Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

[Timtofly]

Actually, one is not an antichrist to deny the relationship between God and Jesus but one who denies both the Father and the son.

The name "Father" is the relationship between God and Jesus.

 

[RandyPNW]

You insert your assumption into the verse. The verse does not say the beast chopped their heads off.

Is the following account an "assumption?"

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them... 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed... 14.9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury... 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus... 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Do you think you are going to hide some place where God will not find you and give you the mark, or avoid chopping your head off?

The beast is universally admired, and the whole world is afraid of him during the peak period of his power, for 3.5 years. But his empire is based in Europe, and is not inclusive of the entire world. So as in the case of all antiChristian dictators, there will likely be a few notable Christian leaders whose heads will be chopped off. This has happened throughout history.

Many others will suffer economic deprivation, if they are located where trade is dependent upon Europe. But this is not the same thing as having your head chopped off.

Obviously, some Christians endure, which indicates they will survive. They will not just submit to execution, but they will survive to the end.

Only those with their head chopped off, are resurrected. God does not resurrect those with the mark.

I don't believe so, no. The martyrs under the Beast's reign are the 1st to be mentioned after Satan is defeated. However, they may just be a representative sample of those who participate in the "1st Resurrection." Qualification to sit on these thrones is not specifically limited to these martyrs.

 

[Timtofly]

Is the following account an "assumption?"

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them... 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed... 14.9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury... 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus... 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

The beast is universally admired, and the whole world is afraid of him during the peak period of his power, for 3.5 years. But his empire is based in Europe, and is not inclusive of the entire world. So as in the case of all antiChristian dictators, there will likely be a few notable Christian leaders whose heads will be chopped off. This has happened throughout history.

Many others will suffer economic deprivation, if they are located where trade is dependent upon Europe. But this is not the same thing as having your head chopped off.

Obviously, some Christians endure, which indicates they will survive. They will not just submit to execution, but they will survive to the end.

I don't believe so, no. The martyrs under the Beast's reign are the 1st to be mentioned after Satan is defeated. However, they may just be a representative sample of those who participate in the "1st Resurrection." Qualification to sit on these thrones is not specifically limited to these martyrs.

According to Revelation 13, one can have the mark, still refuse to worship Satan, and be murdered. That would not be martyrdom if one had the mark. That would just be a physically dead person.

No one is said to be killed by the beasts because they refused to accept the mark. Those refusing to accept the mark had to chop of their head. That is the only way to avoid the mark.

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the martyrdom of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

These souls did both items. They did not worship the beast nor image. They chopped off their heads as their testimony/martyrdom to Christ. They literally gave their life in death to attain eternal life.

Why would the beast want them to gain eternal life?

Not one verse in Revelation 13 says a person was killed for refusing the mark.

Satan is not telling people to either worship him or get your head chopped off so you can live eternally with Jesus Christ. Satan does not want any one to chop off their head, but choose the mark instead. You cannot enjoy Satan's economy nor kingdom if your head is chopped off. Satan would prefer you choose him over Jesus Christ.

The word testimony is the word for martyrdom, not beheaded. They are not martyrs for choosing martyrdom. Being beheaded is the only option to be saved. The choice is between receiving the mark or chopping one's head off. That is their testimony of salvation. That is their martyrdom of salvation. They are not martyrs because they are saved. They are saved because they chopped their heads off. God gives out the mark, because that is the point they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. Satan wants as many as possible to be removed from the Lamb's book of life and receive the mark. The reward is to participate in his economy and empire as a true citizen. But if one refuses to worship Satan, the mark won't save them. They are still killed.

The same is true about the Millennium Kingdom. If one disobeys God, they will be killed and removed from society. Why would Satan not implement the same worship towards himself? Satan is claiming to be God and all the benefit that comes with that title. One thing Satan cannot do is resurrect the dead. This is the time of the Abomination of Desolation. There is no salvation by grace through faith. That has been taken away. Even the 2 witnesses are going around killing people who attempt to harm them. The only act of faith and means of salvation is to chop one's head off.

Ruling and reigning with Christ is not about sitting on a throne and judging people. This is the first generation. They will reign over their families for dozens of generations. Their descendants are who they reign over. They are the Patriarchs and Matriarchs of all their offspring.

That would have been Adam and Eve if they had lived a thousand years in the Garden of Eden. They would have lived and reigned with Jesus a thousand years or even 6,000 years. Up until the point Adam disobeyed God. They would have reigned over hundreds of generations of humans all living in the Garden of Eden.

 

[One God and Father of All]

There’s nothing new about having your head chopped off for not believing as they do.. What’s new is the outrage that has gained hold for actually beheading those who disagree with what “they say”. “We can behead them in other ways” they resolve, justifying themselves. He he.
Only the ones who have the mark imprinted on their foreheads, which indicates the ability to know the truth from a lie, won’t bow to them.
Those are becoming fewer and fewer.

 

[RandyPNW]

According to Revelation 13, one can have the mark, still refuse to worship Satan, and be murdered. That would not be martyrdom if one had the mark. That would just be a physically dead person.
No one is said to be killed by the beasts because they refused to accept the mark. Those refusing to accept the mark had to chop of their head. That is the only way to avoid the mark.
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the martyrdom of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
These souls did both items. They did not worship the beast nor image. They chopped off their heads as their testimony/martyrdom to Christ. They literally gave their life in death to attain eternal life.

Evil men don't make martyrs to give them Eternal Life. They make martyrs because they hate them.

The book of Revelation isn't being as technical as you claim. It isn't saying that these martyrs must have done "both items," not worshipping the Beast and not taking the mark. Both things are the same thing, rejecting participation in the worship of the Beast, which requires accepting the mark of the Beast.

Why would the beast want them to gain eternal life?


Not one verse in Revelation 13 says a person was killed for refusing the mark.

The reason I gave you all of the passages together was to show you that they are all saying the same thing, that Christians resist worshiping the Beast by not accepting his mark. This leads to their martyrdom.

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them... 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed... 14.9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury... 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus... 20.4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

Satan is not telling people to either worship him or get your head chopped off so you can live eternally with Jesus Christ. Satan does not want any one to chop off their head, but choose the mark instead. You cannot enjoy Satan's economy nor kingdom if your head is chopped off. Satan would prefer you choose him over Jesus Christ.

No, Satan and the Beast both want to chop the heads of Christians to dispose of their influence. They want to be worshiped in place of God. That's what the "mark" is all about, obtaining worshipers who participate in the Beast Kingdom.

The word testimony is the word for martyrdom, not beheaded.

We're not doing a study on word origins!

They are not martyrs for choosing martyrdom.

This is an irrational statement. When martyrs choose to die rather than capitulate they are both choosing for martyrdom and becoming martyrs for doing so.

Being beheaded is the only option to be saved. The choice is between receiving the mark or chopping one's head off. That is their testimony of salvation. That is their martyrdom of salvation. They are not martyrs because they are saved.

Sorry, you've lost me....

 

[Timtofly]

The reason I gave you all of the passages together was to show you that they are all saying the same thing, that Christians resist worshiping the Beast by not accepting his mark. This leads to their martyrdom.

That is a reasonable assumption.

It is the wrong presupposition added into God's Word.

When the mark is handed out by God, it is after the Second Coming. After the final harvest gathered by Jesus and the angels. This 42 month period is after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded, and Jesus was made King over all nations as the 7th one world kingdom.

Revelation 13 comes after Revelation 11:15.

There are no Christians on the earth after the 6th Seal. No one becomes a Christian during the Trumpets and Thunders. During the final harvest souls are removed from the earth and placed in the LOF or are waiting on the sea of glass. No one is hiding out somewhere on the earth.

The sea of glass: Revelation 4:6

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:"

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

These people are not hiding out on the earth. They are gathered on this sea of glass having the victory over what is going on down below. But they have a body, and are not standing in judgment, nor waiting to be beheaded.

Those beheaded are judged after the 42 months and after Satan is bound. The beheaded are not waiting on the sea of glass.

Comparing those on the sea of glass to the harvest of Matthew 13 and the judgment of the sheep in Matthew 25, they were already judged and given eternal life, the first resurrection. They were waiting in heaven on this sea of glass way before the 7th Trumpet even sounded. They had the victory over the beast and his image, because they were already redeemed and waiting for the 7th Trumpet to sound.

Those beheaded are the redeemed during the 42 months. But their redemption was in the form of chopping their head off, and then waiting to be judged later after Satan was bound. They were given the first resurrection after Satan was bound. Those waiting on the sea of glass would be those returning on white horses to the battle of Armageddon. The victory already assured.

John never writes about a survivalist group hanging out on the earth somewhere who never physically left their corruptible bodies behind. Not even in Revelation 12.

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

This is the symbolic preservation of Israel still pure without becoming corrupt by the work of world government and Satan. This is in comparison to the harlot that Israel plays as Jerusalem, given to the governmental authority of Satan. But the remnant of faithful Israel are waiting on the sea of glass, redeemed, not hiding out on the earth.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

These would be those beheaded. The only reason that Satan is given 42 months is if God in His foreknowledge knows there will be at least 1 beheaded person. But the moment of their redemption from their dead corruptible flesh is when they chop their head off. That is their testimony of Jesus Christ and in keeping of the commands of God. Especially during a time when this is true: Daniel 9:27

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Even the alter call of redemption is the abominable act of chopping one's head off. There is no sacrifice nor oblation of sin. One cannot accept by faith and continue to live in sin (become a Christian). They have to be removed from this body of flesh. That is the purpose of being beheaded, not that they were martyred for being a Christian. Those still in their physical body are marked by God, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life. The final harvest is about leaving corruption behind, not to see how long one can avoid the mark.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed"

When people read this they conjure up an actual conflict like the Spanish Inquisition or the Reformation where Satan beheads heretics. Then they read:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same authority as the other verse, so instantly it means to many they were all killed. Except they were not dead. They were waiting on Mount Zion with Jesus. Satan did not kill Jesus nor the 144k. The authority was given to Satan by Jesus.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

Satan is the 8th King of the 8th Kingdom. Satan did not kill Jesus to gain the throne. God granted Satan 42 months of authority for the only reason being; some humans would choose to be beheaded instead of follow Satan's authority.

Otherwise Jesus would not give up the throne and the Millennium would start with Satan being bound for a thousand years, and no 42 months of the 8th kingdom would ever happen. There would be no 3rd woe, nor the 7 vials poured out. Not even a battle of Armageddon nor the mark. The harvest would be complete at the 7th Trumpet. Any one left would be killed and placed into Death to await the GWT Judgment.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Therefore, to say “first resurrection “ means that there is a resurrection to follow the first. Which means that those who claim there is only one resurrection is false teaching.

Many people presume that "protos" can only mean "first in order." But that is not the case; protos equally can mean "first in preeminence."

Strong’s Definitions:

πρῶτος prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

More fully discussed here: 78. The "First" Resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

 

[One God and Father of All]

Many people presume that "protos" can only mean "first in order." But that is not the case; protos equally can mean "first in preeminence."

Strong’s Definitions:

πρῶτος prōtos, pro'-tos; contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):—before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

More fully discussed here: 78. The "First" Resurrection of Revelation 20:5-6 https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.
I think the ones “caught up in clouds” include both the living and the dead at Christ‘s coming. The ones who are alive, and the ones in the grave.

There is no “caught up in clouds” for those who are alive in Revelation 20. They are separate events. Just as those who suffer a second death is a separate event from the other two.

 

[Timtofly]

The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.
I think the ones “caught up in clouds” include both the living and the dead at Christ‘s coming. The ones who are alive, and the ones in the grave.

There is no “caught up in clouds” for those who are alive in Revelation 20. They are separate events. Just as those who suffer a second death is a separate event from the other two.

Well the first birth, first death, and first resurrection are all physical. Obviously, unless one has a physical birth, they cannot even exist.

The first birth implies a second birth. But a second resurrection would be out of the LOF, which is the second death.

John was just pointing out in Revelation 20, there will be a physical resurrection for those who are physically dead.

 

[WilliamLhk]

The writer of that article thinks the ones “caught up in clouds” are among those of the “first” resurrection.
I think the ones “caught up in clouds” include both the living and the dead at Christ‘s coming. The ones who are alive, and the ones in the grave.

There is no “caught up in clouds” for those who are alive in Revelation 20. They are separate events. Just as those who suffer a second death is a separate event from the other two.

Agreed; they are two separate events. Both resurrections, and others, are protos resurrections. From the article I cited in my previous post:

" In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff. "

 

[One God and Father of All]

Agreed; they are two separate events. Both resurrections, and others, are protos resurrections. From the article I cited in my previous post:

" In the context of Revelation 20, the Greek word πρωτη primarily means FIRST (FOREMOST) IN PREEMINENCE, NOT ORDER. This word can be used both ways, so context must determine its meaning. Some people presume it can only mean first in order; and therefore, that these souls shall be the first ones to be raised from the dead. This is incorrect. For earlier in Revelation, verse 1:5, we find that Jesus is called “the πρωτοτοκος/first-born of the dead.” Jesus was the first among all men to be resurrected from the dead with an immortalized body: no one else of the dead was immortalized on that same day or before. Others will also have been resurrected from the dead prior to the raising of these Revelation 20:4 saints, including those of the dead who will have been “caught up in clouds” to Jesus long before the Battle of Armageddon; as also will be the killed and quickly-resurrected Two Witnesses. 1 Thes. 4:14-17; Rev. 11:3ff. "

Just as the writer says “first” in resurrection does not refer to order. I could also say that “first born” from the dead does not refer to order either, but to preeminence. He says it does refer to order.

 

[RandyPNW]

That is a reasonable assumption.

Yes, the account in Rev 13-19 is pretty clear. The Beast system requires worship, as well as the mark. Those Christians who resist these things are martyred on occasion. Some are able to avoid martyrdom until the coming of the Lord. I think this takes place in the heart of Europe.

It is the wrong presupposition added into God's Word.

Your opinion noted.

When the mark is handed out by God, it is after the Second Coming.

I don't see that at all. The mark takes place before the 2nd Coming, in my view.

After the final harvest gathered by Jesus and the angels. This 42 month period is after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded, and Jesus was made King over all nations as the 7th one world kingdom.

Again, my view is that the 42 months of the Beast Empire take place immediately before the 2nd Coming and the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 13 comes after Revelation 11:15.

There are no Christians on the earth after the 6th Seal.

There are always going to be Christians left on earth. 1 Thes 4. Those "raptured" are still alive and remaining.

No one becomes a Christian during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The trumpets are just symbols announcing various aspects and activities that take place as the Lord's Return approaches. People can become Christians at any time before Armageddon and also following, I believe.

During the final harvest souls are removed from the earth and placed in the LOF or are waiting on the sea of glass. No one is hiding out somewhere on the earth.

The final harvest is simply Christ coming back for the deceased saints and for the Christians alive and remaining.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

These people are not hiding out on the earth.

Those who successfully resisted Antichrist are portrayed as victorious at the Return of Christ. There is no need to "hide out." They will be glorified and immortalized.

They are gathered on this sea of glass having the victory over what is going on down below. But they have a body, and are not standing in judgment, nor waiting to be beheaded.

Those beheaded are judged after the 42 months and after Satan is bound. The beheaded are not waiting on the sea of glass.

I disagree. The beheaded are on the sea of glass together with all who have successfully resisted the Beast.

Comparing those on the sea of glass to the harvest of Matthew 13 and the judgment of the sheep in Matthew 25, they were already judged and given eternal life, the first resurrection. They were waiting in heaven on this sea of glass way before the 7th Trumpet even sounded. They had the victory over the beast and his image, because they were already redeemed and waiting for the 7th Trumpet to sound.

These are different ways of describing the same thing. Matt 25 speaks of the judgment to take place at Christ's Coming. He will separate out the wicked in Israel so that the nation may be Saved. It is a representation of the final state of the nation Israel--a time when the nations will go through a final period of probation.

Those beheaded are the redeemed during the 42 months.

No, the beheaded are dead during the 42 months of Antichrist's reign.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

This is the symbolic preservation of Israel still pure without becoming corrupt by the work of world government and Satan. This is in comparison to the harlot that Israel plays as Jerusalem, given to the governmental authority of Satan. But the remnant of faithful Israel are waiting on the sea of glass, redeemed, not hiding out on the earth.

The faithful are either dead during the 42 months of Antichrist's reign or resisting/hiding out against his rule. I think the Woman is Israel, who is kept in the land of Israel, symbolically portrayed as a wilderness, as if they are being preserved in Sinai before entering Canaan.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

These would be those beheaded. The only reason that Satan is given 42 months is if God in His foreknowledge knows there will be at least 1 beheaded person. But the moment of their redemption from their dead corruptible flesh is when they chop their head off.

I have no idea what you mean by this?

That is their testimony of Jesus Christ and in keeping of the commands of God. Especially during a time when this is true: Daniel 9:27

Dan 9.27 was fulfilled in 70 AD, in my opinion. The AoD would happen in Jesus' generation, according to Jesus.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Even the alter call of redemption is the abominable act of chopping one's head off. There is no sacrifice nor oblation of sin. One cannot accept by faith and continue to live in sin (become a Christian). They have to be removed from this body of flesh. That is the purpose of being beheaded, not that they were martyred for being a Christian.

They die as martyrs because of their witness to Christ--not to be decontaminated!

Satan is the 8th King of the 8th Kingdom.

I don't believe so. Antichrist is the 8th king after the formation of a 10 nation 7 king Empire.

Satan did not kill Jesus to gain the throne. God granted Satan 42 months of authority for the only reason being; some humans would choose to be beheaded instead of follow Satan's authority.

Satan has always had authority, but it is a limited authority that inexorably leads to his judgment. Neither has Jesus given up his authority except the imposition of final judgment before the time. Satan's limited authority will meet Jesus' authority to finally judge him in the future. It will be a 2 stage process, beginning at the 2nd Coming and ending at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

These are different ways of describing the same thing. Matt 25 speaks of the judgment to take place at Christ's Coming. He will separate out the wicked in Israel so that the nation may be Saved. It is a representation of the final state of the nation Israel--a time when the nations will go through a final period of probation.

Those on the sea of glass are the sheep and wheat after Jesus is on the earth with His angels. They are those on the white horses in Revelation 19. How can they be judged after returning on white horses?

No one is left on the earth other than those killed at Armageddon. That is the whole point of those on white horses. To rule and reign on the earth. They rule over their offspring generation after generation for a thousand years.

I understand that you view things similar to the futurist and dispensational teachings that people keep becoming Christians. Those left of the nations are the ones on the white horses. They are not seperated after Armageddon. They were already judged and waiting on the sea of glass.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Just as the writer says “first” in resurrection does not refer to order. I could also say that “first born” from the dead does not refer to order either, but to preeminence. He says it does refer to order.

This continuing quote from my blog adds more detail, which addresses your point::

" So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24

" Secondarily, those of the pre-Millennial, πρωτη resurrection will also, taken together as a class of people, be first in the sense of preceding everyone to be raised from the dead after the end of the Millennium. All of the immortalized and glorified pre-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death [will have] no power.” Whereas some of the post-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death,” “the lake of fire,” will have power. Others from the Millennium, of the ones having been born during it, will undoubtedly become saints and receive glorifies bodies. "

 

[One God and Father of All]

This continuing quote from my blog adds more detail, which addresses your point::

" So the primary meaning here of πρωτη is that Jesus, along with the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 saints, the Two Witnesses, and the Revelation 20:4 saints, are preeminent in the sense of all together being foremost in status of those who will be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennial reign of Christ. Because in addition to these, non-believers will also be resurrected from the dead prior to the Millennium. But these will arise unto a very non-preeminent “resurrection of condemnation.” John 5:29; Dan. 12:2; Is. 66:24

" Secondarily, those of the pre-Millennial, πρωτη resurrection will also, taken together as a class of people, be first in the sense of preceding everyone to be raised from the dead after the end of the Millennium. All of the immortalized and glorified pre-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death [will have] no power.” Whereas some of the post-Millennial group will be those over whom “the second death,” “the lake of fire,” will have power. Others from the Millennium, of the ones having been born during it, will undoubtedly become saints and receive glorifies bodies. "

When the writer says that “first” resurrection does not refer to order, I would disagree.
And when the writer says that “first” born does refer to order, again I would disagree.

I believe “first” resurrection does refer to order. And that Jesus being “first” born does not refer to order but preeminence.

I agree with what the writer says in the above post. #114.

 

[Jan001]

When you study the details of the rapture in Thessalonians and compare it to the rapture in Corinthians, it appears these scriptures are describing two distinct rapture events for the saints. And if this is true, then what do these two different raptures represent?

In the Bible, similar words and phrases are often used to connect one scripture with another in order to reveal a hidden meaning or prophecy. In other words, scripture interprets scripture; for example, the Word in John 1:1 is revealed in John 1:14. So with this in mind, let us carefully examine the rapture in Thessalonians and Corinthians to see if there are any connected scriptures or stories that will give us deeper insight and understanding for the rapture of the saints.

I use the Scriptures to explain how I understand the "rapture."

I think the Scriptures show us that Jesus comes bodily to earth only two times.

He came to earth the first time bodily as a dependent infant. At the end of time He will come to earth the second time in His resurrected body with all glory and power.


1 Corinthians 15:20-27 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”

After Jesus died on the cross, He released all of the righteous spirits in Hades and they accompanied Him to heaven. Their spirits had attained eternal life with God in heaven. I think this was the first resurrection. These spirits are reigning in heaven right now with Jesus and they will reign with Him until His second appearing at the end of time. This is the "a thousand years" reign. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

The second death has no power concerning them because they are already reigning with Jesus in heaven right now.

After Jesus' second appearing/coming, He will hand over His kingdom to His Father. He puts an end to all rule, and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:24:25 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”


I also think that the spirits of all the righteous people who have died since that first resurrection are also reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will reign with Him until His second coming, which will be at the end of the "a thousand years" time period.


2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he will also deny us;

The righteous persons who are still on earth at His second appearing will be changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible as they rise up to meet Him in the air in order to accompany Him to the Final Judgment. Physical death is destroyed forever at His second coming/appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

The second appearing/coming of Jesus to earth is when the righteous persons who are still living on earth meet Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Satan was bound in hell for this same “a thousand years” at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. This "a thousand years" is symbolic for the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth and His second (final appearing) on earth.

Revelation 20:1-6 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.

I believe Satan is unbound now. He is deceiving the nations presently.

The power of Jesus' death on the cross bound (restricted) Satan's power and mobility for a thousand years.

​

Immediately after Jesus' second appearing will be the public judgment of all people. This judgment is called the white throne judgment and metaphorically the judgment of the sheep and goats. There is only one public judgment and it is at the end of time.

John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Jesus will not come bodily to earth three times.



Jesus came the first time to die on the cross to forgive our sins. He will come a second time accompanied by all the angels and all the newly resurrected saints to meet in the air all the righteous persons who are still left on earth. He will come to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Acts 1:11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

After Jesus returns with His angels and His saints to meet those who are eagerly waiting for Him, the final judgment will begin.

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[g] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.

The throne of His glory is the great white throne.

 

[One God and Father of All]

There will come a time so fearful and deadly, the likes of which have never been seen before since God created Israel as a nation, and beyond that, that if God doesn’t say “enough“ then there will be left not one surviving member of the human race. They will have all killed each other. Even those of their own family. Till no one remains.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

The basis of the Rapture is the 2nd Coming, of the Coming of the Son of Man, which originates in Dan 7. Having a common origin in Scriptures, I seriously doubt there is any substantial evidence for "different Raptures."

The Son of Man comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth, in the face of Antichrist's opposition, who is called in Dan 7 the "Little Horn." Revelation goes to great lengths to describe this, as if to let all of Christianity know, throughout history, that Antichrists will somewhat prevail until the Kingdom of Christ is actually established. The Gospel will succeed, but opposition will temporarily succeed, as well.

When the Son of Man comes, it will be to bring victory to his suffering saints, gathering them into his Kingdom. Paul sees Christ coming back from heaven, just as he left for heaven. And as Christ ascended into heaven to obtain his glorious new body, so he will call up his saints to give them glorious new bodies, as well, so that they may join him in establishing his Kingdom and in regathering his people into their various nations.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus speaks primarily of Israel's regathering, because at that time he was still speaking under the era of Law, where Israel was primarily viewed as God's exclusive people. But not long after the Cross, a great outreach began to convert many pagan nations to Christianity. And so, this great regathering, to take place at Christ's Coming, will regather not just Israel but many fallen nations who have fallen away from Christianity, just as Israel did.

I see no "hidden meanings" in these passages?

The Rapture, or calling up of the saints at Christ's Coming, in 1 Thes 4 is the same as the Coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 and in the Olivet Discourse. So is 1 Cor 15. Both passages focus on Christ's Coming and on the victory of the saints at that time, with particular emphasis on their resurrection and glorification.

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.... 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

All of these passages are saying the same things, based on Dan 7, that the Son of Man is Coming from heaven to deliver his saints, to raise them from the dead and to give them immortality and eternal life with God. This will constitute the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth forever. There is nothing secretive about this, and nothing divergent between one passage and another, in my opinion.

The verse(s) in Thes is describing the means of being raptured. The verse(s) in Cor is describing the transformation from mortal/flesh to immortal/glorification.

The last trump mentioned in the Cor verse(s) is referring to the Jewish tradition at the observance of The Feast/Moed of Trumpets/Rosh HaShannah which occurs at the beginning of their calendar year, the time of harvest.
The last trump speaks of one man who blows a shofar horn, making a series of notes, the last note (the last trump) being sounded at length till the man's lungs can't blow anymore. It is the loudest and longest note. There are videos of it.
That is the 1 Thes 4:16 'trump of God' in connection with the raising of all dead in Christ and an announcing of Jesus-the Bridegroom coming for the b.o.c.-the Bride.

The Second Coming occurs around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. So this is why there cannot be any so called 'post tribulation rapture'. Since that theology erroneously puts two different feasts together (Jesus coming for the Bride to rapture from the Earth + Jesus returning to Earth with all OT & NT saints) but by calendar they happen at two different seasons of the year.

 

[Jan001]

The Second Coming occurs around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. So this is why there cannot be any so called 'post tribulation rapture'. Since that theology erroneously puts two different feasts together (Jesus coming for the Bride to rapture from the Earth + Jesus returning to Earth with all OT & NT saints) but by calendar they happen at two different seasons of the year.

Why do you think that the second coming of Jesus must occur around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles?

I think Scripture shows us that the Jewish feast days are not relevant for New Covenant Christians.

Colossians 2:13-17 When you were dead because of the things you had done wrong and because your body wasn’t circumcised, God made you alive with Christ and forgave all the things you had done wrong. 14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade. 16 So don’t let anyone judge you about eating or drinking or about a festival, a new moon observance, or sabbaths. 17 These religious practices are only a shadow of what was coming—the body that cast the shadow is Christ.

It seems to me that the second coming of Jesus will come suddenly and without any warning, and this is why we must always be prepared.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 We don’t need to write to you about the timing and dates, brothers and sisters. 2 You know very well that the day of the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, “There is peace and security,” at that time sudden destruction will attack them, like labor pains start with a pregnant woman, and they definitely won’t escape. 4 But you aren’t in darkness, brothers and sisters, so the day won’t catch you by surprise like a thief. 5 All of you are children of light and children of the day. We don’t belong to night or darkness.

The following events will occur at the last or final trumpet:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord’s coming definitely won’t go ahead of those who have died. 16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God’s trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise. 17 Then, we who are living and still around will be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air. That way we will always be with the Lord.

John 5:27-29 and he has given him authority to execute judgement, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:

‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’
55 ‘Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?’
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘See, the Lord is coming with tens of thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgement on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’

When Jesus comes again at His second appearing, He will then hand over His kingdom to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Presently, Jesus is reigning in heaven along with His saints, and He will reign there with them until He returns to earth accompanied by them at His second coming. 2 Timothy 2:10-13

Luke 22:69 'But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.’

 

[WilliamLhk]

The basis of the Rapture is the 2nd Coming, of the Coming of the Son of Man, which originates in Dan 7. Having a common origin in Scriptures, I seriously doubt there is any substantial evidence for "different Raptures."

The Son of Man comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth, in the face of Antichrist's opposition, who is called in Dan 7 the "Little Horn." Revelation goes to great lengths to describe this, as if to let all of Christianity know, throughout history, that Antichrists will somewhat prevail until the Kingdom of Christ is actually established. The Gospel will succeed, but opposition will temporarily succeed, as well.

When the Son of Man comes, it will be to bring victory to his suffering saints, gathering them into his Kingdom. Paul sees Christ coming back from heaven, just as he left for heaven. And as Christ ascended into heaven to obtain his glorious new body, so he will call up his saints to give them glorious new bodies, as well, so that they may join him in establishing his Kingdom and in regathering his people into their various nations.

You are conflating the establishment of the earthly Kingdom with the removal of the saints prior to God's wrath beginning on the earth. These two events do not take place simultaneously, but sequentially. Rapture of the bridal family first, then establishment of the earthly Kingdom later on.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus speaks primarily of Israel's regathering,

A common belief, but incorrect. The Olivet Discourse is about the "Parousia" of Christ (verses 3, 27, 37), the same "the Parousia" foretold in the resurrection passages of 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Thes. 4:14, and also in 2 Thes. 1.

The Rapture, or calling up of the saints at Christ's Coming, in 1 Thes 4 is the same as the Coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 and in the Olivet Discourse. So is 1 Cor 15. Both passages focus on Christ's Coming and on the victory of the saints at that time, with particular emphasis on their resurrection and glorification.

1 Thes. 4, the Olivet Discourse, and 1 Cor. 15 do not mention any earthly "victory of the saints at that time."