Can we choose God's elects?

[BibleBeliever1611]

I dont see how that verse is incompatible with Calvinism. Read the book of John. Particularly chapter 17. Read Christs prayer to God. That God would lose none of those he (God) has given me but that all come to repentance. Forget exactly where in his prayer he says that.

God does will all to come to repentance. All of his children that is. Or as Christ put it several times in his ministry "those the father has given to me."

Also, Peter never said that any of them would be lost. Again to reject Preserverence of the Saints would be to reject scripture itself.

If you want an answer from one of Peters letters though, 1 Peter 2:6-8 describes this quite well. I suggest you read it and read what Peter says closely. Then maybe you would not be so confused about Peters words in his second letter.

Well there are a lot more problems with Calvinism. It doesn't make much sense. For example, why did God create the tree of knowledge of good and evil to the garden of Eden if God is the one who controls everything and we don't have free will? And why did God tell Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree if he knew all along that they would eat from it? Weird stuff.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well, the Bible is against Calvinism though. So Calvinism is not Christianity. For example, how about this verse.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9

So God's will was that no-one should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the fact that there are people who don't come to repentance and will indeed perish is a proof that people can make choices that are against God's will. There are many other verses as well that would debunk Calvinism but I think this is a very clear one.

Good day,

The promise in verse 9 refers to the coming in verse 4.. context..context...CONTEXT!

"Where is the promise of his coming? "

Lets play follow the pronouns with RC

Grammar 101 when reading the written word lets follow the rules or you come up with nonsense....

 

[renniks]

Sigh.

I'm saying that there is compatibilist free will, but not libertarian free will.

Compatibilist free will is a smoke screen. It's not free at all, it's just doing what God chose for us to do.

 

[BBAS 64]

Compatibilist free will is a smoke screen. It's not free at all, it's just doing what God chose for us to do.

Good Day,

and doing so freely by an act of the will.

Perfect.

In Him,

Bill

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Compatibilist free will is a smoke screen. It's not free at all, it's just doing what God chose for us to do.

It's not a smoke screen. It's just one way of understanding free will.

1. Libertarian free will: Man chooses; God does not. It's the belief that only human decides the human's destiny, and God either can't or won't interfere. It would be similar to the relationship between the parent and child, where influence is possible, but in the end the child must make its own decisions.
2. Compatibilist free will: Man chooses and God chooses. On one level, the choice is human, made freely, but on a higher level the outcome is divinely destined. It would be comparable to the relationship between a fiction writer and a character, like Shakespeare and Hamlet. Within the context of the story, Hamlet freely decides, but outside of the context of the story the choice is Shakespeare's. The human will is free to do as it chooses, but it always chooses according to internal and external factors, all of which are known and foreordained by God. In the end, even when a person does as they choose, even that choice fits within God's plan and suits his purpose.
3. Robotic will: Man does not choose; God chooses. This is the belief that non-Calvinists claim that Calvinists hold. It would suggest that people do not choose freely, but that they do exactly as they were programmed. It would suggest that God sits in the driver's seat, even of the sinner, and the sinner is a passenger watching him drive them off a cliff. The Compatibilist position is different in that the sinner is already inclined to drive off that cliff, and the predestination lies in God not preventing it (though he could), knowing fully the outcome because he didn't.

 

[renniks]

will: Man does not choose; God chooses. This is the belief that non-Calvinists claim that Calvinists hold. It would suggest that people do not choose freely, but that they do exactly as they were programmed. It would suggest that God sits in the driver's seat, even of the sinner, and the sinner is a passenger watching him drive them off a cliff. The Compatibilist position is different in that the sinner is already inclined to drive off that cliff, and the predestination lies in God not preventing it (though he could), knowing fully the outcome because he didn't.

Like I said, and you just illustrated, it's a smoke screen. You can try and claim the sinner somehow decides to drive, but that's an illusion in your system. The sinner can't drive at all because everything he does is already chosen for him.

But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labor under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 15, Paragraph 8)



“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

 

[lesliedellow]

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

We act in accordance with our desires, which are in turn determined by our environment, our upbringing, and much else. And who creates all of that? God does. Therefore, all our desires, and all our actions, are ultimately determined by God, even though also have more proximate reasons for our actions

 

[lesliedellow]

So are you saying that there's no free will and we are like robots programmed to do whatever God wants us to do?

We act in accordance with our desires, and our desires are the product of our environment, our upbringing, our moods, and much else besides. And who creates all of those things? God does. Therefore our desires, and therefore our actions, are ultimately determined by God, even though there are also more proximate reasons for our actions.