Men listening to women teach the Bible!

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not for me. I can't imagine many men who would follow a woman.
Especially as the practice contradicts scripture.

it is interesting to note that without women most missionary societies and organisations would go belly up, and without female ministry, many Evangelical and Episcopal churches would have to close down through lack of personnel to run them. Also, women have a far different role in our modern society than in First Century society. It was a cultural norm for women to be in the background and have no functional involvement in politics of ministry. Yet there are examples in Scripture where women had a significant role. Also there are many cultural norms described in the Bible which are foreign to us today. Therefore, the notion that women have no role in ministry according to Scripture is taking a very simplistic view and ignores the massive changes in culture concerning women in society.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sad but true...

I think that female ministry is an integral part of our modern church. I think it is a necessary part of it because it brings a diversity that in many cases makes the Gospel alive. Actually, churches in the First Century were home churches where numbers were around 12-15 people, with every one equal - no paid clergy. There was a leader who ensured that everything was done decently and in order. Church buildings came about in the Third Century, instituted by the state. This means that in the home churches. women and men were mixed and according to 1 Corinthians 14, each had a hymn, a doctrine, a revelation, a psalm, a tongue and interpretation. This meant that women took as much part in those home church meetings as the men. Paul's instruction about women keeping silent in the Corinthian church came about because married women were interrupting meetings with loud questions and criticisms and speaking in tongues without interpretation. What this meant was that Corinthian church meetings were not run decently and in order, and so putting controls on loud disruptive married women were just one issue among many in that church. It didn't mean that all women should not take part in the fellowship and edification of the members.

 

[jdcastro1972]

Then what about the scripture which says women should not preach in church because of the created order, nothing to do with the "conditions at the time". 1 Tim 2 v 11 - 14.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then what about the scripture which says women should not preach in church because of the created order, nothing to do with the "conditions at the time". 1 Tim 2 v 11 - 14.

A woman can freely share a doctrine or revelation in an informal home group meeting (which was the First Century church) and not usurp authority over the make members of the group. It was only when the state imposed having church meetings in special buildings, introduced a clergy, and gave authority to bishops to run these formalised organisations, that women were put back into a subservient role and made to comply with the cultural norms of the secular society of the time.

The background to 1 Tim 2:11-14 was that there were disruptive women in the Ephesian church who were trying to dominate and because of Timothy's comparative youth, he might have been intimidated by them. Hence Paul's instruction and encouragement to take control and deal with these women.

Note that Timothy was appointed as bishop over the Ephesian churches. These were a number of home fellowships. He did not have jurisdiction outside of those fellowship groups. Therefore in the absence of any instruction from Paul to the other churches, the issue of women taking part in meetings was not sufficiently significant for Paul to issue any instruction to them concerning women's role.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It seems that emerging churches in such a pagan culture had to combat a strong 'priestess' spirit that prevailed in society.

Some such women were causing havoc and Paul had to bring strong legislation to curb the problem.

At the same time Elders had to be male.

Levite priests were all male.

So it seems God wove into the male psyche the ability to lead and carry the responsibility to feed His sheep.

Peter was asked to do this - not any of the prominent women among the first disciples.

We seem to buck against what God chooses and insist on correcting Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It seems that emerging churches in such a pagan culture had to combat a strong 'priestess' spirit that prevailed in society.

Some such women were causing havoc and Paul had to bring strong legislation to curb the problem.

At the same time Elders had to be male.

Levite priests were all male.

So it seems God wove into the male psyche the ability to lead and carry the responsibility to feed His sheep.

Peter was asked to do this - not any of the prominent women among the first disciples.

We seem to buck against what God chooses and insist on correcting Him.

Of course it comes down to deciding which sections of the Bible are descriptive and which are prescriptive.

It is interesting that in my Union church which is mainly female in its membership, when the male minister resigned and they were depending on visiting preachers, when I joined as the sole male at the time, the ladies looked to me for spiritual and administrative leadership. It is something that happened naturally. So when on a recent Sunday the visiting preacher didn't turn up, the ladies said to me, "You'll have to put your preaching hat on." So it seems to me that women naturally look to the males for leadership and seem to be more comfortable with it that way, without it being imposed on them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Of course it comes down to deciding which sections of the Bible are descriptive and which are prescriptive.

It is interesting that in my Union church which is mainly female in its membership, when the male minister resigned and they were depending on visiting preachers, when I joined as the sole male at the time, the ladies looked to me for spiritual and administrative leadership. It is something that happened naturally. So when on a recent Sunday the visiting preacher didn't turn up, the ladies said to me, "You'll have to put your preaching hat on." So it seems to me that women naturally look to the males for leadership and seem to be more comfortable with it that way, without it being imposed on them.

Right on target... Back in the day at Spreydon at the hight of the surge in church growth there was a lack of mature male leaders so the ladies were asked about filling leadership positions - they went to prayer about it and unanimously agreed to turn the offer down.

 

[DragonFox91]

That is very interesting & helpful Watchman & Carl.

I really, really want to believe it’s okay in a complementarian, man-is-still-the-head role & is there to guide the women.

But I’ve seen one church destroyed by hiring a woman pastor, I believe I’m seeing it happen to another one. She’s not the head pastor, & the head pastor is very good, so I’m trying to stay hopeful, that God can keep the church on track, but I see the cracks & it scares me. It really does terrify me. .Pray for this church.

 

[Aussie Pete]

That is very interesting & helpful Watchman & Carl.

I really, really want to believe it’s okay in a complementarian, man-is-still-the-head role & is there to guide the women.

But I’ve seen one church destroyed by hiring a woman pastor, I believe I’m seeing it happen to another one. She’s not the head pastor, & the head pastor is very good, so I’m trying to stay hopeful, that God can keep the church on track, but I see the cracks & it scares me. It really does terrify me. .Pray for this church.

I know what you mean and I won't attend a church with a woman "pastor". However, a whole lot of churches are being destroyed by male pastors also. I am mystified by the concept that a pastor's wife is automatically a pastor also. Woman are encouraged to be teachers, especially of other women. However, God's authority structure in the church precludes women.

The role of pastor is overstated anyway. The word pastor is used twice in the NT. Elders, teachers, prophets and apostles are mentioned more often.

 

[The Liturgist]

I know what you mean and I won't attend a church with a woman "pastor". However, a whole lot of churches are being destroyed by male pastors also. I am mystified by the concept that a pastor's wife is automatically a pastor also. Woman are encouraged to be teachers, especially of other women. However, God's authority structure in the church precludes women.

The role of pastor is overstated anyway. The word pastor is used twice in the NT. Elders, teachers, prophets and apostles are mentioned more often.

Strictly speaking the term pastor was used by the early church primarily in reference to episcopi - superintendents, or bishops as we call them in English, or elders, which is to say, presbyters, or priests, as we call them in English.. And the words presbyteros and episcopi are quite common in the original Greek of the NT. So a pastor is basically the primary giver of pastoral care, whether an elder, or priest (presbyteros) or a bishop / superintendent (episcopos). A deacon on the other hand is a minister but not a pastor as it is not the deacon’s job to provide primary pastoral care, rather, the historical function of deacons is as assistant ministers of the Eucharist, assisting in serving it, for example, by taking it to those too ill to attend the church in antiquity, or assisting in its ministration at present, and also reading the Gospel (if a deacon is present, the deacon should read the Gospel, otherwise it is the job for the celebrant whether that is a priest, bishop, or for reader services, a member of the laity who is conducting the service, who I should add should not preach unless licensed to do so, but should otherwise limit himself to reading the appointed scripture according to the lectionary since he is not ordained to preach or celebrate the Eucharist). That said, in an emergency, any Christian can perform a baptism. This makes baptism somewhat unique among the Biblical sacraments in that according to the unanimous concord of traditional Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox ecclesiastical tradition, it is the only one where ordained clergy are not required.

Of course people of some radical evangelical groups will say clergy are not required, but such a bold statement is inconsistent with the New Testament, which outlines clear roles for the epikopoi, presbyter and deacon (although admittedly the roles for episkopi and presbyteri are undifferentiated in the NT, thus I cannot fault churches who do not have bishops on purely scriptural grounds, but I will say there is no historic evidence of Presbyterianism in the Early Church, only Episcopal polity and before that and a sort of Congregational-Episcopal polity on a small scale in cities that only had one church.

 

[YorkieGal]

My understanding of Scripture, is that women should not be preaching. The Bible does not have caveats for modern thinking or societies and I have read this today:-

1 Peter 1:25​

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Women who deny this are denying the Word of God in favor of their own desires, which is a shame, but I pray for all who fall to worldly behaviors. I'm guilty of this, too, I'm sure and probably more often than I'm aware. Society has a profoundly negative view of Christianity and worldly thoughts infiltrate us, daily. It is hard to combat our desires when they contradict the word of God which is why it's so important to talk to other Christians who have not been swayed by it and can put us back on course.

 

[Clare73]

My understanding of Scripture, is that women should not be preaching. The Bible does not have caveats for modern thinking or societies and I have read this today:-

1 Peter 1:25​

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Women who deny this are denying the Word of God in favor of their own desires, which is a shame, but I pray for all who fall to worldly behaviors. I'm guilty of this, too, I'm sure and probably more often than I'm aware. Society has a profoundly negative view of Christianity and worldly thoughts infiltrate us, daily. It is hard to combat our desires when they contradict the word of God which is why it's so important to talk to other Christians who have not been swayed by it and can put us back on course.

Women are not allowed to have authority (pastor, teacher) over men in the assembly.
Men are allowed to learn from women apart from the assembly.

 

[RileyG]

Women are not allowed to have authority (pastor, teacher) over men in the assembly.
Men are allowed to learn from women apart from the assembly.

agreed

 

[Wings like Eagles]

I am mystified by the concept that a pastor's wife is automatically a pastor also.

Seeing this more and more and its like things that make you go hmmm. I would not go to a church that has a female pastor myself.

Now wifee loves Joyce Meyer and has all her books, but I do not see her as a pastor, in fact she is a member of Dream City Church down the road here. I would be interested in what others think of her and Beth Moore is another I just thought of.
@Clare73 might have answered my question.

 

[RileyG]

Seeing this more and more and its like things that make you go hmmm. I would not go to a church that has a female pastor myself.

Now wifee loves Joyce Meyer and has all her books, but I do not see her as a pastor, in fact she is a member of Dream City Church down the road here. I would be interested in what others think of her and Beth Moore is another I just thought of.
@Clare73 might have answered my question.

Interesting you mention Beth Moore. She is part of the Anglican Church in North America, which broke away from the Episcopal Church and Anglican Communion in the 2000s. the ACNA (depending on the diocese) ordains women as priests but not as bishops.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Seeing this more and more and its like things that make you go hmmm. I would not go to a church that has a female pastor myself.

Now wifee loves Joyce Meyer and has all her books, but I do not see her as a pastor, in fact she is a member of Dream City Church down the road here. I would be interested in what others think of her and Beth Moore is another I just thought of.
@Clare73 might have answered my question.

Joyce Meyer never claims to be a pastor. She does say that she is a teacher. Beth Moore........... I do not like to criticise people who have no ability to respond to my statements. There are a number of "superstar" leaders that leave me cold. I'll say no more.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Women are not allowed to have authority (pastor, teacher) over men in the assembly.
Men are allowed to learn from women apart from the assembly.

Oh, goodness, Clare! If I was at church, I'd let you lead a bible class. ... I might not agree with everything you say, but I'd let you lead it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Is this okay?

Yeah actually, sometimes it is. And until someone can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that Catherine Clark Kroeger was a complete heretic on this subject, I'm going to stick with at least a few of her answers on it.

 

[Clare73]

Oh, goodness, Clare! If I was at church, I'd let you lead a bible class. ... I might not agree with everything you say, but I'd let you lead it.

As long as I stayed out of the pulpit in the assembly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As long as I stayed out of the pulpit in the assembly.

... Oh, I don't know about that. If I was the pastor, I might hand the mic to you a few times ... at least.