I have a problem with Paul and his version of events.

Clare73 said:

Nowhere is Paul in disagreement with Christ, having received his teaching from Christ personally (Gal 1:11-12).

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Ok, so then is it a faulty interpretation when people say that all one must do is accept Christ but they don't have to actually be or act like a Christian? I'm not saying Paul wrote a false doctrine but when people began interpreting the Bible with no guidance or teaching, they have misinterpreted what he said to mean that we can sin all we want once we accept Christ. No need to attend church, no need to stop being a drunk, prostitute, thief, or murderer because we get that golden ticket to heaven upon acceptance of Christ but if we truly do accept Christ, this is what Christ had to say about it.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you believe that if we are Christian we need to obey God or just pay lip service? Please defend your interpretation and I will continue to quote Jesus when he says we must obey him.

Clare73 said:

Nowhere is Paul in disagreement with Christ, having received his teaching from Christ personally (Gal 1:11-12).

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Paul himself doesn't disagree but the way people interpret Paul's writings IS in disagreement with Christ

rturner76 said:

Ok, so then is it a faulty interpretation when people say that all one must do is accept Christ but they don't have to actually be or act like a Christian? I'm not saying Paul wrote a false doctrine but when people began interpreting the Bible with no guidance or teaching,

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There is nothing hard to understand nor confusing in the NT regarding Christian living.

rturner76 said:

they have misinterpreted what he said to mean that we can sin all we want once we accept Christ.

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That's not the fault of Scripture which is clear on the matter.

rturner76 said:

Paul himself doesn't disagree but the way people interpret Paul's writings IS in disagreement with Christ

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What does that have to do with witnesses to Paul's experiences with God?

Clare73 said:

There is nothing hard to understand nor confusing in the NT regarding Christian living

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Many seem to be confused about the topic of obedience to God. Some say it's nice but not a requirement and some say that it is a requirement to the best of one's ability.

Clare73 said:

What does that have to do with witnesses to Paul's experiences with God?

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First, he has to witness of his own experience besides himself. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. My question would be why would Jesus tell his followers that obedience is expected but tell Paul that it's not?

rturner76 said:

Paul himself doesn't disagree but the way people interpret Paul's writings IS in disagreement with Christ
Many seem to be confused about the topic of obedience to God. Some say it's nice but not a requirement and some say that it is a requirement to the best of one's ability.

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Love of God and neighbor in the Holy Spirit naturally obeys the law (Ro 13:8).

rturner76 said:

First, he has to witness of his own experience besides himself. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. My question would be
why would Jesus tell his followers that obedience is expected but tell Paul that it's not?

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My question would be have you read the NT for yourself?

Obedience has nothing to do with salvation by faith, and not by works.

Obedience has everything to do with the Christian life which follows after faith alone in Jesus Christ has saved.

Clare73 said:

Love of God and neighbor in the Holy Spirit naturally obeys the law (Ro 13:8).

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It should but is it required?

Clare73 said:

My question would be have you read the NT for yourself?

Obedience has nothing to do with salvation by faith, and not by works.

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I have read quite a bit about that and just as important, I have been guided through it by a learned scholar. I prefer a Church approves rather than "wing it."

Clare73 said:

Obedience has everything to do with the Christian life which follows after faith alone in Jesus Christ has saved.

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Gret so you DO believe that living a Christian life requires obedience. The motivation being gifted by the Holy Spirit through faith of course. So if we DO need to obey to live a Christian life? I think there is a stigma that many (if not most) churches that say we are not allowed to consider obedience as part of our faith. So when we are given the free gift of grace through faith, would it be preferable to God that we keep that faith and live in it, as in living faith rather than dead faith? This is important because mob guys and hit men have faith, and so do some serial killers, some of them doing what they do in the name of their faith. Do you see what it is based on faith but not faith alone?

rturner76 said:

It should but is it required?

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It's not love if it is disobedience.

rturner76 said:

I have read quite a bit about that and just as important, I have been guided through it by a learned scholar. I prefer a Church approves rather than "wing it."

Gret so you DO believe that living a Christian life requires obedience. The motivation being gifted by the Holy Spirit through faith of course. So if we DO need to obey to live a Christian life? I think there is a stigma that many (if not most) churches that say we are not allowed to consider obedience as part of our faith.

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True faith always has obedience, but in salvation itself by forgiveness of sin, that obedience has no merit whatsoever, and buys nothing.
Salvation itself is totally by the work of Christ on the cross, and by no other work added to it.
All the glory goes to God through the glory of the Son.

rturner76 said:

So when we are given the free gift of grace through faith, would it be preferable to God that we keep that faith and live in it, as in
living faith rather than dead faith?

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True faith has obedient works, but those works do not count toward salvation; i.e., forgiveness of our sin debt.
Works of obedience are what sanctify after salvation.

There are two steps to being in the body of Christ; i.e., saved.
1) faith alone (considered apart from its works) for the forgiveness of our sin debt; i.e., salvation--all the glory must go to God,
2) faith's works of obedience to sanctify us in the Christian life after the forgiveness of our sin debt by faith alone.

Clare73 said:

Love of God and neighbor in the Holy Spirit naturally obeys the law (Ro 13:8).

My question would be have you read the NT for yourself?

Obedience has nothing to do with salvation by faith, and not by works.

Obedience has everything to do with the Christian life which follows after faith alone in Jesus Christ has saved.

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obedience not necessary? did you learn nothing from Adam and Eve?

Clare73 said:

It's not love if it is disobedience.

True faith always has obedience, but in salvation itself by forgiveness of sin, that obedience has no merit whatsoever, and buys nothing.
Salvation itself is totally by the work of Christ on the cross, and by no other work added to it.
All the glory goes to God through the glory of the Son.

True faith has obedient works, but those works do not count toward salvation; i.e., forgiveness of our sin debt.
Works of obedience are what sanctify after salvation.

There are two steps to being in the body of Christ; i.e., saved.
1) faith alone (considered apart from its works) for the forgiveness of our sin debt; i.e., salvation--all the glory must go to God,
2) faith's works of obedience to sanctify us in the Christian life after the forgiveness of our sin debt by faith alone.

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James brother of Jesus no less said faith without works is dead! did you forget this?

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Clare73 said:

Love of God and neighbor in the Holy Spirit naturally obeys the law (Ro 13:8).

My question would be have you read the NT for yourself?

Obedience has nothing to do with salvation by faith, and not by works.

Obedience has everything to do with the Christian life which follows after faith alone in Jesus Christ has saved.

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I'm presuming you mean obedience prior to salvation.

Faith without an intention toward obedience is arguably (James' argument) not faith.

Clare73 said:

It's not love if it is disobedience.

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So faith is not alone is it. The Bible doesn't say "you are saved by grace" full stop. I'm assuming that you know this but it says something else like "through faith." Gace alone? No, Grace through faith? Yes. Let me try and describe it another way if you would indulge me........

We could possibly ask some questions while interpreting this verse. "Grace is by faith alone." Does it really say that? How do we obtain grace? Possibly through faith? "It is the free gift of God." I can see how someone could easily misinterpret this passage. It also does not say "by works alone. I have never believed that and I'm pretty sure most of the people in The Church don't believe that. Since before I was confirmed I have always believed in "grace through faith." For some reason a movement happened where certain believers decided to separate the teo but they go together in every way.

Clare73 said:

True faith always has obedience, but in salvation itself by forgiveness of sin, that obedience has no merit whatsoever, and buys nothing.
Salvation itself is totally by the work of Christ on the cross, and by no other work added to it.
All the glory goes to God through the glory of the Son.

Click to expand...

Ok, and how are we granted grace? Through faith. We can't manifest our own salvation but we can surely respond to Jesu's call. Otherwise we would be talking about universal salvation.

Clare73 said:

There are two steps to being in the body of Christ; i.e., saved.
1) faith alone (considered apart from its works) for the forgiveness of our sin debt; i.e., salvation--all the glory must go to God,
2) faith's works of obedience to sanctify us in the Christian life after the forgiveness of our sin debt by faith alone.

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1) Again the verse does not say "through faith alone." or through grace alone." They go together. See, this is what happens when people decide things like, "We had the same doctrine for 1500 years but I think it's wrong." "I think I'm a more qualified theologian than the early church fathers." We can study on our own but we need a solid teacher to help us bring it all together.

rturner76 said:

So faith is not alone is it. The Bible doesn't say "you are saved by grace" full stop.

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Agreed. . .it states precisely that we are "saved by grace through faith" and goes on to add, "not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

rturner76 said:

I'm assuming that you know this but it says something else like "through faith." Gace alone? No, Grace through faith? Yes. Let me try and describe it another way if you would indulge me........

We could possibly ask some questions while interpreting this verse. "Grace is by faith alone."

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Grammatically, that is incorrect, for "grace" is not the subject of the sentence.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith."

The grammar is clear and does not allow "grace" as the subject of the sentence.
The subject of the sentence is "you," the means of salvation is faith , the means of faith is grace. . .it's grace-->faith-->salvation.

rturner76 said:

Does it really say that? How do we obtain grace? Possibly through faith? "It is the free gift of God." I can see how someone could easily misinterpret this passage. It also does not say "by works alone."

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It states, "not by works."
It states "through faith"
It states "by grace through faith."
The faith through which we are saved. . .is by grace.

rturner76 said:

I have never believed that and I'm pretty sure most of the people in The Church don't believe that. Since before I was confirmed I have always believed in "grace through faith."

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But that's not what the text states, which is "by grace through faith."
Faith is the effect of grace, faith not the cause of grace. . .rather grace is the cause of faith.

The operating power in salvation is grace alone, faith is simply the means through which the power (grace) operates.
And that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), it is not from ourselves.

rturner76 said:

For some reason a movement happened where certain believers decided to separate the teo but they go together in every way.
Ok, and how are we granted grace? Through faith.

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No. . .the text is salvation is by grace through faith. . .faith is the means through which grace operates to salvation.
Grace is the operating power, faith is the means through which the power of grace operates.

rturner76 said:

1) Again the verse does not say "through faith alone." or through grace alone."

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But it does. . .it states "by grace you have been saved through faith. . .not of works," (Eph 2:8-9)
which means only grace operating through faith, not through works, saves.

rturner76 said:

They go together. See, this is what happens when people decide things like, "We had the same doctrine for 1500 years but I think it's wrong." "I think I'm a more qualified theologian than the early church fathers."

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The church fathers are not the origin of doctrine, the Scriptures are the origin.
And its grammar determines its meaning.

And the study and understanding of Scripture is not limited to church heirarchy.
The Bereans (regular "folks") studied the Scriptures every day to see if what the apostle Paul said/preached was true (Ac 17:11).

Clare73 said:

That's a Holy Spirit issue.

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Amen.

Clare73 said:

Agreed. . .it states precisely that we are "saved by grace through faith" and goes on to add, "not by works."

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So why do we seem to be in disagreement?

Clare73 said:

The subject of the sentence is "you," the means of salvation is faith , the means of faith is grace. . .it's grace-->faith-->salvation

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Right, grace and faith like I keep saying.

Clare73 said:

t states, "not by works."

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This is where a teacher IS helpful. Do you think he is talking about works of faith or works of the law? Have a think on that. Refrence a few verses in James, he has a lot to say about faith.:

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment

What law do you think James is referring to? From my understanding, it's the law of love which is the law of faith. Then in the some chapter;

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

To paraphrase James is basically saying If you have faith, act like it."

Do you disagree with James?

Same Chapter 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Paul himself says:

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you see the difference between works of love and doing works to impress others? If it is done in love it is a good work, if it's done for a reward, it's not a work of love.

Clare73 said:

Faith is the effect of grace, faith not the cause of grace. . .rather grace is the cause of faith.

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So do we need both (faith and grace) or not?

Clare73 said:

faith is the means through which grace operates to salvation.

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Just above you said, "faith is the means through which grace operates to salvation."

Clare73 said:

Grace is the operating power, faith is the means through which the power of grace operates.

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So it's not "grace alone." I'm glad we cleared that up.

Clare73 said:

only grace operating through faith, not through works, saves.

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Are you talking about works of the law or works of love? Because if it's works of love, one shows how strong their faith is by committing works of love.

Clare73 said:

The church fathers are not the origin of doctrine, the Scriptures are the origin.
And its grammar determines its meaning.

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They weren't the scribes but they were the ones who decided which of the written works would be set aside as Holy. Do you for some reason feel like they didn't possess the knowledge to separate them? I'm sure you know that the Apostles and their followers wrote many other letters.

Clare73 said:

And the study and understanding of Scripture is not limited to church heirarchy.
The Bereans (regular "folks") studied the Scriptures every day to see if what the apostle Paul said/preached was true (Ac 17:11).

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Of course, we can study on our own. But we need teachers to make sure we are studying it right. Do you honestly think that the Bereans had no teachers? Wait a minute, wasn't Christ a teacher? Weren't all of the Apostles and their students teachers? I don't understand why someone would think a teacher in unnecessary (unless that's what they were taught).

This is a great topic.

JesusFollowerForever said:

Claire in honesty, Jesus said and DID it all!

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JesusFollowerForever said:

if you removed Paul's epistle from the bible the gospel is still there, the salvation offered by Jesus is still there do you understand this?

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Only Jesus could offer the perfect sacrifice for sins. No one else could.
However, Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." John 14:12
Acts 1:8

If we remove the 13 letters of Paul as well the Acts of the apostles, we close the Gospel prematurely, at Jesus' resurrection.
We have even left out his ascension.

That's actually what most have done, because they do not acknowledge that Jesus left work unfinished, and that he guides his followers from heaven, even to this day.
This failing on their part, hinders them from searching for Christ's brother who make up the Church today, and causes them to be spiritually famished, and led by false religious teachings.

JesusFollowerForever said:

all of the old testament points to Jesus None of it points to Paul. Why people put Paul words first is beyond me.

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I'm with you on that.
Anyone who put's Paul's words first, is making a mistake.
They need to realize that the apostles worked in harmony with Jesus direction.
The assignments they were given, was in furtherance of the Gospel.

JesusFollowerForever said:

You may say that paul was sent to the gentiles;

1. Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

but I say with proof that Peter was sent to the gentiles God Himself appointed him, cant you see? if you remove paul nothing changes except perhaps we would have clarity and peace !

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Was Peter sent to the Gentiles, or was Peter used to open the way for the Gentiles?
That's a good scripture, but what it shows, is that God used Peter who was an appointed man in Jerusalem, to give clear proof that the Gospel was to be declared to the Gentiles. See Acts 11:18
Peter unlocked the door, but none of the apostles from then on, were restricted, to either Jews, or Gentiles.

According to Luke, Paul was specifically chosen by God, to go to the Gentiles. Acts 9:15
Luke added, that "God would show Paul how much he must suffer for God's name." Acts 9:16

JesusFollowerForever said:

Still no answer from you on Paul's witnesses about his secret exchanges with Jesus? because there are no witnesses it is his word only.

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Luke.
Please don't leave me out JFF.
This is a really good topic. What do you say to Luke?

Did you notice that Luke account agrees with Paul's?
Acts 13:2 => Galatians 2:9

If we remove Paul's writings, we do an injustice to scripture, because we get to decide that Paul's words do not count, and we get to decide that Paul lied.
At Galatians 2:7, Paul said, "On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted to preach the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised."

Was Paul speaking the truth?
If we believe 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, we would answer yes. If we don't, we are picking and choosing what we will accept, or dismiss, and this is not what Jesus, or any of his followers do.

rturner76 said:

Ok, so then is it a faulty interpretation when people say that all one must do is accept Christ but they don't have to actually be or act like a Christian? I'm not saying Paul wrote a false doctrine but when people began interpreting the Bible with no guidance or teaching, they have misinterpreted what he said to mean that we can sin all we want once we accept Christ. No need to attend church, no need to stop being a drunk, prostitute, thief, or murderer because we get that golden ticket to heaven upon acceptance of Christ but if we truly do accept Christ, this is what Christ had to say about it.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Do you believe that if we are Christian we need to obey God or just pay lip service? Please defend your interpretation and I will continue to quote Jesus when he says we must obey him.

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Such ones do not realize that they are contradicting themselves, as well as contradicting the scriptures.
It's one of those things that happen when a person stubbornly fixes their mind on what they hear preached over and over from the pulpit, and it becomes so embedded in their mind, they don't hear anything else.

For example, the pastor sings the words, "Saved by grace. Not owing to works. Paul says...", and his, or her listeners ignore the clause "works of law".
It doesn't matter how often Paul repeats it, or they quote it.
Romans 3:20
Romans 3:28
Galatians 2:16

All they can hear, are the pastor's words, so that they ignore Paul, and attack James, saying that Paul said it. James needs to 'take a back seat'.
Then, without realizing it, they say works are necessary, because, a Christian can't just sit with their arms folded, and expect to be saved.

It's one of those things we need to realize, is mentioned in scripture, so that we know our words will simply fall on the earth. They won't reach such persons. It is written, so that we understand the reason.

rturner76 said:

So why do we seem to be in disagreement?

Right, grace and faith like I keep saying.

This is where a teacher IS helpful. Do you think he is talking about works of faith or works of the law? Have a think on that. Refrence a few verses in James, he has a lot to say about faith.:

James 2:12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment

What law do you think James is referring to? From my understanding, it's the law of love which is the law of faith. Then in the some chapter;

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

To paraphrase James is basically saying If you have faith, act like it."

Do you disagree with James?

Same Chapter 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Paul himself says:

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you see the difference between works of love and doing works to impress others? If it is done in love it is a good work, if it's done for a reward, it's not a work of love.

So do we need both (faith and grace) or not?

Just above you said, "faith is the means through which grace operates to salvation."

So it's not "grace alone." I'm glad we cleared that up.

Are you talking about works of the law or works of love? Because if it's works of love, one shows how strong their faith is by committing works of love.

They weren't the scribes but they were the ones who decided which of the written works would be set aside as Holy. Do you for some reason feel like they didn't possess the knowledge to separate them? I'm sure you know that the Apostles and their followers wrote many other letters.

Of course, we can study on our own. But we need teachers to make sure we are studying it right. Do you honestly think that the Bereans had no teachers? Wait a minute, wasn't Christ a teacher? Weren't all of the Apostles and their students teachers? I don't understand why someone would think a teacher in unnecessary (unless that's what they were taught).

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Nice post.
I would reference the scriptures, in answer to the question, What law is James referring to?
Galatians 6:2
Yes, indeed. The law of the Christ is love. John 13:34; John 15:12

@CoreyD

Here is one direct contradiction that Paul had with the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel:

Jesus says in Matthew 23:9

"And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

But Paul says in 1 Timothy 5:1

"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father."

This is a direct contradiction against the command of Christ to call no one on earth a father, which is also broken in many Christian traditions.

Laeomis said:

@CoreyD

Here is one direct contradiction that Paul had with the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel:

Jesus says in Matthew 23:9

"And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

But Paul says in 1 Timothy 5:1

"Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father."

This is a direct contradiction against the command of Christ to call no one on earth a father, which is also broken in many Christian traditions.

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"...As if he were your father" is not instruction to call anyone "Father." Christ had not obliterated the existence of natural fathers, nor was Christ abolishing the commandment to honor one's father and mother.

RDKirk said:

"...As if he were your father" is not instruction to call anyone "Father." Christ had not obliterated the existence of natural fathers, nor was Christ abolishing the commandment to honor one's father and mother.

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what about this one.....
1Co 4:15 Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.