sufferings, what kind of Christian do you see yourself?

I'm sorry but I am not a Calvinist and I really didn't intend to get into any calvinistic debates.

Here is what I believe Jim. I believe Jesus didn't die for just a select few but He died for all. Those who will accept Him as Lord will recieve salvation. Those who reject Him will not recieve salvation. When it comes right down to it, if He elects, wills, desires only a certain group to recieve salvation, by default, He then wills the rest to condemnation.

Whatever, the point is (John 3:16-17) Jesus came and died because of His love for all of mankind. He doesn't wish for anyone to be condemned but unless you accept His gift of salvation you will be condemned. God loved the whole world so much that He gave His only Son, that's saying alot about God's feelings towards all people, not just a select few. To me that is saying that God doesn't wish/desire/will/ that anyone should perrish, yet we all know that that is what happens to many. So regardless of what God desires and or wills for mankind, we know He isn't going to recieve what He desires

 

[nephilimiyr]

So my words weren't so hard to understand as some here would have made them out to be.

I guess not. And I should say, those are some mighty good words

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm sorry but I am not a Calvinist and I really didn't intend to get into any calvinistic debates.

Here is what I believe Jim. I believe Jesus didn't die for just a select few but He died for all. Those who will accept Him as Lord will recieve salvation. Those who reject Him will not recieve salvation. When it comes right down to it, if He elects, wills, desires only a certain group to recieve salvation, by default, He then wills the rest to condemnation.

Whatever, the point is (John 3:16-17) Jesus came and died because of His love for all of mankind. He doesn't wish for anyone to be condemned but unless you accept His gift of salvation you will be condemned. God loved the whole world so much that He gave His only Son, that's saying alot about God's feelings towards all people, not just a select few. To me that is saying that God doesn't wish/desire/will/ that anyone should perrish, yet we all know that that is what happens to many. So regardless of what God desires and or wills for mankind, we know He isn't going to recieve what He desires

Let me say this, I began a study on predestination, I haven't finished it yet, so I can't say too much, but so far it appears that the word used, in conjunction with the passage, means more like, I have arranged, or I have chosen you all to not die. In other words, God is not willing that any should perish. Now it also seems clear that there are individuals who have been hand picked for a specific task, John the Baptist comes to mind. But as to salvation, preliminary study points to an all inclusive idea. I'm anxious to finish the study and see if it all plays out the way the initial study appears to be going.

Just a thought for what it's worth.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Personally, I wish people would stop acting like servants and realize they are sons.

We are BOTH sons and servants.

Philippians 2:5-8
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!

For example, back in the days at the time of the foot washing, it was more of a cultural thing because sandals did little to keep dirt off the feet. At the entrance to every Jewish home was a large pot of water to wash dirty feet. Normally, foot washing was the duty of the lowliest slave.

Jesus had said to the twelve, "Whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave" (Matthew 20:26‑27). Jesus was demonstrating love as He "Removed His outer garment, girded his loins with a towel, went about and began to wash their feet." Jesus is advocating loving service, and Biblical love is self-sacrificing service which is part of the "community". Its a reminder that the life of the church is made up of spiritual attitudes and spiritual motivations, spiritual graces that come from deep within the community. Its a reminder of this verse in Ephesians 4:4, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Feet washing is an primary example of humility however, it is more than that. When Peter refused to allow Jesus to wash His feet, Jesus gave a curious answer: "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me...A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet, his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you" (John 13:8, 10). Judas wasn't clean. Jesus is the one who does the real cleansing on the inside. He does that constantly, as we appropriate His forgiveness.

With that Scripture in mind, we can read more verses:
First Peter 5:5 tells us to be clothed with humility.
Ephesians 4:1-2 says we are to walk in humility.

Colossians 3:12-13 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

My concern with faith teachings that we are act like sons and daughters of the kingdom while in reality, we are to behave like servants on this earth. If we desire honor and glory from God, we must display humility first. That is contrary to our earthly philosophy (including some faith teachings), which exalts pride. Jesus emphasized humility in Matthew 18:3-4 when He said that anyone who would come into His Kingdom must humble himself as a little child. They needed to learn to deny themselves. That's a mark of a true follower of Jesus Christ James wrote it clear that God's grace is amply sufficient to enable us to live a godly life and to keep ourselves "from being polluted by the world" (Jas 1:27).

I am reminded that Jesus said in Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Christ's humility should be IN US.

We are both servants and sons/daughters.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm sorry but I am not a Calvinist and I really didn't intend to get into any calvinistic debates.

Here is what I believe Jim. I believe Jesus didn't die for just a select few but He died for all. Those who will accept Him as Lord will recieve salvation. Those who reject Him will not recieve salvation. When it comes right down to it, if He elects, wills, desires only a certain group to recieve salvation, by default, He then wills the rest to condemnation.

Whatever, the point is (John 3:16-17) Jesus came and died because of His love for all of mankind. He doesn't wish for anyone to be condemned but unless you accept His gift of salvation you will be condemned. God loved the whole world so much that He gave His only Son, that's saying alot about God's feelings towards all people, not just a select few. To me that is saying that God doesn't wish/desire/will/ that anyone should perrish, yet we all know that that is what happens to many. So regardless of what God desires and or wills for mankind, we know He isn't going to recieve what He desires

What I have worded were not calvinism.

1. Calvinism do not teach this: What is taught in the Bible, is that we are chosen for salvation and nowhere in the Scripture does it say that God chooses people to be damned.

2. The Bible clearly teaches this: In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I have understood that God is a sovereign God and I have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In Romans 9:19 says "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" The Holy Spirit convicts a person to repent his/her pride by "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all."