Bored with the church enamored with Israel

[Dan Perez]

Many errors.

Just curious as to why you left , and not going to pressure you at all !!

dan p

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Just curious as to why you left , and not going to pressure you at all !!

dan p

See comment 34

 

[oikonomia]

It's also good to love unbelieving Yehudim, even those that are enemies of the gospel, so that you might win them over. The first thing you must do, is tell them Yeshua did not abolish Torah. And then be blameless regarding Torah, including exterior wise, but not to their rabbinic custom. This is the minimal requirement for evangelizing them. But Paul went even further, sometimes even respecting talmudic custom in order to win them over.

When Paul went out of his way to give the impression that he was still keeping Torah regulations what happened?
It blew up in his face. They dragged him out of the temple positive that he had brought Gentiles into it also.

Do you think God honored Paul's playing along with James's suggestion that he take special measure to appease the
Jews? It appears to me that God Himself soveriegnly allowed such an interuption from the opposers of Paul's tactic to prove he was still a law keeper.

You know the story of Acts 21:17-32.

I believe he did try to hear the gospel message through the ears of a Pharisee to wisely reach them.
But he refused condemnation of his conscience when the majority of Jews refused.

He said he lived with a conscience void of offense before God and man.
He commended himself to the conscience of all men to observe his righteous living by the Gospel.

And Paul, looking intently at the Sanhedrin, said, Men, brothers,
I have conducted myself in all good conscience before God until this day. (Acts 23:1)

But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing, (2 Cor. 4:2)

 

[Guojing]

When Paul went out of his way to give the impression that he was still keeping Torah regulations what happened?
It blew up in his face. They dragged him out of the temple positive that he had brought Gentiles into it also.

Do you think God honored Paul's playing along with James's suggestion that he take special measure to appease the
Jews? It appears to me that God Himself soveriegnly allowed such an interuption from the opposers of Paul's tactic to prove he was still a law keeper.

You know the story of Acts 21:17-32.

I think most Christian readers interpret that passage as James agreeing with Paul that the Law has been nailed to the cross.

Both of them are just trying to "be all things to all men" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

 

[oikonomia]

I think most Christian readers interpret that passage as James agreeing with Paul that the Law has been nailed to the cross.

Both of them are just trying to "be all things to all men" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

I don't see it quite that way. I think it is very understandable that the new covenant way had to be received
by gradual transition. James still had one foot in the new way and one in the old.

Historically, I find this completely typical. They had a long time been in Judiasm.
And for a very pious and spiritual man like James to so suddenly transition is unlikely.

When I consider if I had been there I would probably had done similarly being
heavily influenced by the past traditions.

I think this characteristic of James being in a transitional stage is also reflected in his letter.
It is the word of God to me. But God used the Apostle Paul to pen some thirteen of the twenty seven New Testament books
and dear brother James one. Paul was more clear about God's new covenant than James imo.

I think Paul learned a big lesson from that failed tactic which may have
lay the groundwork for his writing of his clearest epistles on having been discharged from the law
and emmersed into the grace of living by the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

It's sad to see. It's good to be enamoured with Torah, and Hebrew language. But not the political Judaism (zionism), which is a counterfeit messianism (antichrist) seeking to establish a tyrant Jewish supremacist king messiah by any means (who does not teach Torah to non-jews, only noachide laws).
This tyrant king if he comes is set to deceive many of these zionist christians.
The hexagram is the star of remphan. The two witnesses will wreck their false messianic age, their false prophet and king, and their masonic third temple.

Do you think Christians should be more concerned with the building of the physical temple in Jerusalem than
the building up of the habitation [dwelling place] of God in spirit - the church?

I do not say there is no need for the temple. I ask if Christians should feel that Jerusalem temple is more
important than the building up of the living temple of the church? This is an honest question.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:19-22)

 

[Dan Perez]

The end game is to promote deception to geopolitical Israel. This is why I left. Jesus Christ of Nazareth did not command us to decieve, He commanded us to harvest for His Kingdom. Blessings

Will you explain what does the end game , means ??

Again , just curious and no pressure !!

dan p

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Will you explain what does the end game , means ??

Again , just curious and no pressure !!

dan p

Dispensationalisim, unbeknownst to their proponents, promotes deception and death, both physical and spiritual to 1/3 of the population in geopolitical Israel. Here is a short synopsis. I repented from this theology long ago.

Dispensationalism's Future Holocaust Problem - The American Vision

The Dispensational system has a horrific future in store for Jewish people living in Israel. What does the Bible say about the future of Israel as it relates to the question of Jerusalem’s prophetic significance? The Old Testament teaches that Israel was taken into captivity in two parts: first...

americanvision.org

 

[HopeSings]

I notice that many dear Christians seem to have rather given up on the church
and are enamored with prophecy about Israel.

When the kingdom of God in the millennium is brought up they run to Daniel and the OT
and go on and on about promises to Israel.

When Revelation or Matthew is discussed MOST of their understanding in influenced by OT prophecy about Israel.
I do not under estimate the importance of God keeping His promises to Israel.

But this ignoring and under appreciating the church is not good.
Why give up in boredom on the glorious church?

She is God's eternal purpose and Christ's bride and wife. (Eph. 5:25-27)
She is "the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)

I love all people but the modern day nation called Israel are not Christian. No nation is the church or spiritual Israel. Israel and the church are in the heart. That's my holy land, temple, house built on a rock, and church.

Isaiah 60:22 A little one shall become a thousand,
And a small one a strong nation.
I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.”

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Colossians 3:. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

 

[Marilyn C]

I notice that many dear Christians seem to have rather given up on the church
and are enamored with prophecy about Israel.

When the kingdom of God in the millennium is brought up they run to Daniel and the OT
and go on and on about promises to Israel.

When Revelation or Matthew is discussed MOST of their understanding in influenced by OT prophecy about Israel.
I do not under estimate the importance of God keeping His promises to Israel.

But this ignoring and under appreciating the church is not good.
Why give up in boredom on the glorious church?

She is God's eternal purpose and Christ's bride and wife. (Eph. 5:25-27)
She is "the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)

Hi oikonomia,

The Body of Christ is the NEW MAN. It is NOT female. Eph. 5: 25 - 27 concerns an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own body as Christ loves His Body. Nothing of a bride there.

I would say that people are looking to what God is doing in Israel as very soon the Lord will come for us and then deal with Israel and the nations.

 

[oikonomia]

Hi oikonomia,

The Body of Christ is the NEW MAN. It is NOT female. Eph. 5: 25 - 27 concerns an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own body as Christ loves His Body. Nothing of a bride there.

Marilyn C, you can't be serious. Please tell me you're not being serious. You must be "tongue in cheek" playing around.

I have a hard time believing you actually are so serious as to say the church only has the aspect of a man in "one new man."
You should know good and well that God's plan is very, very profound and needs not just one "picture" to communicate its
nature. This profound eternal purpose requires more than just one aspect to be shown.

So, yes, yes. . . the church from one angle is the one new man. There is no debate from me about
that being not true.

Now what else is an aspect of the church? SHE . . . is a Wife and Bride of the Bridegroom Christ.
Do you actually believe there is not this angle of the revelation of the church shown in Ephesians ??

Do you actually think we have to choose ONE or the OTHER vision of the church?
Do you think because Christ is "the Son of Man" therefore we should not say He is "the Son of God?"

Nay, there is the truth of the church being a new humanity, a man to express God's image and dominion.
We need not, and indeen MUST not say because of this the church is not also the FEMALE of the one and only real male,
Christ her Savior, her Bridegroom, her Husband.

Anyway, being bold as you are, I thank you for rekindling my interest in this thread.

I would say that people are looking to what God is doing in Israel as very soon the Lord will come for us and then deal with Israel and the nations.

I would agree with you.
But the book of Ephesians is the one NT letter really completely dedicated to the nature of the church from VARIED angles.

And from one angle of this profound eternal purpose, the church is the "one new man". No question about it!
And from another angle SHE is the real woman brought out from Christ that is beought back to Him as His eternal wife.

And to throw out one truth for the sake of the other is not good.
Having said this in chapter five Paul clearly is speaking all his heart about marriage to uphold the truth that
we are His "SHE" as a wife. Pay close attention to these three words - BUT . . . I . . . SPEAK.

For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31,32)

Like - Ie. "I have some great advice for married couples here. And this passage may be read at many, many weddings. BUT . .
I . . . SPEAK with regard to Christ and the church. Don't miss this! The REAL issue here is Christ (the unique Husband in this universe) and His church (the unique wife in this universe to Christ.)"

Before you whip off a rebuttal, I implore you to look carefully at the Apostle Paul's real burden in all these words on the healthy
husband / wife . . . wife / husband relationship.

This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (v.31)

 

[oikonomia]

Hymn: The Church is Christ’s own Body

Christian hymns and spiritual songs with wonderful truths and music.

www.hymnal.net

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn C, you can't be serious. Please tell me you're not being serious. You must be "tongue in cheek" playing around.

I have a hard time believing you actually are so serious as to say the church only has the aspect of a man in "one new man."
You should know good and well that God's plan is very, very profound and needs not just one "picture" to communicate its
nature. This profound eternal purpose requires more than just one aspect to be shown.

So, yes, yes. . . the church from one angle is the one new man. There is no debate from me about
that being not true.

Now what else is an aspect of the church? SHE . . . is a Wife and Bride of the Bridegroom Christ.
Do you actually believe there is not this angle of the revelation of the church shown in Ephesians ??

Do you actually think we have to choose ONE or the OTHER vision of the church?
Do you think because Christ is "the Son of Man" therefore we should not say He is "the Son of God?"

Nay, there is the truth of the church being a new humanity, a man to express God's image and dominion.
We need not, and indeen MUST not say because of this the church is not also the FEMALE of the one and only real male,
Christ her Savior, her Bridegroom, her Husband.

Anyway, being bold as you are, I thank you for rekindling my interest in this thread.


I would agree with you.
But the book of Ephesians is the one NT letter really completely dedicated to the nature of the church from VARIED angles.

And from one angle of this profound eternal purpose, the church is the "one new man". No question about it!
And from another angle SHE is the real woman brought out from Christ that is beought back to Him as His eternal wife.

And to throw out one truth for the sake of the other is not good.
Having said this in chapter five Paul clearly is speaking all his heart about marriage to uphold the truth that
we are His "SHE" as a wife. Pay close attention to these three words - BUT . . . I . . . SPEAK.

For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31,32)

Like - Ie. "I have some great advice for married couples here. And this passage may be read at many, many weddings. BUT . .
I . . . SPEAK with regard to Christ and the church. Don't miss this! The REAL issue here is Christ (the unique Husband in this universe) and His church (the unique wife in this universe to Christ.)"

Before you whip off a rebuttal, I implore you to look carefully at the Apostle Paul's real burden in all these words on the healthy
husband / wife . . . wife / husband relationship.

This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (v.31)

I am very serious as I was not taught that the Church is the bride. The eternal Purposes of God are very profound and to be seriously looked at. So, I am not being flippant here.

As you said the book of Ephesians is dedicated to the Church. We read in the first four chapters of the doctrine of the church the New Man. Then Paul goes on in chapters 5 & 6 to EXHORT people - wives, husbands, children, bondservants as to obeying and submitting to the Lord. This is NOT doctrine but exhortations. Doctrine is NOT based on exhortations. You have only given one scripture for this belief, and it is an exhortation.

And personally why do you want to `marry` the Lord, or why does He want to marry millions of men and women? What is the reason?

 

[Hazelelponi]

And personally why do you want to `marry` the Lord, or why does He want to marry millions of men and women? What is the reason?

To answer this question we have to ask: What is marriage?

Marriage is a covenant.

So basically your asking why do I want to be in Covenant with God? Well, there's quite a few benefits to being covered under the New Covenant with God, and no downsides that I can think of.

Would you like me to list all the benefits of being covered under the blood of Christ and entered into the New Covenant?

What else is marriage?

Marriage is relationship; no one on earth knows me better than my husband. When I have a problem I can go to him, when I just want companionship he's there.

Why would I not want a real relationship with the Creator of the heavens and earth?

HE knows me better than anyone on earth and when I have a problem I can go to Him, when I just want companionship He's there...

This is why I like being married to the Lord. I am proud to be included as the Bride of Christ - because I am proud of Him and His Work.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I notice that many dear Christians seem to have rather given up on the church
and are enamored with prophecy about Israel.

I noticed this thread was created less than 3 months since the most horrific genocidal attack on the Jewish people in any of our lifetimes.

Of course people will be talking about Israel, it's human nature when something like this happens and a country is forced to go to war.

There are several eschatological positions people hold based on the Scriptural text.

Eschatological definition: relating to death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

The dispensationalist view is the one that sees a specific land fulfillment for the Hebrew race (we call them the Jewish race now).

Most people don't read scriptures this way as there are several other legitimate eschatological positions to hold, but of course with Israel being political allies of western countries and having recently been attacked and now at war, there's quite a few legitimate reasons unrelated to any faith to support Israel (the nation) in the political arena.

I am more concerned about those people who are bothered by people talking about Israel days/months after the worst attack in our lifetime. I find myself often wondering why Israel as a topic bothers people so much.

 

[oikonomia]

I am very serious as I was not taught that the Church is the bride.

That was the shortage of those who didn't see this or at least never told you.
You are still on your journey into truth, as I. Don't repeat thier neglect.

The eternal Purposes of God are very profound and to be seriously looked at. So, I am not being flippant here.

Good, because our destination is with the New Jerusalem - the bride. (I'll return to Ephesians in a moment).

And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:2)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely. (Rev. 22:17)

Do not think Christ is going to marry a golden mountain 1,500 miles high made with precious gems.
It is a SIGN (Rev. 1:1). It is the redeemed people - sanctified, transformed, conformed, resurrected, transfigured and glorifed, built up together that is His wife.

Ephesians 5 definitely speaks of this destiny that comes out of Christ as her source and is brought back to Christ as His loving counterpart.

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her
that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,
that He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:25-27)

If you miss this significance of marriage thinking Paul is just telling husbands and wives how to behave, you really miss the point.
Human marriage is not the real marriage. It is a shadow of the real marriage. The real joining of Christ with the church is the
reality to which human marriage is pointing.

How Paul speaks of Christ's santifying the church washing away oldness, wrinkles, spots, defects with the rhema of His word
is also Christ's own mighty petition to His Father in John 17.

And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word,
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (John 17:20-23)

As you said the book of Ephesians is dedicated to the Church. We read in the first four chapters of the doctrine of the church the New Man. Then Paul goes on in chapters 5 & 6 to EXHORT people - wives, husbands, children, bondservants as to obeying and submitting to the Lord. This is NOT doctrine but exhortations. Doctrine is NOT based on exhortations. You have only given one scripture for this belief, and it is an exhortation.

There is exhortation here also - Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, . . . (Eph. 2:11)
We should for this exhortation's sake miss the larger burden.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (vs. 19-22)

There is exhortation here also - Therefore I ask you not to faint at my afflictions for your sake, since they are your glory. (3:13)
We should so regard the request of the apostle as to ignore the larger burden.
That in Christ Jesus the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the Body . . . (v. 6a)

There is exhortion in connection with the household of God and the Body (chs. 2,3)
There is exhortation in chapter 4 as well - This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind, (4:17)

Surrounding this embeded exhortation is revelation concerning the Body of Christ.
One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling; (v.4)
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v. 12)
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (v.16)

As well as speaking of the Body in this chapter Paul also speaks of the growth of God in the church
to eventually produce a full-grown man. Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (v. 13)

There is exhortation to not lie anymore and controling the temper - Therefore having put off the lie, speak truth each one with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your indignation, (vs. 25,26)
We should not let the exhortation overshadow the matter of the saints putting on "the new man."
And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality. (v. 24)


In the same manner, embedded in the revelation of the Christ as the Husband to His wife the church is mentioned some
practical exhortation.

Wives, be subject to your husbands . . . ; (5:22)
Husbands, love your wives . . . (v. 25)
How can we miss his explanation of the mystery of Eve being taken from Adam and brought back to Adam for marriage?

Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (25b-27)

For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31,32)

And personally why do you want to `marry` the Lord, or why does He want to marry millions of men and women? What is the reason?

Corporately it is the destination - the destiny of every redeemed human being to be a part of this great corporate marriage of Christ
and His people.

God used the practical human need of marriage as a type of the great reality of the joining together for eternity of
Christ and His billions of redeemed saints.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God. . . (9b-11a)

And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. (v. 3)

So you see the living habitation of God and the living temple of God is God's dwelling place and also
Christ's bride and wife.

So we ought to cultivate this divine love for Him because this is going to be our eternal enjoyment.
You ought not to imagine the imperfections of natural human matrimony so as they cloud your vision.

 

[oikonomia]

I noticed this thread was created less than 3 months since the most horrific genocidal attack on the Jewish people in any of our lifetimes.

I created this thread before the October attack not since it.
Of course bad things have happened to Israel and the Jewish people from long ago.

Of course people will be talking about Israel, it's human nature when something like this happens and a country is forced to go to war.

There are several eschatological positions people hold based on the Scriptural text.

Eschatological definition: relating to death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

Isn't it also related to the marriage dinner of the Lamb and His bridal army descending with Him in the battle of Armegeddon?

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God. (Rev. 19:6-9)

That is eschatology too, isn't it? A remnant of saints at least have made themselves ready for the marriage and thier righteous living -
their righteous deeds, their righteous behaviors have woven for them a suitable garment for a wedding.

And this same wedding garment - clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
is the very fighting garment with which she does battle against the enemies of Christ.
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:14)

So eschatology includes a remnant of saints who have not neglected to make themselves ready with righteousness [sic]
qualifying them for a marriage feast with Christ. And also thus qualified the same readiness prepares them to fight
with Him following Him from heaven to Armageddon. See all of Revelation 19.

The dispensationalist view is the one that sees a specific land fulfillment for the Hebrew race (we call them the Jewish race now).

Most people don't read scriptures this way as there are several other legitimate eschatological positions to hold, but of course with Israel being political allies of western countries and having recently been attacked and now at war, there's quite a few legitimate reasons unrelated to any faith to support Israel (the nation) in the political arena.

I am more concerned about those people who are bothered by people talking about Israel days/months after the worst attack in our lifetime. I find myself often wondering why Israel as a topic bothers people so much.

You may see that I did not intend this thread to be a political discussion.
The promises to God to the nation of Israel will surely be kept.
But this thread is that Christians not regard the promises concerning His church as anti-climax. Far,far from it.

As a matter of fact it is a wooing back in love of Christ of love and preparation which is the catalyst of the end times and
the consummation of the church age.

Critical mass of living overcoming saints must SEE that they must come back to Christ the first love - the One
preeminent in all things. For the sake of the whole Body of Christ a remnant of overcomers must woo the Lord back
to come for them.

I know your works and your labor and your endurance and that you cannot bear evil men; and you have tried those who call themselves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false; And you have endurance and have borne all things because of My name and have not grown weary.

But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love.
Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works; but if not, I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent. (Rev. 2:4,5)

And in doing this He also takes care of many other world-wide problems including justice for
Israel and the nations.

 

[oikonomia]

I would like to contribute two songs. Enjoy and sing along with me.
One on the church being the New Man from Ephesians 4.

The other song is on the Lord washing and sanctifying His body the wife from Ephesians 5.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I created this thread before the October attack not since it.
Of course bad things have happened to Israel and the Jewish people from long ago.

Isn't it also related to the marriage dinner of the Lamb and His bridal army descending with Him in the battle of Armegeddon?

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.

And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
And he said to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God. (Rev. 19:6-9)

That is eschatology too, isn't it? A remnant of saints at least have made themselves ready for the marriage and thier righteous living -
their righteous deeds, their righteous behaviors have woven for them a suitable garment for a wedding.

And this same wedding garment - clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
is the very fighting garment with which she does battle against the enemies of Christ.
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:14)

So eschatology includes a remnant of saints who have not neglected to make themselves ready with righteousness [sic]
qualifying them for a marriage feast with Christ. And also thus qualified the same readiness prepares them to fight
with Him following Him from heaven to Armageddon. See all of Revelation 19.


You may see that I did not intend this thread to be a political discussion.
The promises to God to the nation of Israel will surely be kept.
But this thread is that Christians not regard the promises concerning His church as anti-climax. Far,far from it.

As a matter of fact it is a wooing back in love of Christ of love and preparation which is the catalyst of the end times and
the consummation of the church age.

Critical mass of living overcoming saints must SEE that they must come back to Christ the first love - the One
preeminent in all things. For the sake of the whole Body of Christ a remnant of overcomers must woo the Lord back
to come for them.

I know your works and your labor and your endurance and that you cannot bear evil men; and you have tried those who call themselves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false; And you have endurance and have borne all things because of My name and have not grown weary.

But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love.
Remember therefore where you have fallen from and repent and do the first works; but if not, I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent. (Rev. 2:4,5)

And in doing this He also takes care of many other world-wide problems including justice for
Israel and the nations.

You just used a lot of colors I can't see. Let me see if there's a way for me to figure out what your post says...

 

[Marilyn C]

That was the shortage of those who didn't see this or at least never told you.
You are still on your journey into truth, as I. Don't repeat thier neglect.

Good, because our destination is with the New Jerusalem - the bride. (I'll return to Ephesians in a moment).

And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:2)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come; let him who wills take the water of life freely. (Rev. 22:17)

Do not think Christ is going to marry a golden mountain 1,500 miles high made with precious gems.
It is a SIGN (Rev. 1:1). It is the redeemed people - sanctified, transformed, conformed, resurrected, transfigured and glorifed, built up together that is His wife.

Ephesians 5 definitely speaks of this destiny that comes out of Christ as her source and is brought back to Christ as His loving counterpart.

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her
that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,
that He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:25-27)

If you miss this significance of marriage thinking Paul is just telling husbands and wives how to behave, you really miss the point.
Human marriage is not the real marriage. It is a shadow of the real marriage. The real joining of Christ with the church is the
reality to which human marriage is pointing.

How Paul speaks of Christ's santifying the church washing away oldness, wrinkles, spots, defects with the rhema of His word
is also Christ's own mighty petition to His Father in John 17.

And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word,
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (John 17:20-23)


There is exhortation here also - Therefore remember that once you, the Gentiles in the flesh, . . . (Eph. 2:11)
We should for this exhortation's sake miss the larger burden.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (vs. 19-22)

There is exhortation here also - Therefore I ask you not to faint at my afflictions for your sake, since they are your glory. (3:13)
We should so regard the request of the apostle as to ignore the larger burden.
That in Christ Jesus the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the Body . . . (v. 6a)

There is exhortion in connection with the household of God and the Body (chs. 2,3)
There is exhortation in chapter 4 as well - This therefore I say and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind, (4:17)

Surrounding this embeded exhortation is revelation concerning the Body of Christ.
One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling; (v.4)
For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v. 12)
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (v.16)

As well as speaking of the Body in this chapter Paul also speaks of the growth of God in the church
to eventually produce a full-grown man. Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (v. 13)

There is exhortation to not lie anymore and controling the temper - Therefore having put off the lie, speak truth each one with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your indignation, (vs. 25,26)
We should not let the exhortation overshadow the matter of the saints putting on "the new man."
And put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality. (v. 24)


In the same manner, embedded in the revelation of the Christ as the Husband to His wife the church is mentioned some
practical exhortation.

Wives, be subject to your husbands . . . ; (5:22)
Husbands, love your wives . . . (v. 25)
How can we miss his explanation of the mystery of Eve being taken from Adam and brought back to Adam for marriage?

Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (25b-27)

For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31,32)


Corporately it is the destination - the destiny of every redeemed human being to be a part of this great corporate marriage of Christ
and His people.

God used the practical human need of marriage as a type of the great reality of the joining together for eternity of
Christ and His billions of redeemed saints.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God. . . (9b-11a)

And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. (v. 3)

So you see the living habitation of God and the living temple of God is God's dwelling place and also
Christ's bride and wife.

So we ought to cultivate this divine love for Him because this is going to be our eternal enjoyment.
You ought not to imagine the imperfections of natural human matrimony so as they cloud your vision.

We have both been taught differently and believe what we know as the truth. Still, it behoves us to present what we know, but not to ague.

1.Our destination is NOT the New Jerusalem but the very throne of the Lord in the highest, the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

2.The Greek is `it` referring to the Body, and not `her.` (Eph. 5: 26)

3.You have a lot of scriptures on the New Man and fully grown man. So, where is that New Man in eternity?

4.The `joining together` is the Head and His Body, no greater connection.

5.The `bride` in scripture is Israel. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 3: 19 & 20)

6. So, do you speak to young men, lesbians & homosexuals telling them that when they come to Jesus they will be His bride?