Confession-olotry?

[ChiRho]

Confession-olatry is similar to bibliolatry. Some people make the Bible their god, saying that it is what they believe in it. Christians don't believe in the Bible. They believe in God. There was a wonderful editorial piece on NPR the other day that was narrated by a Muslim woman. She wanted other Muslims to admit that the Qu'ran in places is not helpful. She wanted her Muslim brothers and sisters to admit that their holy book has problems. Christians would do well to admit the same thing. In so doing we would become more compassionate and more open to the God who is much bigger than a book.

How would you know?

 

[AngelusSax]

How would you know?

I know that, for me, the day I first said "maybe there's more here than what this text says in my English translation" is the day I actually started to care about people other than myself, and started holding out hands instead of pointing fingers.

 

[Willy]

How would you know?

Sorry,I don't understand the question. I assume it is an attack.

 

[ChiRho]

Sorry,I don't understand the question. I assume it is an attack.

Well, you make take it however you want, but your post was nothing but an outside attack on Christianity.

 

[ctobola]

Chi,

Although you may believe that you clearly understand where such lines are drawn, not all of us do.

I know that the idea of "objective truth" is important to you; but in the future, please refrain from coming into the ELCA/ELCIC group and declaring that one of our members isn't a Christian or Lutheran.

Thanks! -Cloy

Well, you make take it however you want, but your post was nothing but an outside attack on Christianity.

 

[ChiRho]

Chi,

Although you may believe that you clearly understand where such lines are drawn, not all of us do.

I know that the idea of "objective truth" is important to you; but in the future, please refrain from coming into the ELCA/ELCIC group and declaring that one of our members isn't a Christian or Lutheran.

Thanks! -Cloy

So declaring Scripture is equally problematic as the satanic Qu'ran is completely acceptable to you? Even that line is blurry, huh?

By the way, are you the new official spokesman for this subforum?

 

[Protoevangel]

So declaring Scripture is equally problematic as the satanic Qu'ran is completely acceptable to you? Even that line is blurry, huh?

His comment surprised and disgusted me as well. Now, I guess we both know where he is comming from.

By the way, are you the new official spokesman for this subforum?

Yea, I think Cloy must be the new "undercover" mod. He has sure been acting like it.

 

[SPALATIN]

Cloy,

I don't think this is at all out of bounds. I think these are legitimate questions that you should ask yourself and find a definitive answer. To put Christianity on any par with Islam is Syncretic and according to God's word wrong.

 

[Willy]

Well, you make take it however you want, but your post was nothing but an outside attack on Christianity.

Outside attack, huh? You are so gracious. The thousands of people who relate to my ministry throughout the year would find your attack quite interesting. They wouldn't understand it. But that's okay. Justifying myself frankly is not my job. My justification belongs to God, as does yours. The sooner we all understood this the more compassionate we will become.

 

[ottaia]

Why are the LCMS people in the ELCA forum?

Please leave.

 

[Willy]

Now Ottaia, don't be so unhospitable! I don't care if they are here. (they've got to do their heresy hunt somewhere.) I just wish they would learn how to have a respectful conversation.

 

[ottaia]

I guess the concept of an uninvited guest coming onto the forum and flinging epithets like "Satanic" offends me. Calling the scripture of other faiths "Satanic" offends me. If the faith considers itself satanic, then that is another story. But You were not talking about satanic scripture. It is attitudes like those that were exhibitite that, IMO, lead to the hightened tensions we currenlty feel in the world.

 

[Willy]

You are right on the money. How did you get so smart?

 

[Lutherrunner]

This was a response in the "Members Only" thread in LCMS.....I thought it was very fair of Tetzel to post this:

I would not want people coming to my forum either if they were declaring me not to be Lutheran. The kind of stuff I hear about the ELCA in this forum reminds me of the stories I've heard about what people said about Roman Catholics a few decades ago. It's no wonder they don't want to hear from us. Also the amount of contempt displayed for each other in that forum is disgusting. We wouldn't be allowed to go into OBOB and act like that, should we have a right to do that to the ELCA sub-forum?

These sub-forums are supposed to be safe places for us.....yes, we tend to be more liberal in theology and they know that going into the game.....this is not the place for them to be critical and point out perceived errors from their point of view......we should not go over there and criticize them for being conservative and legalistic because that is their safe place and we already know what their beliefs are.....if people want to argue and be critical, they can take it to the main Lutheran forum.....I do wonder what visitors and newbies think of our infighting though......

 

[Jenna]

Calling the scripture of other faiths "Satanic" offends me. If the faith considers itself satanic, then that is another story. But You were not talking about satanic scripture.

All of the conservative/liberal synod disagreement aside, I don't honestly understand how these type of statements aren't being refuted by everyone- and pointedly by ELCA folks. *scratches head* I'm really confused here.

Anything that draws people away from Christ is satanic. Any god who is not our ONE God is a false god. Any "holy" book of a false religion seeks to draw the hearts of men away from the God who created them. How can that NOT be satanic?? I would be more concern over offense to God, as opposed to my individual sensibilities.

I know this isn't "my proper forum", and I'm on my way out the door. I wouldn't have stopped in here, except that we were directed to the thread by way of another thread in the other subforum. I would normally just keep quiet and read, but I thought that this was important enough to bother mentioning, even if nothing productive comes out of the saying of it.

Have a good night, all.

 

[Protoevangel]

All of the conservative/liberal synod disagreement aside, I don't honestly understand how these type of statements aren't being refuted by everyone- and pointedly by ELCA folks. *scratches head* I'm really confused here.

Anything that draws people away from Christ is satanic. Any god who is not our ONE God is a false god. Any "holy" book of a false religion seeks to draw the hearts of men away from the God who created them. How can that NOT be satanic?? I would be more concern over offense to God, as opposed to my individual sensibilities.

I know this isn't "my proper forum", and I'm on my way out the door. I wouldn't have stopped in here, except that we were directed to the thread by way of another thread in the other subforum. I would normally just keep quiet and read, but I thought that this was important enough to bother mentioning, even if nothing productive comes out of the saying of it.

Have a good night, all.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jenna again.

I so admire your gentle manner.

 

[ctobola]

Jenna,

I understand your concern -- Islam is opposed to Christianity. At the same time, I know several Muslim people who are great individuals. I would say that they are mislead by the Islamic faith, but I also understand that they are created in the image of God and are worthy of respect. Does declaring their holy book Satanic build bridges that would give us opportunities to share our faith with them?

I think it's also important to look at this whole thread in context. Willy was noting that an Islamic woman recently spoke on the radio about the need for Muslims to evaluate the role of the Koran in their lives: he essentially noted that Christians should do the same.

I think there are are probably occasions within the Lutheran faith when we are guilty of "Bible-olotry" and we need to be very careful about that.

Anyway, thanks for stopping in and sharing your thoughts.

In Christ, -Cloy

All of the conservative/liberal synod disagreement aside, I don't honestly understand how these type of statements aren't being refuted by everyone- and pointedly by ELCA folks. *scratches head* I'm really confused here.

Anything that draws people away from Christ is satanic. Any god who is not our ONE God is a false god. Any "holy" book of a false religion seeks to draw the hearts of men away from the God who created them. How can that NOT be satanic?? I would be more concern over offense to God, as opposed to my individual sensibilities.

I know this isn't "my proper forum", and I'm on my way out the door. I wouldn't have stopped in here, except that we were directed to the thread by way of another thread in the other subforum. I would normally just keep quiet and read, but I thought that this was important enough to bother mentioning, even if nothing productive comes out of the saying of it.

Have a good night, all.

 

[Protoevangel]

Jenna,

I understand your concern -- Islam is opposed to Christianity. At the same time, I know several Muslim people who are great individuals. I would say that they are mislead by the Islamic faith, but I also understand that they are created in the image of God and are worthy of respect. Does declaring their holy book Satanic build bridges that would give us opportunities to share our faith with them?

It is the truth. Simple as that.

It may not be a good method of evangelism, but that is not the primary focus of this discourse is it Cloy? Neither for yourself, Willy, Jenna, I, nor for anyone else participating an any of the discussions here. Please don't confuse evangelism and outreach with a discussion among "family", as it were.

I think it's also important to look at this whole thread in context. Willy was noting that an Islamic woman recently spoke on the radio about the need for Muslims to evaluate the role of the Koran in their lives: he essentially noted that Christians should do the same.

I think there are are probably occasions within the Lutheran faith when we are guilty of "Bible-olotry" and we need to be very careful about that.

Anyway, thanks for stopping in and sharing your thoughts.

In Christ, -Cloy

Willy said:
"Christians don't believe in the Bible. They believe in God."

I reply:
"I and my neighbor and, in short, all men, may err and deceive, but the Word of God cannot err."
- Large Catechism (Holy Baptism, verse 57)

What phrase do you see in common with these verses?
Matthew 4:4, Matthew 4:6, Matthew 4:7, Matthew 4:10, Matthew 11:10, Matthew 21:13, Matthew 26:24, Matthew 26:31, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25.

"It is written." This is our Lord's most common statement in the Gospels. Jesus used the Scriptures as the infallable norm and rule. He said that the Scripture pointed to Him. He also said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Until Heaven and Earth pass away, not one jot or tittle.

Oh, Christians believe in the Bible all right, exactly because they believe in Christ.

In fact I am saddened that you would defend such a statement as Willy's above, Cloy.

Willy basically said (Paraphrased):
Christians would do well to admit the Bible in places is not helpful.
Christians would do well to admit that their holy book has problems.


I reply:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
- 2 Timothy 3:16

"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."
- 2 Peter 3:14-16

Anything that would defame Scripture is Satanic. Blessed be God and His Word, and cursed be everything and everyone who teaches contrary to God and His Word, even if it should be an apostle, or an angel from heaven. Amen!

 

[ottaia]

Do you really find it that easy to just accept eveything as is? Didn't God give us minds to think? You quote every jot and tittle but I am willing to bet you enjoy a good shrimp cocktail (or Brat, or your wife sitting next to you in worship) every now and then. If you do, then you are either unrepentent or you are admitting in your life that parts of the Bible are not as relavant as others.

 

[Jenna]

Do you really find it that easy to just accept eveything as is? Didn't God give us minds to think? You quote every jot and tittle but I am willing to bet you enjoy a good shrimp cocktail (or Brat, or your wife sitting next to you in worship) every now and then. If you do, then you are either unrepentent or you are admitting in your life that parts of the Bible are not as relavant as others.

Wow. I am just floored. There is nothing wrong with backing up a point by providing the scripture that birthed the understanding. One would think this to be expected and joyfully embraced, not demeaned. God did give us minds to use well, and He calls us to be wise and discerning many times. Clear thinking does not mean that we must toss out or ignore parts of scripture, and nothing loses it's relevance- only the application changes. No, we are not condemned by the law, and a person may feel free to eat shrimp if they choose. Likewise, a person also has the freedom to acknowledge God's wisdom in all things, and they may decide that shrimp, pork, etc. will not be eaten by them. These things are heart issues between a person and God. Why this even came up in response to DanHead's post, I don't know. You'll have to draw the connection more plainly for me, I'm sure.