Predestination, Free Will, and a 'Heavenly Language'.

[Mark Quayle]

Ok let me try to be more clear, God does not care if I brush my teeth everyday, He is not causing me to do that. He would very much care if I was working on a cure for cancer and He wanted me to be successful because of the good it would do in the world, under those circumstances He might very well cause me to do some things that I would not have thought about doing myself. Simply God is involved in the BIG picture.

For First Cause (God) to accomplish the big picture, involves one, or a combination, of three things: 1) Intimate involvement and control of every detail 2) Detailed characterization of every first effect created 3) Flying by the seat of his pants, correcting things outside of his control.

Number 3 is heresy. Number 2 is deism. Number 1 is Biblical.

Number 3 is illogical. Number 2 at least admits to cause and effect, but is illogical philosophically, and unBiblical. Number 1 is both logical and Biblical.

Number 3 claims God is not omnipotent, claiming that God is subject to the vagaries of chance, and it admits to the rule of chance, which is logically self-contradictory.

Number 2 ignores that to God, time is immaterial, and ignores several of the logically necessary attributes of God which demand that he is involved in every detail.

Number 1 is right.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

So, Genesis 50:20 doesn't mean, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good..."?

Btw, why did you put "chance" in quotes. Do you mean by chance, or what? How did Joseph go towards Egypt? How does anything happen?

Because the chance was really God's plan. God did not turn Joseph's brothers hearts to sin, he took it into account and amidst disorder God is still in control.

 

[disciple Clint]

For First Cause (God) to accomplish the big picture, involves one, or a combination, of three things: 1) Intimate involvement and control of every detail 2) Detailed characterization of every first effect created 3) Flying by the seat of his pants, correcting things outside of his control.

Number 3 is heresy. Number 2 is deism. Number 1 is Biblical.

Number 3 is illogical. Number 2 at least admits to cause and effect, but is illogical philosophically, and unBiblical. Number 1 is both logical and Biblical.

Number 3 claims God is not omnipotent, claiming that God is subject to the vagaries of chance, and it admits to the rule of chance, which is logically self-contradictory.

Number 2 ignores that to God, time is immaterial, and ignores several of the logically necessary attributes of God which demand that he is involved in every detail.

Number 1 is right.

If you reword number one to be knowledge of every event you will have it right.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because the chance was really God's plan. God did not turn Joseph's brothers hearts to sin, he took it into account and amidst disorder God is still in control.

Remember, logically, there is no such thing as 'chance'. That is our placeholder for 'we don't know'. Chance has no causative ability. (It is self-contradictory to say that something happened by chance).

If God is still in control amidst disorder, then 'disorder' is only so from our point of view. God himself might even refer to it as disorder or chaos, because that is our view of it, and our use of thought, in describing our concept. We see events not nicely lined up, going all sorts of directions, with no apparent guidance or even no apparent cause, no reason, but we know that logically, everything is caused, except first cause.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you reword number one to be knowledge of every event you will have it right.

Yet, if he knew, yet caused (created everything that would result in that effect/event/result) anyway, then 'what he knows' means 'what he causes'.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Remember, logically, there is no such thing as 'chance'. That is our placeholder for 'we don't know'. Chance has no causative ability. (It is self-contradictory to say that something happened by chance).

If God is still in control amidst disorder, then 'disorder' is only so from our point of view. God himself might even refer to it as disorder or chaos, because that is our view of it, and our use of thought, in describing our concept. We see events not nicely lined up, going all sorts of directions, with no apparent guidance or even no apparent cause, no reason, but we know that logically, everything is caused, except first cause.

What I meant was amidst the sinning, God used it and had Joseph sent to Egypt.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I meant was amidst the sinning, God used it and had Joseph sent to Egypt.

But that does not imply that God had not all along planned for things to go precisely as they did. And the fact the verse saying that God intended for this to happen necessarily implies that in fact he had planned it.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But that does not imply that God had not all along planned for things to go precisely as they did. And the fact the verse saying that God intended for this to happen necessarily implies that in fact he had planned it.

I am sure God did not install sin in Lucifer the anointed Cherub, and all his deeds of sin were displeasing to God, contrary to His will. And when Joseph's brothers became envious and angry, they were in agreement with Satan. But God is much greater than Satan so it seems God intended on it being that way, to the last detail.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am sure God did not install sin in Lucifer the anointed Cherub, and all his deeds of sin were displeasing to God, contrary to His will. And when Joseph's brothers became envious and angry, they were in agreement with Satan. But God is much greater than Satan so it seems God intended on it being that way, to the last detail.

I agree God did not install sin in anyone. But he caused that sin be, and that it do what it does. All of that, within his plan, spoken into being.

A note: Satan's works are directed against God and against God's command; and he tries to work against God's plan, but is unable. I can't imagine how frustrated and hateful that makes him. But that too, is God's plan for Satan.

 

[disciple Clint]

Yet, if he knew, yet caused (created everything that would result in that effect/event/result) anyway, then 'what he knows' means 'what he causes'.

foreknowledge does not equate to predestination.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I agree God did not install sin in anyone. But he caused that sin be, and that it do what it does. All of that, within his plan, spoken into being.

A note: Satan's works are directed against God and against God's command; and he tries to work against God's plan, but is unable. I can't imagine how frustrated and hateful that makes him. But that too, is God's plan for Satan.

I think Lucifer was of such a great wisdom and power with intimacy with God's light, that he had power of causation to a lesser extent than God. Maybe that is something God wants, rather than a program.

God selected the best of darkness versus light power plays from an infinite number of possibilities. In which God determined His own actions against anticipations of Satan's causation, will, and witt, with his cohorts and even alternative Satans and cohorts...

God does lose people in eternity, this is not what He wants, He does not plan the loss but accepts our free will.

Satan's strength is his witt, and his heart is unrepentant because God will not force His love on anyone.

I think Satan is the one time, complete, fall, outside of God's will, God knowing there would have to be one if there are to be free willing creations. And Jesus enables a perfect glorified nature over Satan for those who are saved. We will never fall again, despite knowing good from evil, and all else. Perfect glorious freedom.

 

[disciple Clint]

I agree God did not install sin in anyone. But he caused that sin be, and that it do what it does. All of that, within his plan, spoken into being.

A note: Satan's works are directed against God and against God's command; and he tries to work against God's plan, but is unable. I can't imagine how frustrated and hateful that makes him. But that too, is God's plan for Satan.

I agree God did not install sin in anyone. But he caused that sin be, and that it do what it does. All of that, within his plan, spoken into being.

God did not cause or create sin.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

foreknowledge does not equate to predestination.

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

God foreknew who would respond to grace and the solidifies it with predestiny.

God's foreknowledge is infinite and benevolent. It works for the salvation of as many as possible.

 

[disciple Clint]

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

God foreknew who would respond to grace and the solidifies it with predestiny.

God's foreknowledge is infinite and benevolent.

That as you no doubt know is a question of continuing debate. It is God's desire that all should be saved. So lets not start the old debate once again on this site, let people believe what they desire to believe regarding the elect.

 

[Mark Quayle]

foreknowledge does not equate to predestination.

Then you admit to the rule of mere chance, which is logically self-contradictory.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think Lucifer was of such a great wisdom and power with intimacy with God's light, that he had power of causation to a lesser extent than God. Maybe that is something God wants, rather than a program.

God selected the best of darkness versus light power plays from an infinite number of possibilities. In which God determined His own actions against anticipations of Satan's causation, will, and witt, with his cohorts and even alternative Satans and cohorts...

God does lose people in eternity, this is not what He wants, He does not plan the loss but accepts our free will.

Satan's strength is his witt, and his heart is unrepentant because God will not force His love on anyone.

I think Satan is the one time, complete, fall, outside of God's will, God knowing there would have to be one if there are to be free willing creations. And Jesus enables a perfect glorified nature over Satan for those who are saved. We will never fall again, despite knowing good from evil, and all else. Perfect glorious freedom.

We all have power of causation. So does my dog. It means nothing, unless you mean, 'uncaused causation' which is quite a different thing. Think through what that necessarily implies, because it too is logically self-contradictory, unless it is said of God alone, the Creator. "All effects are caused." And all creatures are effects.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God did not cause or create sin.

Mere assertion (again)

 

[disciple Clint]

Then you admit to the rule of mere chance, which is logically self-contradictory.

NO I did not say that and you are not going to put words in my mouth.

 

[disciple Clint]

Mere assertion (again)

No that is a fact that can be verified in the bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

NO I did not say that and you are not going to put words in my mouth.

Ok, explain how God did not cause it, yet chance did not cause it either. It was caused, was it not? Or did it just pop into existence somehow on its own?