Question on the Eucharist...

Markie Boy · Apr 15, 2024

In John 4:32 He says - I have meat to eat you know not of. Some translate it food to eat.

Bu then in John 4:34 He says - My meat is to do the will of him that sent me.

By Jesus definition His meat is doing God's will.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 15, 2024

Markie Boy said:
John 4:34 He says - My meat is to do the will of him that sent me.

John 4:34 says "my food is to do the will of him who sent me"

hislegacy · Apr 15, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Can we please refrain from debating the doctrine of the real presence on this thread and focus on the question I have raised thanks.

Three months and 62 posts later - I think yo have your answer.

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 17, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Am I right then to conclude then, that this blood and body that the disciples consumed as they partook of the bread and wine, were of His eternal resurrected body and not His pre-resurrection body ?

Or do you consider them one in the same ?

At last supper before his death he said:

Mt 26:26-28 “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mk 14:22-24 “And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, ‘Take; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many’.”

Lk 22:19-20 “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And likewise the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood’.”

He speaks in present tense of that moment. Perhaps extension of his pre-resurrected body then and future generations partake of his resurrected body.

Carl Emerson · Apr 17, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
He speaks in present tense of that moment. Perhaps extension of his pre-resurrected body then and future generations partake of his resurrected body.

Is not a resurrected body essentially timeless ?

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 17, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
At last supper before his death he said:

Mt 26:26-28 “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Mk 14:22-24 “And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, ‘Take; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many’.”

Lk 22:19-20 “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And likewise the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood’.”

He speaks in present tense of that moment. Perhaps extension of his pre-resurrected body then and future generations partake of his resurrected body.

As Lutherans, we believe it his "His" body, both crucified and resurrected. It is Him.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 17, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Is not a resurrected body essentially timeless ?

Yes, and since he has His glorified body; formerly dead and now risen, it is now gloriously eternal, yet bearing the wounds of the crucifiction and we learn in Acts.

Carl Emerson · Apr 17, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Yes, and since he has His glorified body; formerly dead and now risen, it is now gloriously eternal, yet bearing the wounds of the crucifiction and we learn in Acts.

Yes - so the disciples at the last supper partook of His resurrected body and blood before the chronological event of His resurrection.

In this matter then we don't 'look back' when taking the eucharist because we are partaking of eternal elements made available to us at any point in history. It is a 'now' experience.

We are in fact partaking of eternal life, as the life is in the blood.

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 17, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Is not a resurrected body essentially timeless ?

Did it exist before he died?

Carl Emerson · Apr 17, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Did it exist before he died?

Yes, it was a timeless event that atoned for all believers throughout history.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 18, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Did it exist before he died?

No, not until His incarnation. The prophesies regarding the incarnation prove that.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
No, not until His incarnation. The prophesies regarding the incarnation prove that.

Mark, you applauded my post #68 yet disagree with it's content?

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Yes, it was a timeless event that atoned for all believers throughout history.

But it must be dependent on his chronological death was in time....or it doesn't exist.

Jonaitis · Apr 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

Just pondering on a matter that is worthy of discussion.

I understand that a lamb offered as a sacrifice for sin, under the Law, was then consumed.

The partaking in the body and blood of Jesus was first shared with Jesus by the disciples before His sacrificial death on the Cross.

Am I right then to conclude then, that this blood and body that the disciples consumed as they partook of the bread and wine, were of His eternal resurrected body and not His pre-resurrection body ?

Or do you consider them one in the same ?

I think there is a gem of faith building revelation to be had as one ponders on this.

Your thoughts most welcome.

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Can we please refrain from debating the doctrine of the real presence on this thread and focus on the question I have raised thanks.

I believe the point that the New Testament makes is that the Sacrament is reminding the participants of what Jesus' death signifies, rather than the state and condition of his actual body.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
But it must be dependent on his chronological death was in time....or it doesn't exist.

Not correct - Jesus is not beholden to time, unlike us locked in chronology.

Jesus said...

".... Before Abraham was I AM...

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Yes, it was a timeless event that atoned for all believers throughout history.

Explain please; how did I disagree with your post. His humanity is now glorified and eternal; prior to the annunciation, His humanity did not exist. The start point is finite, the result, eternal. His Humanity did not pre-exist creation. His humanity was not begotten from eternity as was His divine nature.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Explain please; how did I disagree with your post. His humanity is now glorified and eternal; prior to the annunciation, His humanity did not exist. The start point is finite, the result, eternal. His Humanity did not pre-exist creation. His humanity was not begotten from eternity as was His divine nature.

Eternal does not have a beginning or an end...

I think the reality of the image of God (Jesus) touched chronology but was not limited by it.

Before Abraham was I AM.

In this way the OT saints were saved by faith through the atonement retroactively.

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 18, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Eternal does not have a beginning or an end...

I think the reality of the image of God (Jesus) touched chronology but was not limited by it.

Before Abraham was I AM.

In this way the OT saints were saved by faith through the atonement retroactively.

Except His humanity did have a beginning; but from that point His dual nature, true God and true man eternally.

The Nicene Creed confesses that Jesus Christ was "begotten by the Father before all worlds"; until He was "incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and was made man". His humanity has a beginning. To believe and say otherwise is unorthodox.

Yes, old Testament Saints were indeed saved by their faith, but not "released" from death until Christ's crucifiction; the sacrifice had to occur. Again, we confess that "He descended into hell". It was at this point that their salvation became real.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
The Nicene Creed confesses that Jesus Christ was "begotten by the Father before all worlds";

There is the point I was trying to make.

He was begotten way before the His earthly birth and indeed the humanity of man came from His image long before His incarnation...

And yes it is through Jesus that salvation came to the OT saints - as their Scripture correctly stated "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. Ps 2:12

MarkRohfrietsch · Apr 19, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
There is the point I was trying to make.

He was begotten way before the His earthly birth and indeed the humanity of man came from His image long before His incarnation...

And yes it is through Jesus that salvation came to the OT saints - as their Scripture correctly stated "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. Ps 2:12

So sorry you continue to miss my point. Yes, he pre-existed His incarnation. His humanity did not.

Again, from Scripture as we confess in the Nicene Creed:

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

Scripture is clear, his Humanity was not eternal, he became man at His conception.

To believe and state otherwise is heterodox.

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