Catholic Perverts?

[Josh]

Homosexuality is a choice. It is ridiculous to say that God makes people homosexual. Homosexuals should still be loved, but their actions definitely should not.

A homosexual who says "I was born with it; I can't help it; I would be straight if I could" is simply somebody who has become addicted, and has eagerly embraced society's new biological excuse.

After all, if they believe this, then it makes their addiction OK, and they do not have to try to overcome it. As with many addictions, I believe that this one can be pretty tough to overcome. However, it can be, has been, and needs to be overcome.

Is your the evidence for bioligical homosexuality the fact that some people say "I can't help it"? Why wouldn't these people simply be those who have gone so far with it that they have tried to convince themselves it cannot be helped?

 

[AlphaPhi]

Spoken, Josh, like someone who knows absolutely nothing about homosexuality or homosexuals and what they go through in their "I am NOT gay" period, which all of them go through before coming to terms with who they are.

Keep up the blindly speaking about things you don't know. It'll get you very far in the ignorant circles of right-wing Protestant fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism, condeming everyone whose not just like us since 1895.

 

[Didymus]

How do you know that Josh knows no homosexuals ? I have several dear friends of both sexes who were gay and i have seen their pain and struggles.
I f homosexuality is not a sin then why is it listed as one in the Bible ?

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by AlphaPhi
Actually, the planet is not overpopulated. With our current food production and capacity this planet could sustain upwards of 10 billion people. As food production, preservaton and storage techniques improve, that number will go up.

However, we do have a problem with distribution. Food and potable water are locked up in the less-populated areas, and our international trade system makes it difficult to get it to where it needs to be cheaply and quickly. That's why we need more aggressive free trade laws.

From the information I read, this world has enough available assets, that, if used properly, could easily sustain life for 50 billion people. Of course, we need to manage our resources better, but that is something that could be done, if the world ever decided to get its act together.

Fact of the matter is, the United Nations is now starting to sound the alarm that the population is getting older at such a rate that soon, deaths will be exceeding births and that subsequent population plunge will mean dire economic problems for a number of nations.. most notably Europe and eventually the United States of America (Spain is already feeling the effects and Italy is not far off).

All thanks to birth control and abortion.

Overpopulation, what a laughable concept.

 

[VOW]

To Didymus:

The homosexual ACT is what is condemned in the Bible. Jesus did not condemn tax collectors, prostitutes or adulterers; I'm sure he also loves homosexuals, too.

If you have gay friends, then you should have an understanding that their sexual orientation is definitely not a choice.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[AlphaPhi]

I am sorry that I even brought up the Vatican representative's brusque and hateful words. I've only given the gay-haters another opportunity to spread their wicked "gospel." I would ask that we all just drop the topic.

 

[Didymus]

I KNOW Jesus loves gays. Only one of my friends came out after I met him. When we first met he was very much the ladies man.
OK let s agree to disagree on this topic andd go on to something else.
I think we all agree that gays need love and not hate.

 

[JeTmAn]

Alright, since I got so many replies I'm going to try to centralize and just respond to one:

Originally posted by VOW


I'm going to agree with nyj on this: you must not be married. A marriage license doesn't give anyone the right to "sexual satisfaction" any more than a driver's license is a guarantee you'll be a great driver (or even know how to drive). Sex in a marriage is more than just "getting some," it's part of the emotional, spiritual BOND between a husband and wife. And often, this bond requires controlling dem urges! Besides, marriage is certainly not a cure for homosexuality. The emotional well-being of the heterosexual partner is often been destroyed, because something is lacking in the relationship, and the spouse has NO IDEA what the problem is.

What I meant is, marriage requires a sexual release. If you are regularly satisfied sexually, you won't be compelled to seek out other partners. Often the things that lead to the breakup of marriages involve a staving off of sexual activity, among other things.

That reply is ludicrous. It's like saying which is more lethal, the gas chamber or the electric chair. Fornication is fornication.

Well, not really. All sin is damning, that is true. But do you consider telling a lie to be as bad as murdering a family of five? Of course not.

-JeTmAn

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by JeTmAn

Well, not really. All sin is damning, that is true. But do you consider telling a lie to be as bad as murdering a family of five? Of course not.

Well, at least you have some notion about the gravity of sin, and it is true that some sins are more grave than others, but fornication and homosexual practice are both sexual abominations. Both are grave and have the potential to be mortal sin, especially since anyone who reads the Bible will know God's aversion to both fornication and homosexual relations.

Once again I'll state that your rationalization (and that is what it is) that fornication is somehow better than a homosexual relationship is dangerous and a potential stumbling block for Christians who struggle with this issue. After knowing that God disproves of sex outside of marriage, if it is done (even with someone of the opposite sex), it can cause a rift between that person and God. Large enough to place their salvation in jeopardy.

 

[Josh]

Spoken, Josh, like someone who knows absolutely nothing about homosexuality or homosexuals and what they go through in their "I am NOT gay" period, which all of them go through before coming to terms with who they are.

Keep up the blindly speaking about things you don't know. It'll get you very far in the ignorant circles of right-wing Protestant fundamentalism.

You are ridiculous and your insult to my intelligence hardly qualifies as making a point. Why should I have to know a homosexual before I say what I have to say about that kind of behavior? You think that me (or you) knowing a homosexual will somehow make the Bible untrue?

 

[Josh]

Fundamentalism, condeming everyone whose not just like us since 1895.

And if by fundamentalist, you mean somebody who goes by Scripture as final authority, then count me in as a fundamentalist anytime.

 

[Didymus]

I think that alpha phi met if you knew a gay person it would give you a different look at the question See my posts above about having gay friends. It hasn t changed my opinion on the subject bbut it has given it a face.

 

[Josh]

I think that alpha phi met if you knew a gay person it would give you a different look at the question

He thinks it would give me a look besides the one found in the Bible...?

 

[Didymus]

I don t mean that. Homosexualaty is a sin but gays are people too. And Christ died for them too right ? What I am trying to say is that if you got to know a gay person you woould still hate their sin but you would maybe care about them as a person. Do you know any gay people ?

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by JeTmAn
What I meant is, marriage requires a sexual release. If you are regularly satisfied sexually, you won't be compelled to seek out other partners. Often the things that lead to the breakup of marriages involve a staving off of sexual activity, among other things.

Marriage REQUIRES a sexual release?

If you are "satisfied sexually" you won't be "compelled" to seek out other partners?

This is such incredible BALONEY!

Marriage requires nothing of the sort. Marriage requires a commitment between an adult man and an adult woman, to live together and have children together and raise them into decent, God-fearing, responsible human beings. There is nothing that says married people MUST have sex!

Being "sexually satisified" by no means prevents adultery or other immoral behavior. Whether or not you obtain any sexual satisfaction in marriage can NEVER justify immorality!

Lack of sexual activity isn't the greatest cause of marital discord and breakup. Money, in-laws, and simple lack of communication destroys more marriages than sex ever could.

You just dig yourself in deeper and deeper whenever you discuss marriage.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Josh]

I do not know any gay people, but that does not change what Scripture says about homosexuality. Scripture clearly states that God is against homosexuality.

When it says they will not inherit the kingdom of God, I think this goes along with the fact that a true biblical Christian (a person who accepts Christ as their Savior from their sins) would not be homosexual. This faith comes with a desire to do what is pleasing to God.

This said, a homosexual always has the option of changing their ways and accepting Christ as Savior.

 

[Didymus]

I am not disagreeing with you about the wrongness of homosexuality. I am saying hate the sin love the sinner--I hate that expression but it does convey what i mean.
my friend Dave is gay. He is polite and fun to be with nad i enjoy his company. I wish he was not gay but until he realizes it is a sin and he can change do I shun him no. i am a sinner too and I wooould not people to shun me because I lie or gossip or have lustful thoughts.

 

[brt28006]

Hmm... nobody has commented on my previous statement (see quote below) about where many of you claim the bible calls homosexuality a sin:

Originally posted by brt28006



L.20:13 - If a man also lieth with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

This verse should be taken in context with the verses around it, which all describe various adulterous or incestuous relationships. What L.20:13 is saying is that those rules apply to both men and women. Like this:
L.20:10 (normal) - And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Now, L.20:10 in accordance with my theory on L.20:13 - And the man that committeth adultery with a woman's husband, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's husband, the adulterers shall surely be put to death.

Homosexuality was frowned upon among the Jews, that much is known, but it is not known that L.20:13 meant what it is usually interpreted as.

-----------
Now, as for people's comments on how homosexuality is a choice. If you are not gay yourself then you have exactly NO authority to say whether or not it's voluntary. Only gay people themselves can make such a judgement, and there will always be those who side with "well, it is a choice", or "of course I didn't choose to be gay."


------------
Now to comment on the necessity of sexual release in marriage. I guess it depends on the people. If people view sex as an act of love, then I think that it would be one of the necessary parts of keeping a healthy bond. If they view sexual desire as something to feel shame over, as apparently some of you do, then no, I would not think you'd find it to be an important part of marriage.

Neither way is wrong I guess, so long as neither side forces its views on others.

But then the question should be asked, "but isn't physical attraction something that should be strived for?"
I think it should be, so long as it doesn't turn to obsession.
Many Christian fundamentalist girls seem to wear long dresses and formless shirts, saying how girls who dress to attract the attention of guys are, in their hearts, harlots.
But... I find the "natural look" to be highly desirable, so then those Christian girls become the harlots, by their own logic.
Whatever.

 

[dnich163]

Hi folks, Good day to you from Bonnie Scotland.

I think that "perversion" is in all of us, lurking undetected until some experience or situation causes it to appear.
If we take for example what happened to normal sane ordinary men and women during times of war and oppression, when attrocities were carried out in the name of civilised society, then it is easy to see that this " sin" is within us all.
I think it is the sin of blindness that is at the root of the issue, when Jesus was here on earth, many people turned away from him just as today.
If only we could really see, then our way would be clear.

What do you think ?
The blindness of the religious people of the time led to the crucifiction, it wasn't the sinners, prostitutes or tax collectors that crucified Our Lord but the religious element.

Regards
David

 

[Shane Roach]

Originally posted by VOW


Marriage REQUIRES a sexual release?

If you are "satisfied sexually" you won't be "compelled" to seek out other partners?

This is such incredible BALONEY!

Marriage requires nothing of the sort. Marriage requires a commitment between an adult man and an adult woman, to live together and have children together and raise them into decent, God-fearing, responsible human beings. There is nothing that says married people MUST have sex!




Peace be with you,
~VOW

In 1 Corrinthians 7 there is a whole disertation on this subject. It appears that the Bible and you disagree on this point.

I'm not Catholic, so I would like to ask something related to the begining of this thread, which was less about homosexuality specifically and more on how it relates to Priestly celibacy. The Bible actually speaks againt celibacy unless a person is called to it, and the job usually filled by a Catholic Priest has traditionally been filled by married people as well as celibate. Christ was celibate, for example, but most the apostles were not.

Where does the requirement for celibacy come from, and how does a man who wants to serve the Catholic church as a leader and preacher and perhaps as an administrator find a place in the church to fill that calling if he happens to not also be able to contain as far as celibacy is concerned?

I went back and looked for a thread on Catholicism and homosexuality, and there's not one. Perhaps there should be one seperate from this. Anyhow, since this is where the subject is running, thought I'd say, to those who keep insisiting there is nothing a gay person can do about their urges, I personally have found that there is something I can do about mine, not of the homosexual type, but of every other type that I have. That is quite simply to refuse to give in to temptation, and likewise to try to concentrate on better things. It takes effort, and that may be what many of you mean when you say tha the urge itself is not something someone can help, but still. One can train ones self and eventually not feel this or that urge as much, and even reshape one's mental thought habits. So I find myself sceptical of this claim that there is just nothing that can be done. I mean who knows, maybe some people have homosexuality as a "thorn in the flesh" a la Paul, but I feel it is important to also present for homosexuals who don't want to feel this urge, that there is hope.

Nevertheless, for a homosexual who struggles constantly I can only say I have great sympathy. I have my own struggles that I repeatedly fail to control, though I do feel I make progress. But the point is, it is devestating sometimes to fight and fight something and it never changes. But that's just taking up the cross, I guess.

Thanks in advance for replies, and I hope I haven't already ticked everyone off.