American Tract Society & the American Sunday School Union Agree ~

Leaf473 said:

Which statement of mine are you replying to?

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

You don't believe in the scriptural doctrine of soul sleep therefore you believe in the nearly universal belief in the eternal soul which is the lie the devil told Eve that she would not surely die.

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

Then you don't consider yourself a devout Christian as you believe the deception?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

I believe that when a person becomes a Christian - enters the New Covenant - that God writes his laws on their hearts and minds.

If you see it the same way, how can a person be a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

I see. Then in response to your earlier question:

my answer is that I do consider myself a serious, devout Christian.

But the question I asked earlier is based on who the person answering the question considers a serious, devout christian.

Here is the question I asked earlier:

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

You have told me repeatedly that the devil cannot deceive s serious, devout Christian yet you have accepted the lie the devil told Eve in Eden.

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

How is it possible then that not only you but the majority of Christians have accepted this deception? This fact says the devil's power to deceive is far greater than you have thought.

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

I don't believe you've made a good case for that.

Either way, my personal spiritual condition is not what the question is based on.


Do you believe a person can be someone that you would consider a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

I don't believe you've made a good case for that.

Either way, my personal spiritual condition is not what the question is based on.


Do you believe a person can be someone that you would consider a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

So you don't accept Paul's statement that we are mortal and must put on immortality when we are changed at the 2nd coming. And since the Bible says when a man dies his thoughts perish how can anyone be looking down from heaven?

Job 14: 8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

How about Jesus' words?

Luke 11: 1 NOW a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judæa again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

According to Jesus Lazarus was dead yet He referred to his death as sleep. If anyone knows the state of a dead person it is God.

John 20: 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus died Friday afternoon and had not yet been to heaven by Sunday morning.

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

Do you believe a person can be someone that you would consider a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

How can a person's spiritual condition not be affected by believing the devil?

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

Is his agenda towards humanity the same as God's?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

Do you believe a person can be someone that you would consider a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

I think a person's spiritual condition would be affected by believing the devil.


The devil's agenda is not the same as God's, that's correct

Click to expand...

guevaraj said:

Brother, yes! As evidenced in God telling us about Judaism's wrong human Sabbath tradition in the book of Hebrews. The common belief that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to individuals is wrong when Israel asked God not to speak directly to us so that we would not die.

Click to expand...

guevaraj said:

We are told the Holy Spirit has nothing to say to us Himself and everything He hears to tell us He does through the Prophets, so that we don't die as Israel asked of God under Moses.

Click to expand...

guevaraj said:

The reason Jesus puts the law in our hearts is because Jesus is our model Spirit for how to obey the law as a greater revelation than what was inscribed in stone. We are told by Paul in the book of Hebrews that if we do not obey the Sabbath we will "fall" like those that died in the desert. God punished those that died in the desert for their disobedience by not allowing them to enter His Sabbath for 40 years, with Manna in the desert being half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem. In the book of Hebrews, the Sabbath kept as the seventh day of the week is corrected from human tradition by telling us that, during the 40 years they kept the Sabbath with Manna, they kept the wrong Sabbath, which does not enter God's rest by being late by half a day when the Sabbath is earlier in Jerusalem than the seventh day of the week. Joshua did not get the Sabbath wrong in Jerusalem, that Jesus kept as our model "Spirit" to do the same as Jesus. Joshua got the days of the week wrong, which makes their human tradition of the Sabbath wrong everywhere beside Jerusalem.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the days of the week beginning in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

Then by accepting the devil's deceptions such such as thinking we have eternal spirits (souls) we are placing ourselves on his ground and seriously affecting our spiritual condition. He never plays fair. Give him an inch and he takes a mile.

I just realized why my parents lost their relationship with God for so many decades. They unknowingly practiced a healing technique, reflexology, that is based in eastern mysticism, It placed our family under the devil's direct influence. It's what opened the door for Him to attempt to possess me back in the 70s. I've told that story here so you know what I'm talking about. That's how serious all of this is.

My old man also witched for water. He located wells for people using that method. He had no idea he was a tool of the devil when doing so, He thought it was because he had such strong electrical currents running through his body as no wristwatch would last more than a couple of months, He'd take them to jewelers and they would tell him all the steel parts were magnetized and that was why they quit.

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

Do you believe a person can be someone that you would consider a devout, serious Christian for many years and still be ignorant of God's desires concerning the seventh day?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

Do you believe you have received a message from God that has been given only to you?

Click to expand...

guevaraj said:

Brother, no! I think God has prepared the Seventh-day Adventist church to understand this message by having established in our church a clear definition of what the word "evening" means, which is the first part of the next part of understanding "when it is" that evening falls on the first day. Jesus had no need to change the Sabbath earlier because the faithful needed to live near the stand-in Earthly temple-copy where the Sabbath is right in Jerusalem, but nowhere else. Now that Christians are spread throughout the world because of the true temple in heaven, it is necessary to better understand the Sabbath in the new covenant book of Hebrews. Our church has never changed "when it is" that evening takes place since Joshua. Our church still assumes the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when it takes place in the middle of the first day.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

When our prophetess received the above message, the church had understood the first part: "what even is", but not the second part: "when it is". They still assume to this day the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when I know it took place in the middle of the first day. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning or from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day, which did not start on a standard morning because it was an instantaneous change and not a gradual transition from dark to light to make it a standard morning as it is for subsequent days.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 ESV)​

Our church must understand that you cannot have an "evening" without light first, because it is the gradual transition from light to dark. It is not the same from evening-to-morning above as evening-to-evening below, when the former is half the time of the latter. Above, a day is from first light to morning light, just as below a Sabbath is from evening to evening, making the first full day start as it ends from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day where there was no gradual transition from dark to light, but an instantaneous change, unlike the first "evening" in the middle of the first day which made a gradual transition from light to dark.

It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 ESV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

Is your group moving in that direction, a single Sabbath at the same time all around the world starting at sunset in Jerusalem?

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

That's very interesting, thank you for the input

This is what I want to talk about:

Click to expand...

guevaraj said:

Brother, no! Not even my closest friend who is an Adventist believes me. I think it's because no one trusts his ability to understand the Bible on his own without the support of the church.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Click to expand...

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 5:38-39 - New Living Translation

“So my advice is, leave these men alone. Let them go. If they are planning and doing these things merely on their own, it will soon be overthrown. But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God!”

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:

So you just want to ignore all the serious spiritual consequences of coming under the devil's influences to talk about the Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

What good will that do when you admit you don't believe in soul sleep which is one of the devil's first lies told on this planet? Your spiritual condition is compromised and the devil has a huge hold on your life and beliefs.

Click to expand...

Leaf473 said:

No, I don't want to do that. But this thread is about the Sabbath


I don't agree that you have made a good case about soul sleep.

Some months ago I probably would have been eager to follow up on that here on CF. I probably would have suggested moving to General Theology.

But recently I've been more involved in a different social media platform. Send me a PM here and I'll be glad to tell you how to contact me there, if you wish

Peace be with you, my brother!!

Click to expand...

Gary K said:

I'm sorry you think you think mortal means immortal and that Jesus is so ignorant He thinks being dead means being conscious. I've had other people tell me similar things. They actually took the evolutionist position that people who lived 2000 years ago were so dumb they couldn't tell the difference between someone was asleep and a dead person.

Click to expand...