By two or three witnesses?

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Richard T

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It would seem as God's standard for accusations would be 1 Timothy 5:19 (KJV)
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Would the standard be easier to accuse if the person were not an elder? If so, what standard? It would seem that the Cavanaugh accusations are just a single witness per incident unless one counts Judge as a witness for Cavanaugh. Of course the U.S. Senate is not the church, but certainly applying biblical standards to any secular situation would also be wise. Any thoughts?
 
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Thee Librarian

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It would seem as God's standard for accusations would be 1 Timothy 5:19 (KJV)
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Would the standard be easier to accuse if the person were not an elder? If so, what standard? It would seem that the Cavanaugh accusations are just a single witness per incident unless one counts Judge as a witness for Cavanaugh. Of course the U.S. Senate is not the church, but certainly applying biblical standards to any secular situation would also be wise. Any thoughts?
I think it means to have witnesses present during the accusation.
 
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HTacianas

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It would seem as God's standard for accusations would be 1 Timothy 5:19 (KJV)
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Would the standard be easier to accuse if the person were not an elder? If so, what standard? It would seem that the Cavanaugh accusations are just a single witness per incident unless one counts Judge as a witness for Cavanaugh. Of course the U.S. Senate is not the church, but certainly applying biblical standards to any secular situation would also be wise. Any thoughts?

The old testament standard for a conviction was the testimony of "two or three witnesses". It was the same for everyone.

It's where we get the constitutional requirement for treason.
 
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Norbert L

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It would seem as God's standard for accusations would be 1 Timothy 5:19 (KJV)
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Would the standard be easier to accuse if the person were not an elder? If so, what standard? It would seem that the Cavanaugh accusations are just a single witness per incident unless one counts Judge as a witness for Cavanaugh. Of course the U.S. Senate is not the church, but certainly applying biblical standards to any secular situation would also be wise. Any thoughts?
We know that ancient Israel also had some kind of procedure to examine the witnesses. Proverbs 18:17
 
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Dave-W

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The old testament standard for a conviction was the testimony of "two or three witnesses". It was the same for everyone.
That was for capital cases (death penalty).
 
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joshua 1 9

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Any thoughts?
The guy is a judge, he knows what he is doing and it is going to be very difficult to bring a case against him. He does not admit to anything and he does not have to admit to anything. If people do not believe him he has offered to take a lie detector test, they should take him up on his offer.

Under the law people use to have disputes. So they would go to Moses to settle their disputes. At first he would do that for him but it was wearing him out. So he talked to his father in law. Jethro told Moses to set up judges to hear settle the issues. So only the difficult cases Moses would hear. Also Moses set up the law. Now Law had been around for 1,000 years before Moses was born. But man's law is different from God's law.

Paul is talking to Timothy about a dispute in the church between the elders and the people that are a part of the church. Elders are given a higher level of respect and there are high standards needed to accuse them. In this case Paul teaches about the law of Moses.

Deuteronomy 19:15
A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Ecc4:12 "Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Is anyone making an accusation against anyone? Matthew 18:15-19
Are we in criminal court?

If one is discussing their understanding of Scripture. The two or three witness thing does not apply. That line has been his game to avoid dealing with other peoples point of view or to avoid their arguments.

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John

St. Luke’s preface
1:1-4
“God the Word”
1:1-14
Birth of John Baptist foretold
1:5-25
Annunciation of the birth of Jesus
1:26-38
Mary visits Elizabeth
1:39-56
Birth of John the Baptist
1:57-80
The watching shepherds
2:8-20
The circumcision
2:21
Presentation in the temple
2:22-38
The wise men from the East
2:1-12
Christ in the temple with the doctors
2:40-52
Andrew and another disciple and Simon Peter
1:35-42
Philip and Nathanael
1:43-51
The marriage in Cana of Galilee
2:1-11
Passover and cleansing the temple
2:12-25
Nicodemus comes to Jesus by night
3:1-21
Christ and John baptizing
3:22; 4:2
Christ at the well of Sychar
4:3-42
The synagogue at Nazareth
4:16-30
The nobleman’s son at Capernaum healed
4:46-54
Blind men and demoniac
9:27-34
The feast at Jerusalem
5:1
The pool of Bethesda
5:2-15
Jesus and the irate Jews
5:16-47
Ministry and Parables
The widow’s son at Nain
7:11-17
Woe denounced to the cities of Galilee
11:20-24
Call to the meek and suffering
11:25-30
Anointing the feet of Jesus
7:36-50
Second circuit round Galilee
8:1-3
Parable of the seed growing secretly
4:26-29
Parable of the wheat and tares
13:24-30
The wheat and tares explained
13:36-43
The hid treasure, the pearl, the net
13:44-52
“The bread of life”
6:22-65
Blind man healed
8:22-26
Outside of Galilee
The fish caught for the tribute
17:24-27
Forgiveness of injuries
18:15-17
“Binding and loosing”
18:18-20
Parable of the unmerciful servant
18:21-35
“Salt with fire”
9:49-50
Ministry in Jerusalem
Fire from heaven
9:52-56
Teaching at the feast of tabernacles
7:11-53
Woman taken in adultery
8:1-11
Dispute with the Pharisees
8:12-59
The man born blind
9:1-41
The good shepherd
10:1-21
Feast of the dedication
10:22-30
Departure beyond Jordan
10:40-42
In Galilee
Mission of the seventy
10:1-16
The return of the seventy
10:17-24
The good Samaritan
10:25-37
Mary and Martha
10:38-42
Watchfulness
12:32-59
Galileans that perished
13:1-9
Woman healed on the Sabbath
13:10-17
Towards and At Jerusalem
Journey towards Jerusalem
13:22
“Are there few that be saved?”
13:23-30
Warning against Herod
13:31-33
Dropsy healed on the Sabbath day
14:1-6
Choosing the chief rooms
14:7-14
Parables of the lost sheep, piece of
money, prodigal son
15:1-32
Parables of the steward, rich
man and Lazarus
16:1-31
The ten lepers
17:11-19
How the kingdom cometh
17:20-37
Parable of the unjust judge
18:1-8
Parable of the Pharisee and the publican
18:9-14
Laborers in the vineyard
20:1-16
Zaccheus
19:1-10
Raising of Lazarus
11:1-44
Meeting of the Sanhedrin
11:45-53
Christ Departs to Ephraim
11:54-57
Parable of the two sons
21:28-32
Parable of the ten virgins
25:1-13
The last judgment
25:31-46
Greeks visit Jesus. Voice from heaven
12:20-36
The judgment of unbelief
12:37-50
Contention of the apostles
22:24-30
Last discourse. The departure. The Comforter
14:1-31
The vine and the branches. Abiding in love
15:1-27
Work of the Comforter in the disciples
16:1-33
The prayer of Christ for them
17:1-26
The traitor’s death
27:3-10
Christ before Herod
23:7-12
The mother of Jesus at the cross
19:25-27
The penitent malefactor
23:40-43
The side pierced
19:31-37
Appearance at the sea of Tiberias
21:1-23
Appearance on the mount of Galilee
28:16-20




If you look at a harmony of the Gospels that are many things that only one Gospel records. Did those events not happen?

Harmony of the Gospels - Study Resources - Study Resources
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It is specifically for an elder in the Church. i don't believe you can hold that as instruction for anything else. It does leave out crimes that there were no witnesses though.

This example, comes to mind,

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 ESV
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.


In short, only the woman was the witness. No others.

 
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Daniel Marsh

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The guy is a judge, he knows what he is doing and it is going to be very difficult to bring a case against him. He does not admit to anything and he does not have to admit to anything. If people do not believe him he has offered to take a lie detector test, they should take him up on his offer.

Under the law people use to have disputes. So they would go to Moses to settle their disputes. At first he would do that for him but it was wearing him out. So he talked to his father in law. Jethro told Moses to set up judges to hear settle the issues. So only the difficult cases Moses would hear. Also Moses set up the law. Now Law had been around for 1,000 years before Moses was born. But man's law is different from God's law.

Paul is talking to Timothy about a dispute in the church between the elders and the people that are a part of the church. Elders are given a higher level of respect and there are high standards needed to accuse them. In this case Paul teaches about the law of Moses.

Deuteronomy 19:15
A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Ecc4:12 "Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken."

Matthew 18:15-18
New International Version

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

The standard is the same for everyone who is being accused of sin. The standard is only in that context of church discipline and criminal justice.
 
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Deuteronomy 19:15 New International Version

One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Numbers 35:30 ESV / 18 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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We know that ancient Israel also had some kind of procedure to examine the witnesses. Proverbs 18:17

Daniel 13
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Susanna’s Beauty Attracts Two Elders
13 [a]There was a man living in Babylon whose name was Jo′akim. 2 And he took a wife named Susanna, the daughter of Hilki′ah, a very beautiful woman and one who feared the Lord. 3 Her parents were righteous, and had taught their daughter according to the law of Moses. 4 Jo′akim was very rich, and had a spacious garden adjoining his house; and the Jews used to come to him because he was the most honored of them all.

5 In that year two elders from the people were appointed as judges. Concerning them the Lord had said: “Iniquity came forth from Babylon, from elders who were judges, who were supposed to govern the people.” 6 These men were frequently at Jo′akim’s house, and all who had suits at law came to them.

7 When the people departed at noon, Susanna would go into her husband’s garden to walk. 8 The two elders used to see her every day, going in and walking about, and they began to desire her. 9 And they perverted their minds and turned away their eyes from looking to Heaven or remembering righteous judgments. 10 Both were overwhelmed with passion for her, but they did not tell each other of their distress, 11 for they were ashamed to disclose their lustful desire to possess her. 12 And they watched eagerly, day after day, to see her.

13 They said to each other, “Let us go home, for it is mealtime.” 14 And when they went out, they parted from each other. But turning back, they met again; and when each pressed the other for the reason, they confessed their lust. And then together they arranged for a time when they could find her alone.

The Elders Attempt to Seduce Susanna

15 Once, while they were watching for an opportune day, she went in as before with only two maids, and wished to bathe in the garden, for it was very hot. 16 And no one was there except the two elders, who had hid themselves and were watching her. 17 She said to her maids, “Bring me oil and ointments, and shut the garden doors so that I may bathe.” 18 They did as she said, shut the garden doors, and went out by the side doors to bring what they had been commanded; and they did not see the elders, because they were hidden.

19 When the maids had gone out, the two elders rose and ran to her, and said: 20 “Look, the garden doors are shut, no one sees us, and we are in love with you; so give your consent, and lie with us. 21 If you refuse, we will testify against you that a young man was with you, and this was why you sent your maids away.”

22 Susanna sighed deeply, and said, “I am hemmed in on every side. For if I do this thing, it is death for me; and if I do not, I shall not escape your hands. 23 I choose not to do it and to fall into your hands, rather than to sin in the sight of the Lord.”

24 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and the two elders shouted against her. 25 And one of them ran and opened the garden doors. 26 When the household servants heard the shouting in the garden, they rushed in at the side door to see what had happened to her. 27 And when the elders told their tale, the servants were greatly ashamed, for nothing like this had ever been said about Susanna.

The Elders Testify against Susanna

28 The next day, when the people gathered at the house of her husband Jo′akim, the two elders came, full of their wicked plot to have Susanna put to death. 29 They said before the people, “Send for Susanna, the daughter of Hilki′ah, who is the wife of Jo′akim.” 30 So they sent for her. And she came, with her parents, her children, and all her kindred.

31 Now Susanna was a woman of great refinement, and beautiful in appearance. 32 As she was veiled, the wicked men ordered her to be unveiled, that they might feed upon her beauty. 33 But her family and friends and all who saw her wept.

34 Then the two elders stood up in the midst of the people, and laid their hands upon her head. 35 And she, weeping, looked up toward heaven, for her heart trusted in the Lord. 36 The elders said, “As we were walking in the garden alone, this woman came in with two maids, shut the garden doors, and dismissed the maids. 37 Then a young man, who had been hidden, came to her and lay with her. 38 We were in a corner of the garden, and when we saw this wickedness we ran to them. 39 We saw them embracing, but we could not hold the man, for he was too strong for us, and he opened the doors and dashed out. 40 So we seized this woman and asked her who the young man was, but she would not tell us. These things we testify.”

41 The assembly believed them, because they were elders of the people and judges; and they condemned her to death.

42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said, “O eternal God, who dost discern what is secret, who art aware of all things before they come to be, 43 thou knowest that these men have borne false witness against me. And now I am to die! Yet I have done none of the things that they have wickedly invented against me!”

44 The Lord heard her cry. 45 And as she was being led away to be put to death, God aroused the holy spirit of a young lad named Daniel; 46 and he cried with a loud voice, “I am innocent of the blood of this woman.”

Daniel Rescues Susanna

47 All the people turned to him, and said, “What is this that you have said?” 48 Taking his stand in the midst of them, he said, “Are you such fools, you sons of Israel? Have you condemned a daughter of Israel without examination and without learning the facts? 49 Return to the place of judgment. For these men have borne false witness against her.”

50 Then all the people returned in haste. And the elders said to him, “Come, sit among us and inform us, for God has given you that right.” 51 And Daniel said to them, “Separate them far from each other, and I will examine them.”

52 When they were separated from each other, he summoned one of them and said to him, “You old relic of wicked days, your sins have now come home, which you have committed in the past, 53 pronouncing unjust judgments, condemning the innocent and letting the guilty go free, though the Lord said, ‘Do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.’ 54 Now then, if you really saw her, tell me this: Under what tree did you see them being intimate with each other?” He answered, “Under a mastic tree.” 55 And Daniel said, “Very well! You have lied against your own head, for the angel of God has received the sentence from God and will immediately cut you in two.”

56 Then he put him aside, and commanded them to bring the other. And he said to him, “You offspring of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust has perverted your heart. 57 This is how you both have been dealing with the daughters of Israel, and they were intimate with you through fear; but a daughter of Judah would not endure your wickedness. 58 Now then, tell me: Under what tree did you catch them being intimate with each other?” He answered, “Under an evergreen oak.” 59 And Daniel said to him, “Very well! You also have lied against your own head, for the angel of God is waiting with his sword to saw you in two, that he may destroy you both.”

60 Then all the assembly shouted loudly and blessed God, who saves those who hope in him. 61 And they rose against the two elders, for out of their own mouths Daniel had convicted them of bearing false witness; 62 and they did to them as they had wickedly planned to do to their neighbor; acting in accordance with the law of Moses, they put them to death. Thus innocent blood was saved that day.

63 And Hilki′ah and his wife praised God for their daughter Susanna, and so did Jo′akim her husband and all her kindred, because nothing shameful was found in her. 64 And from that day onward Daniel had a great reputation among the people.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"Now let us notice some of the similarities between this code and the later Hebrew laws. With the above laws from Hammurabi’s code can be compared the following Hebrew laws: A false witness was to be visited with the penalty which he purposed to bring upon his brother (Deut. 19:18, 19).16 The stealing and selling of a man was a capital offense (Exodus 22:2). Breaking in a house meant death (Exodus 21:16).17 In the case of adultery both the man and the other man’s wife were put to death (Deuteronomy 22:22). This law is identical with that found in Hammurabi’s code." "Light on the Old Testament from the Ancient Near East"
 
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hislegacy

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This is where good exegesis is important.


19 Against an elder receive not an accusation

Against an elder -

It really is that simple. The subject of the sentence is an elder, not a politician, not a lady in the field 1,400 years earlier, not your neighbor - but an elder.

Unless you change the scripture or add to it, it just doesn't read any other way.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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This is where good exegesis is important.




Against an elder -

It really is that simple. The subject of the sentence is an elder, not a politician, not a lady in the field 1,400 years earlier, not your neighbor - but an elder.

Unless you change the scripture or add to it, it just doesn't read any other way.

You are correct in the text you are referring to. But, when discussion of a topic one should take all of Scripture into account. I agree, not a politician, nor a lady, nor your neighbor unless they profess to be a Christian because Matthew 18:15-18 includes them. I think Paul was simply applying Jesus teaching on church discipline to Elders. In the past, I encountered Elders going to a strip club near my Mother's Apartment in Romulus Michigan. I tried the Matthew 18:15-18 route. He would not talk to me and the other witnesses. So, I video taped it and took it to the Pastor with advidatives from the Ladies there that he was not there to witness to people there. I asked the Pastor to come with me to talk with him. The Pastor refused to do so. The Church of the Nazarene failed to do any Church discipline at all because it was not other Christians with me to bear witness. So, I took a picture of his car in their parking lot and sent it to the local news station his Church with a note and mailed the same to his wife. She left him. The News Station did a story on it. And, only then that church removed him as an elder. This was over a decade ago.

Matthew 18:15-18
Easy-to-Read Version

When Someone Hurts You
15 “If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, go and tell them what they did wrong. Do this when you are alone with them. If they listen to you, then you have helped them to be your brother or sister again. 16 But if they refuse to listen, go to them again and take one or two people with you. Then there will be two or three people who will be able to tell all that happened. 17 If they refuse to listen to them, tell the church. And if they refuse to listen to the church, treat them as you would treat someone who does not know God or who is a tax collector.

18 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Code of Hammurabi
Translated by L. W. King

"9. If any one lose an article, and find it in the possession of another: if the person in whose possession the thing is found say "A merchant sold it to me, I paid for it before witnesses," and if the owner of the thing say, "I will bring witnesses who know my property," then shall the purchaser bring the merchant who sold it to him, and the witnesses before whom he bought it, and the owner shall bring witnesses who can identify his property. The judge shall examine their testimony--both of the witnesses before whom the price was paid, and of the witnesses who identify the lost article on oath. The merchant is then proved to be a thief and shall be put to death. The owner of the lost article receives his property, and he who bought it receives the money he paid from the estate of the merchant."
The Avalon Project : Code of Hammurabi
 
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hislegacy

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The Code of Hammurabi
Translated by L. W. King

"9. If any one lose an article, and find it in the possession of another: if the person in whose possession the thing is found say "A merchant sold it to me, I paid for it before witnesses," and if the owner of the thing say, "I will bring witnesses who know my property," then shall the purchaser bring the merchant who sold it to him, and the witnesses before whom he bought it, and the owner shall bring witnesses who can identify his property. The judge shall examine their testimony--both of the witnesses before whom the price was paid, and of the witnesses who identify the lost article on oath. The merchant is then proved to be a thief and shall be put to death. The owner of the lost article receives his property, and he who bought it receives the money he paid from the estate of the merchant."
The Avalon Project : Code of Hammurabi

Extra biblical texts, even ancient Babylonian carry zero weight or credibility in a scriptural discussion.
 
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