Planet Fitness bans woman who complained about transgender woman in locker room

[ebia]

If the genitals do not work the person is actually de-sexed, not "another sex".

No, de-sexed is the result of removing ...

Someone who never had isn't de-anything.

The Sexes are the two roles in sexual reproduction; one provides the sperm, the other provides the egg. It would help if the flat-earthers stop denying science.

You've moved from the position you stepped in to support.

His claim was that one's gender is defined by one's genitals.

 

[mmksparbud]

And so, by extension, someone could be born with the wrong genitals.

IF, on the other hand, you insist (as he did) that genetalia absolutely defines sex then someone born without genetalia is not deformed - rather they are another sex. You can't have your cake and eat it. Unless, of course, it never really was a coherent position, just a collection of ad-hoc assertions to suit.

What are you talking about---I have not insisted that genitalia defines sexual identity!!! I said just the opposite--go back and read my posts!!! I said you can be born with the wrong ones and transgenders are only trying to get their bodies to match their minds!! Being born with both sets, or with none, is not another sex, they are still God's children and should be treated as such. When born with both sets, they no longer just randomly choose which sex to surgically remove, they leave them intact until the patient shows which sex they are. Those that are born without any, and have no real identity to which they are, really are neither male or female. Very rare, but does happen---difficult position for them to be in.

 

[ebia]

that is correct

but we are not talking about correcting deformities
we are talking about people mutilating healthy organs because they are mentally confused about what gender they really are

correcting deformities is not a sin
mutilating a healthy body is a sin

If someone's gender were mismatched with their genitalia then it would be a question of correction.

All we have is bald assertions that gender is defined by genitalia so it's not.

 

[Rhamiel]

so many people who do not agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church want to post on a Catholic forum for some reason?

mutilation of the body is a sin against the 5th commandment
do not be a sinner
do not encourage others to sin

 

[ebia]

so many people who do not agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church want to post on a Catholic forum for some reason?

mutilation of the body is a sin against the 5th commandment
do not be a sinner
do not encourage others to sin

Nobody is encouraging anything that they see as mutilation.

Though I would say that if someone with an effectively permanent mental condition can gain long term relief from that by a bit of surgery then I don't have a big problem with that. I don't want to side track the conversation into mental illness, but the idea that physical illness needs relief but mental illness doesn't isn't warranted.

 

[ebia]

What are you talking about---I have not insisted that genitalia defines sexual identity!!!

I wasn't talking about your

 

[Rhamiel]

If someone's gender were mismatched with their genitalia then it would be a question of correction.

All we have is bald assertions that gender is defined by genitalia so it's not.

why do you come to a Catholic forum and argue against Church teaching?

why do you encourage people to mutilate their body instead of getting their mental illness fixed?
if something needs corrected, it is the thinking, not the body
the body is (more or less) healthy
if these people claim something is wrong, if the problem is not physical, why seek to mutilate healthy physical organs

these people do not need to become castrated
they need mental help

if a person told you that they were Napoleon Bonaparte and they just got back from Waterloo
you would not believe them
because their story does not match up with reality
but if a man tells you they are "really" a woman, you are inclined to believe him?

 

[mmksparbud]

that is correct

but we are not talking about correcting deformities
we are talking about people mutilating healthy organs because they are mentally confused about what gender they really are

correcting deformities is not a sin
mutilating a healthy body is a sin

Nobody is mutilating-they are removing what isn't needed--I had 2 perfectly healthy back teeth removed, too many teeth, they were not needed, too hard to clean--the dentist took them out--no mutilation. They are correcting a problem they had no choice in making in the first place!! And it is your contention that it is a mental disorder, when it is a physical deformity, whether the parts are healthy or not is not the question--they are the wrong parts!!!

 

[Rhamiel]

Nobody is encouraging anything that they see as mutilation.

yes
and the Nazis did not see what they did as murder
it was just cleaning up a pest problem

see, when we devalue human life, we are capable of doing monstrous things

do not devalue human life
do not support mutilation of healthy bodies because a person suffers from mental illness

 

[ebia]

why do you come to a Catholic forum and argue against Church teaching?

why do you encourage people to mutilate their body instead of getting their mental illness fixed?

Well, that presupposes that it is a mental illness. That the brain must match the other bits of the body, not the other way around.

But even if we accepted that for a moment. It seems to be generally true that (at least at the moment) we are unable to effectively treat the mental condition.
If all we can do is reduce the suffering with a bit of surgery, I don't see a big problem with that. It wouldn't be ideal, but medical treatment often isn't ideal - often the best we can do is to bring some relief to the sufferer.

but if a man tells you they are "really" a woman, you are inclined to believe him?

it seems to me that being female is at least much more than one's reproductive organs.

 

[mmksparbud]

I apologize--I did not notice this is a Catholic Forum---I was just responding---I will not come on here again!! You are entitled to your own church teachings. I just do not see this question as a denominational teaching so I didn't look to see which forum it was in. Sorry.

 

[Inkfingers]

No, de-sexed is the result of removing ...

Someone who never had isn't de-anything.

Same thing in function.

The Sexes are the providers of sperm and egg. If you can provide neither, you lack the foundation of the Sexes and are desexed.

You've moved from the position you stepped in to support.

His claim was that one's gender is defined by one's genitals.

Your SEX is founded on functional genitals. Getting yourself castrated and having a fake genitalia attached does not change your sex - it strips you of the foundation of sex.

 

[ebia]

yes
and the Nazis did not see what they did as murder
it was just cleaning up a pest problem

see, when we devalue human life, we are capable of doing monstrous things

do not devalue human life
do not support mutilation of healthy bodies because a person suffers from mental illness

We mutilate to relieve other forms of suffering when necessary.
It seems we are left with a view that doesn't see mental illness as real illness.
If that's what it is, which hasn't been established.

As you say, currently Catholic Church comments do back what you say.

I'm prepared to leave it, if you'd prefer, out of acknowledgement for that.

 

[Rhamiel]

Nobody is mutilating-they are removing what isn't needed--I had 2 perfectly healthy back teeth removed, too many teeth, they were not needed, too hard to clean--the dentist took them out--no mutilation. They are correcting a problem they had no choice in making in the first place!! And it is your contention that it is a mental disorder, when it is a physical deformity, whether the parts are healthy or not is not the question--they are the wrong parts!!!

"removing what isn't needed"
well God gave them a healthy body
if they want to be poor stewards of His creation and mutilate a healthy body, that sin is on them

as for removing some teeth because they were hard to clean
there is a utility in that
a reason
it is not from a misguided view of reality
if you do not clean the back teeth properly, they can get cavities and cause a lot of pain, so it makes sense to get them removed
so called "sex change procedures" do not follow logical thought
it is does not turn men into women
run a DNA test if you do not believe me
it makes feminized men

Romans 1:24-27


24Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.

 

[Rhamiel]

also if we look at drug abuse, alcohol abuse, suicide, attempted suicide, depression and other factors
even after getting operated on, Transsexuals are far more likely to suffer from these problems then the general population

that is because the problem was never with their body, it was with their mind
mutilating the body did not alleviate their sense of unease

it is like that with every unhealthy craving, every vice
we think once we get this one thing, we will be happy
but that is not the case

 

[Rhamiel]

when people say stuff like
"I do not feel like this foot really belongs to me.... I want to have it cut off"
we do not just cut off their feet
atleast I hope we do not do that
we recognize that the problem is not with the foot, but with the persons mental stability

 

[ebia]

when people say stuff like
"I do not feel like this foot really belongs to me.... I want to have it cut off"
we do not just cut off their feet
atleast I hope we do not do that
we recognize that the problem is not with the foot, but with the persons mental stability

I'm married to a mental health nurse. On the basis of what she says about real such instances...

Usually such feelings are not all the time, and are to some extent treatable. They also are usually part of a package of mental illness.

If an otherwise mentally fine person persesistantly, chronically, presented with being unable to live with their foot, was suffering a lot because of this, all possibilities of treatment as mental condition had been exhausted without relief, ...

Then it would seem to me to be a flat denial that mental illness is real illness with real suffering to not do the one thing that can relieve the suffering. Just as we might if the foot brought constant extreme pain.

But all that presupposes that it is a mental illness.
Rather than being a discrepancy between two aspects of the physical being; one being outward reproductive characteristics and the other being in the brain.

 

[ebia]

also if we look at drug abuse, alcohol abuse, suicide, attempted suicide, depression and other factors
even after getting operated on, Transsexuals are far more likely to suffer from these problems then the general population

that is because the problem was never with their body, it was with their mind
mutilating the body did not alleviate their sense of unease

it is like that with every unhealthy craving, every vice
we think once we get this one thing, we will be happy
but that is not the case

Given what they are subject to by the wider community, and the anguish they have gone through getting to that point, you'd expect significantly more problems than the general population.

What you would need to look at is whether they have a better quality of life and contentedness after than before. Not whether it's magically perfect after.

 

[StephanieSomer]

My friend, Scripture says what Scripture says...

You are right, context is everything.

Scripture consistently tells us that Transgender is sinful.

At the very LEAST, Scripture clearly states that God does not like it when man acts, dresses, or pretends to be a girl. And anything outside a married man and women sleeping together is sinful.

again, I have Scripture backing me up. I am only repeating what Scripture says...

And, out of curiosity... Did you read the Article in the Link I provided?

God Bless!
-The Current Lowest Servant

Transsexuality has NOTHING to do with sexuality. I have no idea where you got that it does, because it doesn't. You do not have Scripture backing you up. The very fact that you state it that it does demonstrates that you have done exactly as i said before and have gone to the Scripture in an attempt to JUSTIFY your own opinions rather than allowing God to create your opinions.

Scripture doesn't back me up. I don't need it to do so. I got my opinion FROM the Scripture. I back up the Scripture by proclaiming what it DOES say. You are bending Scriptures to your own will.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Serious question: what does it mean for a brain to be male or female?

What I mean is this: there are two ways to discuss a body part as having a sex. The first, and probably most common, is really to me that it is possessed by someone of that sex. So therefore I could speak of my hand or my eye as being a male hand or eye, because I am a man and they belong to me.

The second is to say that the part in question is something which only belongs to a particular sex. So testicles being a male body part, a uterus being a female body part and so on.

Since both men and women have brains, it would seem that to speak of a male or female brain would be to speak of a brain possessed by a man or by a woman. Which isn't unusual, until we start saying that the brain may be of one sex and the rest of the body of the other. What does this mean? I'm not really sure.

And along these lines, could I speak of a man having a female hand, or a woman having a male eye, or similarly with other body parts? If so, what would it mean? If not, how are they distinguished from the case of the brain?

Because factual evidence demonstrates clearly that males and females have brain which are constructed and function differently. Transsexuals' brains have been demonstrated time and time again as being constructed as the sex they claim. And their innate senses are functioning exactly as the opposite sex.