Does Romans 14 Refute Sabbath and Kosher-eating?

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Sabbath:

Rom 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Kosher

Rom 14:14
¶
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:15
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Rom 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Rom 14:19
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Rom 14:20
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence

Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Any Comments...



BLB - Rom 14: Paul's Epistle - Romans 14 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

any takers?

 

[maco]

Sabbath:

Rom 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Kosher

Rom 14:14
¶
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:15
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Rom 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Rom 14:19
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Rom 14:20
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence

Rom 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Any Comments...



BLB - Rom 14: Paul's Epistle - Romans 14 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

Doesn't Paul say in Romans 14 that we can esteem any day we want?[/FONT]

Lets think about that for a minute. What if I choose to esteem Tuesday for sacred assembly and you choose to esteem Thursday but the Pastor chooses to esteem Wednesday for sacred assembly. Where is the unity in the will of God? Where is the ability to enjoy the gifts that God has given to each of us to edify His body, the church? The discussion in Romans 14 was not about the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, it was about arguing over doubtful things. Doubtful things are things that are not clearly commanded by God.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to dispute over doubtful things.

The seventh day Sabbath is not a doubtful thing. The dispute in Romans 14 was over eating only vegetables verse eating meat and which days should we fast (to fast means to abstain from eating). Both of these behaviors are rooted in the opinions of men, not God. God never gave a command to stop eating on certain days nor did He command us not to eat meat. The dispute in Romans was not about the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, it was about days that man esteemed as special fasting days. Listen carefully.

Romans 14:5-6 One man esteems one day above another; another man esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

One man would esteem one day for fasting above another day and another man would consider everyday alike. These kinds of disputes, regarding fasting, were going on in the early church.

Matthew 9:14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?"

God gives no command as to which day to fast or not to fast. Because there is no command given by God it's left open for debate and personal choice. Paul says he who chooses to fast on any particular day should be fully convinced in his own mind as to which day he chooses.

 

[from scratch]

any takers?

Not when I'm sleeping.

 

[from scratch]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

Doesn't Paul say in Romans 14 that we can esteem any day we want?[/FONT]

Lets think about that for a minute. What if I choose to esteem Tuesday for sacred assembly and you choose to esteem Thursday but the Pastor chooses to esteem Wednesday for sacred assembly. Where is the unity in the will of God? Where is the ability to enjoy the gifts that God has given to each of us to edify His body, the church? The discussion in Romans 14 was not about the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, it was about arguing over doubtful things. Doubtful things are things that are not clearly commanded by God.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to dispute over doubtful things.

The seventh day Sabbath is not a doubtful thing. The dispute in Romans 14 was over eating only vegetables verse eating meat and which days should we fast (to fast means to abstain from eating). Both of these behaviors are rooted in the opinions of men, not God. God never gave a command to stop eating on certain days nor did He command us not to eat meat. The dispute in Romans was not about the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, it was about days that man esteemed as special fasting days. Listen carefully.

Romans 14:5-6 One man esteems one day above another; another man esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

One man would esteem one day for fasting above another day and another man would consider everyday alike. These kinds of disputes, regarding fasting, were going on in the early church.

Matthew 9:14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?"

God gives no command as to which day to fast or not to fast. Because there is no command given by God it's left open for debate and personal choice. Paul says he who chooses to fast on any particular day should be fully convinced in his own mind as to which day he chooses.

I suggest you have a reading problem. Your argument is fallacious at best.

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Hmmm...

 

[maco]

Hmmm...

Jesus never changed the day to Sunday nor did the early church meet for sacred assembly on Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

Doesn't Paul say in Romans 14 that we can esteem any day we want?[/FONT]

Paul is specifically speaking of the Lev 23 annual Holy days approved by actual Scripture - not pagan holidays. All of the annual Holy Days of Lev 23 were optional - but as Paul demonstrates HE himself chose to continue to observe them.

Paul says of them in Rom 14 "One man observes one day ABOVE the others while another observes every day" in that list.

Paul is not affirming the observation of pagan holy days in Rom 14 - only Bible-approved holy days.


In Gal 4 Paul is flatly condemning the observance of pagan holy days.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath:

Rom 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Not one single mention of the Sabbath. This speaks about the annual Holy days of Lev 23. Not of pagan holy days. And not of the weekly Sabbath.

One observes one of those annual days above the others - while another observes them all.

Kosher

No mention at all of "Kosher" in Romans 14.

That was easy.

14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.


There is no OT command to "eat vegetables only" this is not about OT vs NT - this is about 1Cor 8 and 1Cor 10 issues of meat vs vegetables in the specific context of meat offered to idols.


No question at all about Kosher vs non-Kosher in Rom 14.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[maco]

Paul is specifically speaking of the Lev 23 annual Holy days approved by actual Scripture - not pagan holidays. All of the annual Holy Days of Lev 23 were optional - but as Paul demonstrates HE himself chose to continue to observe them.

Paul says of them in Rom 14 "One man observes one day ABOVE the others while another observes every day" in that list.

Paul is not affirming the observation of pagan holy days in Rom 14 - only Bible-approved holy days.


In Gal 4 Paul is flatly condemning the observance of pagan holy days.

in Christ,

Bob

[/size][/font]

I asked the question that most people ask and gave the answer. I don't believe he was referring to pagan days, I think he was just talking about the days man sets aside for fasting due to the context.

 

[BobRyan]

I asked the question that most people ask and gave the answer. I don't believe he was referring to pagan days, I think he was just talking about the days man sets aside for fasting due to the context

There is no fasting in Romans 14 it is simply an issue about eating vegetables vs meat and of course there is no OT command to only eat vegetables.

The reason it is the "weak faith" that eats only vegetables is explained in 1Cor 8 and 1Cor 10. The gentiles who converted from paganism where afraid to eat meat offerred to idols and so would rather be vegetarian than take a chance on it. Paul said to those in Corinth that Jews who were not accustomed to serving pagan idols did not care a whit whether meat was offered to idols or not - because they viewed idols as nothing but wood and stone.

Paul says "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble".

The issue in Rom 14 is the same one - it is about meat offered to idols and the fact that those who feared it -- were eating vegetables only to avoid all cases of it.

Paul calls them "weak in the faith".

But does not condemn them.

The list of holy days in Romans 14 obviously does not include those pagan days of Gal 4 that Paul flatly condemns.

The only way to get that separation clearly seen is to note that the Bible annual holy days of Lev 23 are the only ones approved of as a day of rest or "observance".

Now in the OT only 3 of the 7 were mandatory - so even in OT times "one man observed one day above the others while another observes them all".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[maco]

There is no fasting in Romans 14 it is simply an issue about eating vegetables vs meat and of course there is no OT command to only eat vegetables.

The reason it is the "weak faith" that eats only vegetables is explained in 1Cor 8 and 1Cor 10. The gentiles who converted from paganism where afraid to eat meat offerred to idols and so would rather be vegetarian than take a chance on it. Paul said to those in Corinth that Jews who were not accustomed to serving pagan idols did not care a whit whether meat was offered to idols or not - because they viewed idols as nothing but wood and stone.

Paul says "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble".

The issue in Rom 14 is the same one - it is about meat offered to idols and the fact that those who feared it -- were eating vegetables only to avoid all cases of it.

Paul calls them "weak in the faith".

But does not condemn them.

The list of holy days in Romans 14 obviously does not include those pagan days of Gal 4 that Paul flatly condemns.

The only way to get that separation clearly seen is to note that the Bible annual holy days of Lev 23 are the only ones approved of as a day of rest or "observance".

Now in the OT only 3 of the 7 were mandatory - so even in OT times "one man observed one day above the others while another observes them all".

in Christ,

Bob
[/size]

That's a good point. To me Paul doesn't really tell us what days he is referring to but the fact that those who are doing these things are weak in the faith and the disputes are over doubtful things. The seventh day is never considered a doubtful thing.

 

[LarryP2]

First Century Christianity NEVER kept the Sabbath. NEVER. Not once do the Apostles tell the Christians they must keep the Sabbath, or any of the other 613 Commandments of Judaism. Sabbath Keeping has never been a part of genuine Christianity. Only quasi-Christian cults emphasize it.

Under Jewish law, circumcision is required before ANY of the Mosaic Laws can be kept. The Council of Jerusalem in AD 50 decided once and for all that the Gentile Christians would not be required to follow the Mosaic Law. Their duties were described in the Book of Acts and are parallel to the Noahide Law.

Seventh Day Adventism has a yearly stampede of 300,000 fleeing their cruel system of cult bondage. EVERY single significant doctrine of SDA has been soundly debunked by their own theologians! Not one of them has held up under scrutiny of their own Bible scholars! It is a cultish house of cards.

Sabbatarians THINK they are keeping the Sabbath and brag loudly about their superiority over other Christians because of it, but in truth they do not keep the Sabbath. What they "keep" is a convenient, Americanized, sanitized, dumbed down, processed cheese-version of the Sabbath that bears absolutely NO resemblance to the Sabbath as kept by Jesus or anyone in the Old Testament. They have no idea of how to keep the Sabbath.

Don't flatter yourself for imagining you have accomplished something you haven't. The only truly honest Sabbatarisan Sabbath Keepers are the ones who recently began keeping the monthly, yearly and New Moons Sabbaths, all the Jewish feast days and some of them have built the necessary backyard temples to commence animal sacrifices. The honest sabbath keepers have searched out and found the Rabbis necessary to follow the Levitical food laws. If you are going to follow Jesus's example of Sabbath keeping, then you also have to follow all the other Mosaic Laws outlined above. He did.

In the aftermath of SDA's Sabbath Scholar Dr. Samuelle Bachiochi's demolition of the Adventist culture that had developed around the Sabbath over 150 years, honest Adventists have followed his lead and are undertaking the necessary steps to follow ALL of the Jewish laws that are required. Keeping their sanitized Velveeta-version of the 7th Day Sabbath just does not cut it anymore.

Furthermore, they are beginning to see the necessity of rejecting St. Paul as a "False Prophet" and someone who they claim "illegitimately" introduced Greek and Roman thought into Christianity. Notice how advocates of the Sabbatarian cult NEVER cite St. Paul for support for their system of cult bondage. It is obvious they must discredit St. Paul if they are going to keep all of the Jewish Laws, which the honest among them now do teach.

But none of this has anything to do with Christianity. Sabbatarians have started up new religions that emphasize Sabbath worship, whereas Christianity worships the Resurrected Son of God.

Christianity has NEVER required Sabbath keeping.

 

[BobRyan]

First Century Christianity NEVER kept the Sabbath. NEVER. Not once do the Apostles tell the Christians they must keep the Sabbath, or any of the other 613 Commandments .

There are NO "weekday1 after weekday 1" worship services in the entire NT -- not one!

Not ONCE do NT Authors ever command the NT saints to keep week-day-1 holy.

yet there are MANY Sabbath after Sabbath worship services attended by NT Christian saints. Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 -- and the Apostolic church of Acts 15 actually "relied on this fact" to resolve their church dispute (see Acts 15).

What is more - even the following Sunday sources themselves argue for the continued binding authority of the Sabbath Commandment for all Christians to this very day. (So then just stating the obvious here).

 

[from scratch]

There are NO "weekday1 after weekday 1" worship services in the entire NT -- not one!

Not ONCE do NT Authors ever command the NT saints to keep week-day-1 holy.

yet there are MANY Sabbath after Sabbath worship services attended by NT Christian saints. Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 -- and the Apostolic church of Acts 15 actually "relied on this fact" to resolve their church dispute (see Acts 15).

What is more - even the following Sunday sources themselves argue for the continued binding authority of the Sabbath Commandment for all Christians to this very day. (So then just stating the obvious here).

I guess that depends on how one reads the Bible. Personally I believe Christians worshipped on Sunday prior to anything being said about such in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I am sure there are people who believe a great many things not actually found in the actual Bible. I never question that.

 

[from scratch]

That's a good point. To me Paul doesn't really tell us what days he is referring to but the fact that those who are doing these things are weak in the faith and the disputes are over doubtful things. The seventh day is never considered a doubtful thing.

Neither is eating meat. The disputable issue is sacrificed to idols and not meat.

 

[from scratch]

I am sure there are people who believe a great many things not actually found in the actual Bible. I never question that.

Yes sir and you're probably tring to slyly say worship on Sunday isn't found in the Bible. I's say you have reading and language problems.

 

[LarryP2]

The point I was trying to make is that NO modern Sabbatarians are actually keeping the Sabbath. They THINK they are. They CLAIM they are.

But they are not. They are not even CLOSE to keeping it. And at the same time, their cultish Ebionite Heresy drives them to imagine themselves superior to other Christians who worship the Resurrected Christ instead of the dead Jewish Sabbath.

Modern Sabbatarians are similar to an adolescent that fantasizes they are a brilliant General because they have watched a war movie. The "Sabbath" that Sabbatarians THINK they are keeping is a hilarious, Americanized Processed Cheese Product version of the Sabbath. It bears NO resemblance to the Real Thing. American protestant "Sabbath Keepers" resemble someone that thinks Pizza Hut serves Italian food.

Christians who worship on Sunday have abandoned the delusion that ANYBODY who is not a Jew is keeping the Sabbath.

 

[maco]

First Century Christianity NEVER kept the Sabbath.

Here are the very first followers of Jesus after His death.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Here is a little later.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Here is forty years after the resurrection of Jesus.

Matthew 24:20 Jesus said, "pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath".

In 364AD a law had to enacted because the early Christians were still keeping the Sabbath.

Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday (Sabbath), but shall work on that Day: but the Lord's Day, they shall especially honour; and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ. Council of Laodicea (circa 364 AD)

Later church fathers of today's denominations still believed the Sabbath was true for believers.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

D. L. Moody, Founder of Moody Bible Institute Weighed and Wanting pp. 47, 48.
​

"The sacred name of the Seventh day is Sabbath. This fact is too clear to require argument [Exodus 20:10 quoted] On this point the plain teaching of the Word has been admitted in all ages . . . Not once did the disciples apply the Sabbath law to the first day of the week,--that folly was left for a later age, nor did they pretend that the first day supplanted the seventh."

--Joseph Judson Taylor, Southern Baptist "The Sabbatic Question," pp. 14, 15, 16-17, 41
​

"There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will however be readily said, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties, privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament--absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week."

--Dr. E.T. Hiscox, author of the "Baptist Manual."
​

"The Scriptures nowhere call the first day of the week the Sabbath . . . There is no Scriptural authority for so doing, nor of course, any Scriptural obligation"

--"The Watchman."
Baptist
​

"The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without any authority in the New Testament."

--Dr. Lyman Abbot, American Congregationalist In the "Christian Union," June 26, 1890
​

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
​