Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[AbbaLove]

There is no doubt that all of the saints in the Old Testament were sinners. Even the greatest such as Abraham and David, were guilty of vile sin. Yet, God showed grace to them and saved them through faith.

"saved them through Faith" ... a Gift only possible via the Love of GOD (ahavah) ,,, Hebrew Word of the Week - Ahavah (YaHaVaH)

You need to take into account His "justificaton" (Matthew 5:48 - "be perfect as He is perfect"

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,​

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

1 Corinthians 6:9-11​

 

[John Mullally]

I am not in the least bit sure that Noah had the slightest idea of a savior

And yet Noah was himself a type of savior. Mankind would have been wiped out if Noah did not obey God in building the Ark.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And yet Noah was himself a type of savior. Mankind would have been wiped out if Noah did not obey God in building the Ark.

In what way was Noah different than the ark? The animals were saved in the ark, not in Noah. Noah did not go out and coax the animals into his ark. Noah happened to be the guy that God chose to construct the ark. Why God didn't do it Himself or determine some other method is anybody's guess.

What would have happened if Noah had exercised his free will and ignored God's command?

Who gets the praise out of this episode?

 

[John Mullally]

In what way was Noah different than the ark? The animals were saved in the ark, not in Noah. Noah did not go out and coax the animals into his ark. Noah happened to be the guy that God chose to construct the ark. Why God didn't do it Himself or determine some other method is anybody's guess.

What would have happened if Noah had exercised his free will and ignored God's command?

Who gets the praise out of this episode?

Noah exercised his free will, obeyed God, and is recognized for his faith in Hebrews 11. I am not interested in "What if?". Obviously, God showed his mighty power in the events surrounding the flood.

I don't know where you are going. I offer this: God gave the earth to man (Psalms 115:16). As far as God's methods are concerned: Post creation, man is involved in some way in either everything or nearly everything that God does on earth. This is seen as Abraham had to willing offer his son Isaac before God offered His son Jesus. In the Exodus, God exercised his mighty power through Moses (who like Noah was following God's instructions). God answers prayers. Men preach the Gospel. It was vital that Jesus had to operate as a man (Philippians 2:7) when he walked this earth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Noah exercised his free will, obeyed God, and is recognized for his faith in Hebrews 11. I am not interested in "What if?". Obviously, God showed his mighty power in the events surrounding the flood.

I don't know where you are going. I offer this: God gave the earth to man (Psalms 115:16). As far as God's methods are concerned: Post creation, man is involved in some way in either everything or nearly everything that God does on earth. This is seen as Abraham had to willing offer his son Isaac before God offered His son Jesus. In the Exodus, God exercised his mighty power through Moses (who like Noah was following God's instructions). God answers prayers. Men preach the Gospel. It was vital that Jesus had to operate as a man (Philippians 2:7) when he walked this earth.

Actually, I am busily running down a useless tangent. I believe it has been shown decisively on this thread that the answer to the OP is a very firm no. At this point, there is not much left to discuss, is there?

 

[zoidar]

God showed grace to Noah. Was it because Noah was such a nice guy?

The story won't tell how or why Noah was a righteous person. I think we can tell though, Noah was chosen by God to be saved since he was righteous where other people of his time were evil.

 

[John Mullally]

Actually, I am busily running down a useless tangent. I believe it has been shown decisively on this thread that the answer to the OP is a very firm no. At this point, there is not much left to discuss, is there?

No there is not a consensus on the subject "Does man naturally have ability to Seek God?". For example I give you this from a portion of my Post 269.

While it’s true that fallen man does not seek after God, God seeks after us, positioning Himself “not far from each one of us,” all for the purpose that mankind “would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him.” (Acts 17:26-28 NKJV) The apostle Paul taught this in a sermon to evangelize lost, unbelievers. So, clearly, he thought that lost people could seek and find God, based solely on the principle of God positioning Himself near, so that He may be sought and found, and Paul didn’t mention anything to them about first needing a secret regeneration to change their will, nor did he say that God only desired the salvation of a secret society of “the elect” among them. Remember the Holy Spirit pursues man and He convicts the world of Sin, Righteousness, and Judgement (John 16:8).

 

[AbbaLove]

No there is not a consensus on the subject "Does man naturally have ability to Seek God?". For example I give you this from a portion of my Post 269.

Let's consider Cain and Abel? Was Abel's rigtheous action even possible without the influence of God? Yet it was his choice to make.

Malachi 1:1-3 ...​

1The oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. 2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”​

Christians believe that mankind has freedom in his choices, whether faithful righteousness or unfaithful unrighteousness. Even though Rahab was a harlot she was justified and faithful (James 2:25, Hebrews 11:31).

"Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen"​

 

[Doug Brents]

God showed grace to Noah. Was it because Noah was such a nice guy?

Scripture says clearly that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he alone of all mankind was found to be righteous. Gen 7:1 - "Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time."

Was he a nice guy? Scripture doesn't say, and totally irrelevant.
Was he a perfect guy? Scripture says no, every person has sinned and fallen short of God's perfection.
Was he a good guy? Yes, he was righteous as declared by God, the only one worthy of judging righteousness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Scripture says clearly that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he alone of all mankind was found to be righteous. Gen 7:1 - "Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time."

Was he a nice guy? Scripture doesn't say, and totally irrelevant.
Was he a perfect guy? Scripture says no, every person has sinned and fallen short of God's perfection.
Was he a good guy? Yes, he was righteous as declared by God, the only one worthy of judging righteousness.

So, it was a relative thing. Noah was more righteous than everyone else. Therefore, God decided to save him and his household in the flood.

 

[Doug Brents]

So, it was a relative thing. Noah was more righteous than everyone else. Therefore, God decided to save him and his household in the flood.

Not at all.

Gen 6:8-9 - "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not at all.

Gen 6:8-9 - "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."

Was Noah perfectly righteous?

 

[Doug Brents]

Was Noah perfectly righteous?

Rom 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
All have sinned (including Noah), but Scripture says he was righteous and walked with God. Even of the other saints, few have had that said of them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Rom 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
All have sinned (including Noah), but Scripture says he was righteous and walked with God. Even of the other saints, few have had that said of them.

Abraham was the friend of God and David was a man after God's own heart. Elijah was taken to heaven without seeing death and appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration along with Moses.

For all of these individuals righteousness was not relative to perfection in their lifetimes on earth.

 

[Doug Brents]

Abraham was the friend of God and David was a man after God's own heart. Elijah was taken to heaven without seeing death and appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration along with Moses.

For all of these individuals righteousness was not relative to perfection in their lifetimes on earth.

Not sure what your are getting at. The only relativity in righteousness is between an individual and God!! And in that comparison the individual will ALWAYS fail, unless God declares him righteous through His grace. Abraham, David, Elijah, Enoch, Moses, etc. were all sinful. They would all have been condemned to eternity apart God's if God had not declared them righteous through the blood of Jesus.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not sure what your are getting at. The only relativity in righteousness is between an individual and God!! And in that comparison the individual will ALWAYS fail, unless God declares him righteous through His grace. Abraham, David, Elijah, Enoch, Moses, etc. were all sinful. They would all have been condemned to eternity apart God's if God had not declared them righteous through the blood of Jesus.

Well, we know little to nothing about Enoch. We know only slightly more about the faith that any of the Old Testament saints may have had in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Mostly, it seems to me, that a certain amount of reconstruction of the Old Testament narrative needs to be made in order to overcome this difficulty (i.e. imputed righteousness through personal faith in Jesus Christ).

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, we know little to nothing about Enoch. We know only slightly more about the faith that any of the Old Testament saints may have had in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Mostly, it seems to me, that a certain amount of reconstruction of the Old Testament narrative needs to be made in order to overcome this difficulty (i.e. imputed righteousness through personal faith in Jesus Christ).

I didn't say that the people of the OT had "personal faith in Jesus Christ". I said that their righteousness was "declared through the blood of Jesus". Without Jesus, none of the OT saints would have been saved, because it is only through the blood of Jesus that sin can be forgiven. His blood cleanses those who believe in Him after He came, and it also cleanses those who God declared righteous from before He came. I am not sure where you are trying to take this conversation, but it is way off the OP of this thread. What are you getting at?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I didn't say that the people of the OT had "personal faith in Jesus Christ". I said that their righteousness was "declared through the blood of Jesus". Without Jesus, none of the OT saints would have been saved, because it is only through the blood of Jesus that sin can be forgiven. His blood cleanses those who believe in Him after He came, and it also cleanses those who God declared righteous from before He came. I am not sure where you are trying to take this conversation, but it is way off the OP of this thread. What are you getting at?

I agree that we have wandered far and wide from the OP. I think there has been a consensus established that man does not naturally have an ability to seek God (i.e. the God revealed in the Bible).

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree that we have wandered far and wide from the OP. I think there has been a consensus established that man does not naturally have an ability to seek God (i.e. the God revealed in the Bible).

A consensus is meaningless. It matters what Scripture says, regardless of what the majority of man says. Every single human other than Noah and his wife, sons, and their wives were the "consensus", yet they believed wrong.

Scripture says that God is not far from any of us, and that He made the world so that we would (so obviously we could) search for Him, and find Him (Acts 17:27).

 

[bbbbbbb]

A consensus is meaningless. It matters what Scripture says, regardless of what the majority of man says. Every single human other than Noah and his wife, sons, and their wives were the "consensus", yet they believed wrong.

Scripture says that God is not far from any of us, and that He made the world so that we would (so obviously we could) search for Him, and find Him (Acts 17:27).

Rather than regugitate many of the excellent scriptures already posted on this thread I recommend that you take the time to read them for yourself.