Crucifixion

timothyu

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Should we be using the crucifixion as a meaning for joy or as a reminder that our ideals of mankind are what got Jesus crucified? Do we see Him as an innocent, as one thief said, or do we see ourselves responsible for His death? Do our ideals crucify Him still?

If He were to teach today about our failure to free the oppressed from our greedy and economic ways and about the worship of money even in the church, all while challenging the authority of church and state, would He not meet the same fate as those around us who promote the same?

Realistically, were we washed by the blood OR convicted by it for having our selfish ideals execute God? Were we washed by the blood that bled and came as a result of our own doing, based on the self-interest of man, or were we washed by the forgiveness we were given three days later? Will we change our ideals to be worthy of that grace, or will we keep demanding Jesus save us as the other thief did?

The blood was a result of our pride in our ideals, and it resulted in the execution of God. We, with our human self-serving ideals, brought it on.

None of us should be proud, for we even originally abused our gift of creation to make it about ourselves, ignoring the Creator to follow our own will. We can, however, be, I won't say proud, but respectful, if we hand control back over to God and repent of the ideals of man that Jesus taught against... and which we killed Him for out of resentment for suggesting our self-centred ways were not Godly enough.
 

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I needed Christ to be crucified and it was my sins (not mankind's sins) which put him their. Blame me and not mankind.
I want Christ's blood out of his body and available to me, so I can feel and know it is washing over my heart with the communion in the form of the wine that I drink and I can physically feel it flow over my heart.
 
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BobRyan

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Should we be using the crucifixion as a meaning for joy or as a reminder that our ideals of mankind are what got Jesus crucified? Do we see Him as an innocent, as one thief said, or do we see ourselves responsible for His death? Do our ideals crucify Him still?

If He were to teach today about our failure to free the oppressed from our greedy and economic ways and about the worship of money even in the church, all while challenging the authority of church and state, would He not meet the same fate as those around us who promote the same?

Realistically, were we washed by the blood OR convicted by it for having our selfish ideals execute God? Were we washed by the blood that bled and came as a result of our own doing, based on the self-interest of man, or were we washed by the forgiveness we were given three days later? Will we change our ideals to be worthy of that grace, or will we keep demanding Jesus save us as the other thief did?
Peter draws his sword to defend Christ in a battle of 100's in the mob -- vs -- 1 Carpenter from Nazareth that was not even resisting.

Peter's attack did not accomplish much and Jesus rebukes him for his effort to defend Jesus.

Jesus said "do you not know that I could command more than 12 legends of angels to defend me ?" -- so then MORE than one legend of awesomely powerful supernatural Angel warriors - for each helpless, unnerved, whimpering disciple still with Jesus.

Matt 26:
50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?”​
Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.​
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”​
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”​

Each time the issue of "where are the humans to defend Jesus" is brought up - Jesus replies emphatically "you still don't get it". His response is of the form "this is not an issue of Jesus not having enough armies"! Jesus shuts down every effort to cast a story of that form.

John 18:
33 Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”

35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”


==============================================


John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE..."

Jesus came to pay our debt -- owed because the wages of sin is death - the second death of Rev 20

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
He is the "Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the WORLD"

VERY different from His next return visit -- When He returns He will slay all those who "do not know God and who do not obey the Gospel"


2 Thess 1: 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

1 Thess 4:13-18 all the saints raptured to heaven in that 2 Thess 1:5-8 event above.

Jer 4:23-28 all humanity slain at that same event such that there are "no humans" left alive according to Jer 4:23-26

Jer 25:33 says "33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground."

The slain of the Lord are not only not buried - left as corpses, as refuse on the ground... they are not even lamented!! That is because there are no humans left on Earth to do it - during that 1000 year millennium .
 
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BobRyan

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If this were gang warfare - Jesus is not only the brains of the outfit - He is also the MUSCLE, the HEAT -- He asks us to be the "messengers" who are willing to lay down our life for the cause of Christ. And His cause is "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come". Matt 24.

Jesus says "He is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3 .

Yet Jesus also tells us in advance that only the FEW in Matt 7 will actually respond to it. The MANY will reject the offer of salvation.
 
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timothyu

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Yet Jesus also tells us in advance that only the FEW in Matt 7 will actually respond to it. The MANY will reject the offer of salvation.
Absolutely because the majority of mankind is more interested in hanging onto our self serving ways than giving them up. That is clearly shown all through the Bible from start to finish.
 
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cfposter

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If this were gang warfare - Jesus is not only the brains of the outfit - He is also the MUSCLE, the HEAT -- He asks us to be the "messengers" who are willing to lay down our life for the cause of Christ. And His cause is "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and then shall the end come". Matt 24.

Jesus says "He is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3 .

Yet Jesus also tells us in advance that only the FEW in Matt 7 will actually respond to it. The MANY will reject the offer of salvation.
Actually Mathew 7 is not really saying what you're implying there. It says the following:

KJV
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

now look at the YLT version:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

You can see that if you use the KJV rendering, you say that it seems to imply that few would EVER find the way. But when you read the YLT version is it in the Present Tense saying that Few were finding it (when Jesus spoke it) but does NOT imply that few would EVER find it.

So which is right? Well the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus and that verb is actually in the Present Tense. It appears to be an error in translation of the KJV or at the least laid forth in a manner not conveying the actual tense.
 
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cfposter

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Peter draws his sword to defend Christ in a battle of 100's in the mob -- vs -- 1 Carpenter from Nazareth that was not even resisting.

Peter's attack did not accomplish much and Jesus rebukes him for his effort to defend Jesus.

Jesus said "do you not know that I could command more than 12 legends of angels to defend me ?" -- so then MORE than one legend of awesomely powerful supernatural Angel warriors - for each helpless, unnerved, whimpering disciple still with Jesus.

Matt 26:
50 But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?”​
Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him. 51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.​
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”​
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”​

Each time the issue of "where are the humans to defend Jesus" is brought up - Jesus replies emphatically "you still don't get it". His response is of the form "this is not an issue of Jesus not having enough armies"! Jesus shuts down every effort to cast a story of that form.

John 18:
33 Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”

35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”


==============================================


John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE..."

Jesus came to pay our debt -- owed because the wages of sin is death - the second death of Rev 20

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
He is the "Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the WORLD"

VERY different from His next return visit -- When He returns He will slay all those who "do not know God and who do not obey the Gospel"


2 Thess 1: 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

1 Thess 4:13-18 all the saints raptured to heaven in that 2 Thess 1:5-8 event above.

Jer 4:23-28 all humanity slain at that same event such that there are "no humans" left alive according to Jer 4:23-26

Jer 25:33 says "33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground."

The slain of the Lord are not only not buried - left as corpses, as refuse on the ground... they are not even lamented!! That is because there are no humans left on Earth to do it - during that 1000 year millennium .
But Jesus told them to take the Two Swords. Not many don't understand that.

Luk 22:38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Jesus said that Two Swords are enough. But what does that mean? Many have used this verse to counter pacifism and
promote a Biblical endorsement of war and defense, but is that really the message that Jesus is sending in this verse?

Let's look more broadly at what Jesus said:

Luke 22:35 He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse, and wallet, and shoes, did you lack anything?" They
said, "Nothing."
Luke 22:36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has
none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with the lawless.' For that
which concerns me has an end."
Luke 22:38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Let's look at what a well known Bible Commentator had to say about Luke 22:38. In his commentary (Adam Clarke,
LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832)), Adam Clarke confesses: "I must here confess that the matter about the swords appear to
me very obscure. I am afraid I do not understand it, and I know of none who does."

So Adam Clarke confesses that he doesn't understand it. If only many other commentators would be so humble. One of the ways to avoid stumbling at God's Word is to understand that His creation is a type of that which is Spiritual.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the
things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

Notice in Romans 1:20 that the invisible things of God are clearly seen by those things that are made. So here we can
see that the creation is showing us of God. So it should be no wonder that Jesus would instruct others based on the
earthly things. The problem is when we read His words in scripture and take their physical message as the intent of His
message. When we take His words void of His intended Spiritual meaning then Jesus has become a stumbling block to
us. Therefore, we must always consider the Spiritual significance that is intended by the words Jesus spoke. Jesus told
Nicodemus the following:

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."
John 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's
womb, and be born?"
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the
Kingdom of God!
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is
going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered him, "How can these things be?"
John 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and don't understand these things?
John 3:11 Most certainly I tell you, we speak that which we know, and testify of that which we have seen, and you don't
receive our witness.
John 3:12 If I told you earthly things and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Now those are a lot of verse to swallow here but I wanted to submit them to you so that you might understand what I'm
teaching about the earthly to Spiritual relationship. Those things made by God (in our earthly world) are a
"type" of something Heavenly (of God). Consider for example, that Jesus is called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist
(John 1:29), but Jesus is not really a physical Lamb. Therefore, we should not think that the swords mentioned by
Jesus in Luke 22:36 is actually referring to an earthly physical sword.

But if it isn't referring to a physical sword then to what
is it referring? We need to look to God's Word to find out. So if the earthly is a type of something spiritual then we need to
search for that relationship. We find that relationship in Ephesians 6:17:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the spoken word of God;

So there we have an earthly to Spiritual relationship defining the Sword as the Spoken Word of God. So if we plug this
into our verse from Luke 22:38 which reads:

Luke 22:38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Then what we have is the Lord saying that two of the Spoken Word of God (sword) is enough. So now we know what is
enough but why is two of the Spoken Word of God enough? Here is a place in scripture where I find that the words of
TWO are enough:

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he who is to die be put to death; at the mouth
of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Now we know that Jesus came to save men from their sins for all have sinned (Rom 5:12). We know that the wages of
sin is death (Rom 6:23). The Two Swords are the VALID Testimony that will condemn us. The Witness was needed to
condemn those that had broken the covenant of God and to convict one of their sins. Jesus sent His disciples by two:

Luke 10:1 Now after these things, the Lord also appointed seventy others, and sent them two by two ahead of him into
every city and place, where he was about to come.

Jesus indeed brought a sword into the world and did not come to bring peace:

Matthew 10:34 "Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send peace, but a sword.
The testimony of Two is at work in this world by the Spirit of God.
 
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BobRyan

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But Jesus told them to take the Two Swords. Not many don't understand that.

Luk 22:38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Jesus said that Two Swords are enough. But what does that mean? Many have used this verse to counter pacifism and
promote a Biblical endorsement of war and defense, but is that really the message that Jesus is sending in this verse?

Let's look more broadly at what Jesus said:

Luke 22:35 He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse, and wallet, and shoes, did you lack anything?" They
said, "Nothing."
Luke 22:36 Then he said to them, "But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has
none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must still be fulfilled in me: 'He was counted with the lawless.' For that
which concerns me has an end."
Luke 22:38 They said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." He said to them, "That is enough."

Let's look at what a well known Bible Commentator had to say about Luke 22:38. In his commentary (Adam Clarke,
LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832)), Adam Clarke confesses: "I must here confess that the matter about the swords appear to
me very obscure. I am afraid I do not understand it, and I know of none who does."
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.”

36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was counted with wrongdoers’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Jesus is contrasting two different dispensation/contexts.

In the first one - "take nothing with you - all will be supplied". "while it is day"

John 9:4 We must carry out the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.

Luke 22:51 But Jesus responded and said, “Stop! No more of this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.

Matt 26:52 Then Jesus *said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

luke 22:52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a man inciting a revolt? 53 While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.”

In the second one - "better take what you can - nothing will be supplied" - this is the hour of darkness.
 
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cfposter

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35 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.”

36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was counted with wrongdoers’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Jesus is contrasting two different dispensation/contexts.

In the first one - "take nothing with you - all will be supplied". "while it is day"

John 9:4 We must carry out the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.

Luke 22:51 But Jesus responded and said, “Stop! No more of this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.

Matt 26:52 Then Jesus *said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

luke 22:52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as you would against a man inciting a revolt? 53 While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.”

In the second one - "better take what you can - nothing will be supplied" - this is the hour of darkness.
You state that the second one is a "take what you can" message. What are they supposed to be taking?
 
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