Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Doug Brents]

Rather than regugitate many of the excellent scriptures already posted on this thread I recommend that you take the time to read them for yourself.

I have read the thread as it has been going, but I have seen nothing in the thread that would change the meaning of Paul's message in Athens. God has placed Himself such that He may be clearly seen by all men, so no man has an excuse for not seeking Him and finding Him and honoring Him as Lord. He is as intrinsic in nature as is our sinful nature, so that naturally we all experience God through what is seen, and felt, and heard, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have read the thread as it has been going, but I have seen nothing in the thread that would change the meaning of Paul's message in Athens. God has placed Himself such that He may be clearly seen by all men, so no man has an excuse for not seeking Him and finding Him and honoring Him as Lord. He is as intrinsic in nature as is our sinful nature, so that naturally we all experience God through what is seen, and felt, and heard, etc.

That's fine. You are quite firm in your position and it is exceedingly unlikely that you will be convinced otherwise nor that others not of your persuasion will be convinced of yours. Therefore, do you see any particular reason that this discussion will serve any further purpose?

 

[Aaron112]

Therefore, do you see any particular reason that this discussion will serve any further purpose?

Maybe not for actual participants,
but some new readers, maybe some old ones too,
have said they saw the meaningless arguments, the lack of support for the truth, the going round and round by 'believers'
so after as little as an hour, to as much as a few months or more, watching what goes on, they decided and stated they did not see any point in remaining, and left. To a peaceful place, away from the useless strife and ambiguity and sin permitted to go on and on and on..... like it does throughout the world...

And they , instead of staying, went and either already had or found salvation, or not, but they did not see a way here .

 

[FredVB]

Man naturally doesnt seek after the True God, so that's a choice they dont and cant make ! Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Also man being by nature dead to God, alienated from the life of God [spiritual life] cant make not one spiritual choice because dead spiritually.

Why are they guilty of that? They are, they have no excuse. That can't be true if they can't have any choice.

 

[Aaron112]

Why are they guilty of that? They are, they have no excuse. That can't be true if they can't have any choice.

Can they ever make a choice to do what is good and right ? (according to God Himself).
Thieves, murderers , adulterers, perverts, idolators might all say "we were born this way", and might all remain dead in sin and trespasses.
Do they , any of them, have a choice ?

 

[fhansen]

Can they ever make a choice to do what is good and right ? (according to God Himself).
Thieves, murderers , adulterers, perverts, idolators might all say "we were born this way", and might all remain dead in sin and trespasses.
Do they , any of them, have a choice ?

We're given the choice, by grace that comes knocking on our doors, seeking out our faith and repentance. We can't turn to God unless He first comes to and draws us, and yet we can still refuse to turn, or we can turn back away at any point after opening that door.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why are they guilty of that? They are, they have no excuse. That can't be true if they can't have any choice.

They guilty because they are sinners against God

 

[Brightfame52]

Man naturally doesnt seek after God because we by nature are 100% carnal, even in our morality and religiosity. Scripture declares that the carnal mind is enmity against God, the True God that is Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Notice its enmity against God, not against morality, religion, carnal man approves of those things. So what man needs is a new mind, a change of mind, repentance. Its imperative that man be given repentance which is a change of mind. The word repentance used in the NT Acts 11:18 is
metanoia:

1. a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Without this change of mind, mans carnal mind remains enmity against God !19

 

[AbbaLove]

We're given the choice, by grace that comes knocking on our doors, seeking out our faith and repentance. We can't turn to God unless He first comes to and draws us, and yet we can still refuse to turn, or we can turn back away at any point after opening that door.

I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners and need to repent.” (Luke 5:32)​

Also the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[John Mullally]

Man naturally doesnt seek after God because we by nature are 100% carnal, even in our morality and religiosity. Scripture declares that the carnal mind is enmity against God, the True God that is Rom 8:7

Your premise that we are by nature 100% carnal, undermines your Gnostic argument. How are you born a self professed vacuous carnal being (and now the blind leading the blind), professing anything spiritual to guide the rest of us? Where is your self-confidence coming from? It is that bad starting position (i.e. we are all 100% carnal at enmity with God) that undermines everything you say.

While it’s true that fallen man does not seek after God, God seeks after us, positioning Himself “not far from each one of us,” all for the purpose that mankind “would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him.” (Acts 17:26-28) The apostle Paul taught this in a sermon to evangelize lost, unbelievers. So, clearly, he thought that lost people could seek and find God, based solely on the principle of God positioning Himself near, so that He may be sought and found, and Paul didn’t mention anything to them about first needing a secret regeneration to change their will, nor did he say that God only desired the salvation of a secret society of “the elect” among them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your premise that we are by nature 100% carnal, undermines your Gnostic argument. How are you born a self professed vacuous carnal being (and now the blind leading the blind), professing anything spiritual to guide the rest of us? Where is your self-confidence coming from? Its a bad starting position that undermines everything you say.

While it’s true that fallen man does not seek after God, God seeks after us, positioning Himself “not far from each one of us,” all for the purpose that mankind “would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him.” (Acts 17:26-28) The apostle Paul taught this in a sermon to evangelize lost, unbelievers. So, clearly, he thought that lost people could seek and find God, based solely on the principle of God positioning Himself near, so that He may be sought and found, and Paul didn’t mention anything to them about first needing a secret regeneration to change their will, nor did he say that God only desired the salvation of a secret society of “the elect” among them.

Psalms 14 and 53 as well as Romans 3:1-12 (which quotes these psalms) give us a clear understanding regarding what sorts of people seek after God and what sorts do not.

 

[John Mullally]

Psalms 14 and 53 as well as Romans 3:1-12 (which quotes these psalms) give us a clear understanding regarding what sorts of people seek after God and what sorts do not.

Not sure what you are getting at. I think we agree that some seek after and respond to our God who first sought us. We are able to love Him because He first loved us as demonstrated on the cross where He shed His blood for all men (1 John 2:1-2, 1 1 Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 2:9). The argument from @Brightfame52 is that God predetermines exactly who will seek after Him and thus receive eternal life. That sort of puppetry attributed to God (which slanders God's character) is not found in scripture - it came from the Gnostics. Augustine. Calvin. and other Fatalists. God predestines those who believe on Jesus (which is largely up to us, as we choose who to listen to) to receive eternal life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your premise that we are by nature 100% carnal, undermines your Gnostic argument. How are you born a self professed vacuous carnal being (and now the blind leading the blind), professing anything spiritual to guide the rest of us? Where is your self-confidence coming from? It is that bad starting position (i.e. we are all 100% carnal at enmity with God) that undermines everything you say.

While it’s true that fallen man does not seek after God, God seeks after us, positioning Himself “not far from each one of us,” all for the purpose that mankind “would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him.” (Acts 17:26-28) The apostle Paul taught this in a sermon to evangelize lost, unbelievers. So, clearly, he thought that lost people could seek and find God, based solely on the principle of God positioning Himself near, so that He may be sought and found, and Paul didn’t mention anything to them about first needing a secret regeneration to change their will, nor did he say that God only desired the salvation of a secret society of “the elect” among them.

Man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not sure what you are getting at. I think we agree that some seek after and respond to our God who first sought us. We are able to love Him because He first loved us as demonstrated on the cross where He shed His blood for all men (1 John 2:1-2, 1 1 Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 2:9). The argument from @Brightfame52 is that God predetermines exactly who will seek after Him and thus receive eternal life. That sort of puppetry attributed to God (which slanders God's character) is not found in scripture - it came from the Gnostics. Augustine. Calvin. and other Fatalists. God predestines those who believe on Jesus (which is largely up to us, as we choose who to listen to) to receive eternal life.

The natural man cant believe on Jesus Jn 6:44 1 Cor 2:14 and its up to God in Christ who gets eternal life Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Thats what determines who receives eternal life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not sure what you are getting at. I think we agree that some seek after and respond to our God who first sought us. We are able to love Him because He first loved us as demonstrated on the cross where He shed His blood for all men (1 John 2:1-2, 1 1 Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 2:9). The argument from @Brightfame52 is that God predetermines exactly who will seek after Him and thus receive eternal life. That sort of puppetry attributed to God (which slanders God's character) is not found in scripture - it came from the Gnostics. Augustine. Calvin. and other Fatalists. God predestines those who believe on Jesus (which is largely up to us, as we choose who to listen to) to receive eternal life.

My question was regarding what attributes do people who seek after God have that people who do not seek after God lack? For example, some people attribute seeking after God to moral superiority or to intellectual superiority. What do you think are the conditions or attributes which enable some people to seek after God while others do not?

 

[Brightfame52]

@bbbbbbb

. What do you think are the conditions or attributes which enable some people to seek after God while others do not?

Gods election of grace. The elect by His Grace will be regenerated and renewed Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Its the renewed person that seeks after God

 

[Doug Brents]

My question was regarding what attributes do people who seek after God have that people who do not seek after God lack? For example, some people attribute seeking after God to moral superiority or to intellectual superiority. What do you think are the conditions or attributes which enable some people to seek after God while others do not?

I would say that it is the exact opposite of "moral superiority" or "intellectual superiority". By this, I mean an acknowledgement of our moral and intellectual bankruptcy. If one thinks more highly of himself than he ought, then he will believe that he does not need a savior, and so will not seek Him out. But if one acknowledges that he is completely bankrupt, spiritually dead, and without hope, then he will seek out the savior that can restore him to relationship with God. And then he will throw himself at the feet of the savior and do anything that the savior says in order to receive from Him the salvation that He offers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would say that it is the exact opposite of "moral superiority" or "intellectual superiority". By this, I mean an acknowledgement of our moral and intellectual bankruptcy. If one thinks more highly of himself than he ought, then he will believe that he does not need a savior, and so will not seek Him out. But if one acknowledges that he is completely bankrupt, spiritually dead, and without hope, then he will seek out the savior that can restore him to relationship with God. And then he will throw himself at the feet of the savior and do anything that the savior says in order to receive from Him the salvation that He offers.

Thank you. It is because some people are more genuinely humble than others, that they seek God. Is this a fair summary?

 

[bbbbbbb]

@bbbbbbb



Gods election of grace. The elect by His Grace will be regenerated and renewed Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Its the renewed person that seeks after God

In a sense your position mirrors that of Doug Brents. The problem is how one becomes genuinely humble. Is it a work of God, as you clearly state, or is it because of some innate human inclination?

 

[Doug Brents]

Thank you. It is because some people are more genuinely humble than others, that they seek God. Is this a fair summary?

I would say that is one possible explanation of why some do and some don't seek God. There may be other reasons that I cannot articulate at this time.