Men listening to women teach the Bible!

[Clare73]

... Oh, I don't know about that. If I was the pastor, I might hand the mic to you a few times ... at least.

Well, at least that would keep me under the authority of the pastor.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, at least that would keep me under the authority of the pastor.

Lol! I guess it's a good thing I'm not a pastor ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, at least that would keep me under the authority of the pastor.

You know what would be really cool?

 

[Clare73]

You know what would be really cool?

Could be kinda' fun! The Sister and the Pastor

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Could be kinda' fun! The Sister and the Pastor

Well, that would be cool too. But really, I had something else in mind ...

... like you reading Catherine Clark Kroeger's book with me and you telling me everything you think is wrong with it.

Yeah. THAT would be cool!

 

[Clare73]

Well, that would be cool too. But really, I had something else in mind ...

... like you reading Catherine Clark Kroeger's book with me and you telling me everything you think is wrong with it.

Yeah. THAT would be cool!

Oh, okay. . .don't know anything about her or the book though.

Now you've peaked my curiosity.

What one or two things do you find wrong in it?

What one or two things do you have questions about?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, okay. . .don't know anything about her or the book though.

Now you've peaked my curiosity.

What one or two things do you find wrong in it?

What one or two things do you have questions about?

I don't really find much if anything "wrong" with it. That's why I'm asking you. And besides, you're a woman. Who better to ask than a sister in Christ who is robust in her faith to evaluate whether the book I'm being influenced by has any merit or not?

 

[Clare73]

I don't really find much if anything "wrong" with it. That's why I'm asking you. And besides, you're a woman. Who better to ask than a sister in Christ who is robust in her faith to evaluate whether the book I'm being influenced by has any merit or not?

Okay, so can you give me some examples of what it is you like?

And if you are aware of anything others do not think is on the mark, can you give me examples of those also?

Looking forward to reviewing them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay, so can you give me some examples of what it is you like?

And if you are aware of anything others do not think is on the mark, can you give me examples of those also?

Looking forward to reviewing them.

Sure. In a more succinct fashion, I'll simply pare down the main point of the late Catherine Kroeger's book.

So, here it is. While I'm sure there may be some background points that I might disagree with her on pertaining to various aspects of the Bible, her main point, and one that I think she does a decent job of establishing, is that what Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 has all too often been miscontextualized, misinterpreted and misapplied by Christian men to Christian women and to their potential for ministry, even within the Church itself. And she offers historical and cultural contexts by which we can do better exegesis of that passage to as to more accurately (I'd say "more realistically") understand what Paul was saying.

But don't take my word for it. Here. You can hear her recorded words yourself:

Catherine Clark Kroeger's book, which goes into even more detail than what you hear in the video above, is titled:

I Suffer Not A Woman: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in the Light of Ancient Evidence, (1992), Baker Academic publisher.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't know very many women in life. I have mixed thoughts on this subject because I learn a lot from men and women. It a different way the two think.

While it's unbiblical for women to be placed as heads of a church body, women still have things to add to any biblical conversation. They are saved same as you and can always add insight.

For me personally I gravitate away from female Bible teachers though. I find I learn more from men of God who exposit Scripture... I've not found a female expositer with accurate doctrine yet.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Is this okay?

We ought to know by now that women can be just as gifted by God in preaching and teaching.

 

[Clare73]

Sure. In a more succinct fashion, I'll simply pare down the main point of the late Catherine Kroeger's book.

So, here it is. While I'm sure there may be some background points that I might disagree with her on pertaining to various aspects of the Bible, her main point, and one that I think she does a decent job of establishing, is that what Paul said in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 has all too often been miscontextualized, misinterpreted and misapplied by Christian men to Christian women and to their potential for ministry, even within the Church itself. And she offers historical and cultural contexts by which we can do better exegesis of that passage to as to more accurately (I'd say "more realistically") understand what Paul was saying.

But don't take my word for it. Here. You can hear her recorded words yourself:

Catherine Clark Kroeger's book, which goes into even more detail than what you hear in the video above, is titled:

I Suffer Not A Woman: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in the Light of Ancient Evidence, (1992), Baker Academic publisher.

Well, regardless of the video, the issue in 1 Tim 2:11-15 is not, as is amply demonstrated in the NT, (the straw man of) women in Christian ministry, it is women in the role of pastor or teacher in the assembly.

Now don't hold it against me because it took me 30 seconds to see her incorrect premise regarding the text of 1 Tim 2:11-15; i.e.,
the text is based in the Greek mentality of the time.
And of course, her premise being incorrect, her conclusion is incorrect, regardless of the argument in between.

So. . .first of all, Paul was a Jew, with a Jewish mentality.
Secondly, Paul clearly grounds his teaching, not in Greek mentality but in God's creation order:

"For man was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (1 Tim 2:13-14).

So the issue here is: Is 1 Tim 2:12-14 the mind of God, or the first-century mind of the Greek?

While Bible 101 is: Scripture is the mind of God---breathed (theoneustos, 2 Tim 3:16) out from God.

That being the case, her understanding is contra-NT word of God.

1 Tim 2:11-15 does not keep women out of Christian ministry (straw man),
it simply keeps them out of the role of pastor and teacher in the assembly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, regardless of the video, the issue in 1 Tim 2:11-15 is not, as is amply demonstrated in the NT, (the straw man of) women in Christian ministry, it is women in the role of pastor or teacher in the assembly.

Now don't hold it against me because it took me 30 seconds to see her incorrect premise regarding the text of 1 Tim 2:11-15; i.e.,
the text is based in the Greek mentality of the time.
And of course, her premise being incorrect, her conclusion is incorrect, regardless of the argument in between.

So. . .first of all, Paul was a Jew, with a Jewish mentality.
Secondly, Paul clearly grounds his teaching, not in Greek mentality but in God's creation order:

"For man was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (1 Tim 2:13-14).

So the issue here is: Is 1 Tim 2:12-14 the mind of God, or the first-century mind of the Greek?

While Bible 101 is: Scripture is the mind of God---breathed (theoneustos, 2 Tim 3:16) out from God.

That being the case, her understanding is contra-NT word of God.

1 Tim 2:11-15 does not keep women out of Christian ministry (straw man),
it simply keeps them out of the role of pastor and teacher in the assembly.

Actually, the quip about women in Christian ministry was MY summary of a general problem I've seen at some churches. It's not exactly what Mrs. Kroeger was saying. More specifically, I said she was addressing how some Christian men see women's "potential for ministry" which is just a very, very general allusion to the various problems. You kind of misread what I said and went literal with it. But that's ok.

Did you by chance actually watch any of the video, Clare? If not, then how do you know exactly what Mrs. Kroeger has said and in context?

 

[ARBITER01]

Nice discussion.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

All these positions are ministries/offices from our Lord. I highlighted the two that I think we should see women in churches today. The OT already had prophetesses before, so that position is a shoe in for women nowadays, and I think evangelists would be a great position GOD would place women in, and has before.

I say this to conform to what Paul wrote to Timothy,...

1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;

I don't count the section in 1 Corinthians 14 as I think it is a gloss that made it into the text real early on that shouldn't be there.

 

[Clare73]

Actually, the quip about women in Christian ministry was MY summary of a general problem I've seen at some churches. It's not exactly what Mrs. Kroeger was saying.

Did you by chance actually watch any of the video, Clare? If not, then how do you know exactly what Mrs. Kroeger has said and in context?

I did watch, but kind of sketchily when it got to the pictures near the end.
It was about men and women "coming together" and being equal.
Yes, it's an historical fact that Christianity elevated the place of the woman, which 1 Co 10:11, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, etc. do not alter.
It's a matter of roles, not a matter of inequality.

I missed, if there were one, her conclusion regarding 1 Tim 2:11-15.

I guess I missed her handling of the Scripture requiring women to have a sign (veil) of authority (husband) on their heads (1 Co 10:11).

Likewise missed her handling of 1 Tim 2:11-15 where the principle of the authority of the husband is based in God's creation order.

Same for Eph 5:22-24, where wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, that as the church submits to Christ, so also wives are to submit to their husbands in everything.

Could you summarize for me what you think her point is?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I did watch, but kind of sketchily when it got to the pictures near the end.
It was about men and women "coming together" and being equal.
Yes, it's an historical fact that Christianity elevated the place of the woman, which 1 Co 10:11, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, etc. do not alter.
It's a matter of roles, not a matter of inequality.

I missed, if there were one, her conclusion regarding 1 Tim 2:11-15.

I guess I missed her handling of Scripture requiring women to have a sign (veil) of authority (husband) on their heads (1 Co 10:11).

Likewise missed her handling of 1 Tim 2:11-15 where the principle the authority of the husband is based in God's creation order.

Same for Eph 5:22-24, where wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, that as the church submits to Christ, so also wives are to submit to their husbands in everything.

Could you summarize for me what you think her point is?

The ACTUAL, main point she was making is that she thinks (and I quite agree), that Paul was addressing with his Jewish theological outlook (in Christ) the comparatively inverted thinking of the Greek churches.

So, we today end up hyper-inflanting the inferences we make from the text pertaining to women and their "place," thinking that Paul was simply addressing all women everywhere, when in fact he was addressing specifically the eccentricities of the Greek women who live in places like Ephesus or Corinth. They were kind of 'wild' cities. Think "Women of Las Vegas."

That above is what Kroeger is addressing. Why? Because when most of us read Paul today, we often apply sloppy hermeneutics and all too easily misunderstand the cultural context to which Paul was writing. Some folks today, (ie.. some men in some churches) try their best to make "submission to men" mean something it doesn't, especially when Christ is in the middle of the overall meaning.

You're not one of those women, Clare. You're spiritually composed and more than willing to follow where and how the Lord leads.

P.S. Catherine Kroeger also led an organization that addresses the terrible issue of Domestic Violence.

 

[Clare73]

The ACTUAL, main point she was making is that she thinks (and I quite agree), that Paul was addressing with his Jewish theological outlook (in Christ) the comparatively inverted thinking of the Greek churches.

So, we today end up hyper-inflanting the inferences we make from the text pertaining to women and their "place," thinking that Paul was simply addressing all women everywhere, when in fact he was addressing specifically the eccentricities of the Greek women who live in places like Ephesus or Corinth. They were kind of 'wild' cities. Think "Women of Las Vegas."

That above is what Kroeger is addressing. Why? Because when most of us read Paul today, we often apply sloppy hermeneutics and all too easily misunderstand the cultural context to which Paul was writing. Some folks today, (ie.. some men in some churches) try their best to make "submission to men" mean something it doesn't, especially when Christ is in the middle of the overall meaning.

You're not one of those women, Clare. You're spiritually composed and more than willing to follow where and how the Lord leads.

P.S. Catherine Kroeger also led an organization that addresses the terrible issue of Domestic Violence.

Thanks.

However, you don't think that the effort and research put into Kroeger's fleshing out of first century Greek culture would be better spent in a good "fleshing out" of all the Scriptures relating to "the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body," or "husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. . .in the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church. . .however each one is to love his wife as he loves himself," (Eph 5:22-29)?

I'm thinkin' it is not wise to use man's rationale to overcome Biblical misunderstanding. That sets up man's reasoning as the measure of God's truth.
I'm thinkin' all Biblical misunderstanding should be overcome by continually addressing it through presentations of its correct understanding.

No?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks.

However, you don't think that the effort and research put into Kroeger's fleshing out of first century Greek culture would be better spent in a good "fleshing out" of all the Scriptures relating to "the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body," or "husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. . .in the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church. . .however each one is to love his wife as he loves himself," (Eph 5:22-29)?

I don't think it is wise to use man's rationale to overcome Biblical misunderstanding. That sets up man's reasoning as the measure of God's truth.
I think all Biblical misunderstanding is to be overcome by continually addressing it in thorough presentations of its correct understanding.

And what is the correct "method" by which to reach what you're thinking is the "correct understanding"?

 

[Clare73]

And what is the correct "method" by which to reach what you're thinking is the "correct understanding"?

We're talking about the church here, not society.

Correct understanding is in the light of and continual emphasis on such Scriptures as (Eph 5:22-29), which both educate to and require genuine love, which moderates abuse.
I don't think exposition of the Greek mind of the first century will moderate Christian abuse better than the Scriptures, such as Eph 5:22-29, frequently exposited, where the Holy Spirit can convict of abuse. And by "abuse" I do not mean criminal abuse. That is a whole other issue.

No?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We're talking about the church here, not society.

Correct understanding is in the light of and continual emphasis on such Scriptures as (Eph 5:22-29), which both educate to and require genuine love, which moderates abuse.
I don't think exposition of the Greek mind of the first century will moderate Christian abuse better than the Scriptures, such as Eph 5:22-29, frequently exposited, where the Holy Spirit can convict of abuse.

No?

No! And that's all I'll say because this is the "conservative" forum section and I don't want to step on toes ... especially if I, or the sources of MY position, are readily misunderstood and dismissed.

But, have a blessed Sunday, Clare!