Lying on the forum

[Ophiolite]

Psychologists tell us that the practice of lying is universal (or nearly so) amongst humans. They also tell us this practice begins at a very young age. Parents with toddlers, or with long memories of having had toddlers, may well be able to relate to that. However, the object of this thread is not to debate the truth of these assertions. For the purposes of this discussion I would like you to take these as true. I wish to discuss whether the practice of lying differs between participation in forums such as this and how it is practiced in "real life".

In the real world I periodically lie. I do not know to what extent my lying compares with human norms. Do I lie more frequently, or tell much bigger whoppers than the average human? I don't know. I like to think that my lying is less intensive than average, but I would like to think that wouldn't I? (I reviewed my interactions yesterday and the closest I can come to a lie was in omitting to truthfully tell a high pressure salesman that I was not making a decision today because I did not entirely trust what he was telling me.)

And finally I get to the point. I have, as far as I am able to recall, despite telling lies in the real world from time to time I have never told a lie on this forum, or on any other forum several of which I was active on for over a decade and a half. I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere. I have some thoughts, but I would welcome suggestions as to what you think might be the cause. Also, if you feel comfortable doing so, comment on whether you have had similar experiences. And if any of you can identify an instance in any of my posts where I demonstrably lied that would be helpful, as it would remove the anomalous contrast.

 

[BeyondET]

Why isn't this real life?

 

[Larniavc]

I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere.

Your word is one of the only things that you can be judged on when what you say is the only avenue of knowledge about you the reader has.

If you get caught in a lie nobody will trust you or feel inclined to engage with you on a constructive level.

 

[Ophiolite]

Your word is one of the only things that you can be judged on when what you say is the only avenue of knowledge about you the reader has.

If you get caught in a lie nobody will trust you or feel inclined to engage with you on a constructive level.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that, however while I enjoy much of my time on forums it would have minimal impact on my quality of life if I could no longer participate here, whereas back in the real world being caught in a lie could have very serious consequences. That should make it more likely that I would lie here, yet the reverse is true. But thank you for the suggestion.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that, however while I enjoy much of my time on forums it would have minimal impact on my quality of life if I could no longer participate here, whereas back in the real world being caught in a lie could have very serious consequences. That should make it more likely that I would lie here, yet the reverse is true. But thank you for the suggestion.

How do you know you don’t lie here?

 

[Ophiolite]

How do you know you don’t lie here?

A lie is a deliberate, conscious act of deceit. I may have made statements that are incorrect, but have done so with the understanding that they were correct. Other might find some statements are at odds with their understandings, that would not mean that either party was lying, just that they had different views. For example, I think that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, other members might think it is around 6,000 years old. If we make statements to that effect they are not lies, merely different understandings. I would need to state I thought the Earth was, for example, 20,000 years old to be telling a lie, since I think it 4.5 by +/-.

 

[Paidiske]

I would, I think, say something similar about not having lied on a forum. I wonder whether it's partly because on a forum we can choose our interaction. Don't like a thread? Don't post. Don't like the replies you get? Click away. Don't want to share some unpalatable truth? Decline to share it; nobody can make you. Decide that so-and-so is beyond unbearable? Ignore button. In real life, we don't have that luxury all the time. We are thrown together with people who pose us various levels of threat and discomfort, and we have to put up with them, for work reasons, for family reasons, for social reasons. Sometimes a small dishonesty provides some lubricant to what might otherwise be very high friction encounters.

 

[One God and Father of All]

A lie is a deliberate, conscious act of deceit. I may have made statements that are incorrect, but have done so with the understanding that they were correct. Other might find some statements are at odds with their understandings, that would not mean that either party was lying, just that they had different views. For example, I think that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, other members might think it is around 6,000 years old. If we make statements to that effect they are not lies, merely different understandings. I would need to state I thought the Earth was, for example, 20,000 years old to be telling a lie, since I think it 4.5 by +/-.

Is a lie different than a falsehood?

I mean, is it not a lie to speak a falsehood?

 

[Nithavela]

So.. you want us to tell you why you don't tell lies on a forum? I'm confused.

 

[tdidymas]

Psychologists tell us that the practice of lying is universal (or nearly so) amongst humans. They also tell us this practice begins at a very young age. Parents with toddlers, or with long memories of having had toddlers, may well be able to relate to that. However, the object of this thread is not to debate the truth of these assertions. For the purposes of this discussion I would like you to take these as true. I wish to discuss whether the practice of lying differs between participation in forums such as this and how it is practiced in "real life".

In the real world I periodically lie. I do not know to what extent my lying compares with human norms. Do I lie more frequently, or tell much bigger whoppers than the average human? I don't know. I like to think that my lying is less intensive than average, but I would like to think that wouldn't I? (I reviewed my interactions yesterday and the closest I can come to a lie was in omitting to truthfully tell a high pressure salesman that I was not making a decision today because I did not entirely trust what he was telling me.)

And finally I get to the point. I have, as far as I am able to recall, despite telling lies in the real world from time to time I have never told a lie on this forum, or on any other forum several of which I was active on for over a decade and a half. I find this odd and am uncertain as to what compels me to be scrupulously truthful online, but not elsewhere. I have some thoughts, but I would welcome suggestions as to what you think might be the cause. Also, if you feel comfortable doing so, comment on whether you have had similar experiences. And if any of you can identify an instance in any of my posts where I demonstrably lied that would be helpful, as it would remove the anomalous contrast.

IMO there are acceptable lies and unacceptable ones. If parents lie to their children in order to "save" them from the brutal truth (about someone's death or a scandal or such), that seems to be acceptable to most people, and is a debatable subject. We lie regularly when someone says "how are you" as a greeting, and we don't want to open up a "can of worms" to air out our "dirty laundry" at that time just to answer "truthfully" to a greeting. In fact, the greeting itself might be a lie, because the person really doesn't want the brutal truth, they just want an "I'm fine, thank you" greeting (as opposed to a long narrative). But such are acceptable lies.

The lie we tell about who we are in this forum seems to be acceptable. We use a "handle" instead of our real name. Yes, it's a big fat lie. But we do it for a good cause - to hide ourselves from would-be devils who would use our identity against us. It's called a boundary. We set up boundaries, both physical and psychological. If we indiscriminately trust people we don't know, eventually we get burned by the "fire" of someone's evil nature. Sooner or later we run across a bigger liar who may prove themselves to be corrupt even though they claim to be righteous. They're called "hypocrites." So then, boundaries are good things, but if we overdo it, we tend to become hermits.

Perhaps this is what those psychologists mean by the practice of lying? If so, then is it possible they are naive and failing to acknowledge the reality that people need mental boundaries? Is it possible that some of them justify unethical lying by claiming that lying is universal? If I don't want to burden someone else with my depressing narrative when all they've done is greet me with a "how are you," is that really lying (saying "I'm ok")? Lies can be ethical or unethical. It's a matter of knowing good from evil. If the lie follows the "golden rule" (to love others as myself), then it's ethical. If it doesn't (swindling or slandering someone), then it's unethical and evil. If I lie to a Nazi soldier by saying "no, I'm not hiding Jews," that would be an ethical lie, because it resists evil.

Therefore it depends on the purpose. If someone lies on the forum just to aggravate someone or to stir up a quarrel, then is not that lie unethical and evil? And if a person says what they believe, even if what they believe isn't true, then is that really a lie, because "lie" is defined as intentional? If I persistently tell an untruth because I really believe that untruth is true, it makes me wrong, not a liar. In such case, we have to consider we might be wrong about something, and not be too proud (or afraid) to change our opinion according to facts. Therefore, IMO we should be focusing on facts, because we find truth outside ourselves, not in our feelings.

This is why I'm still a Christian, because I rejected the idea that truth is found inside myself (in my own opinion), and gave in to the idea that truth is found in the Bible (because those who wrote it were true prophets). So my belief system has changed accordingly. I discovered that whether I lie or not has more to do with the purpose of it - why I'm doing it. It's the why, IMO, that determines whether or not I please God.

 

[Ophiolite]

Is a lie different than a falsehood?

I mean, is it not a lie to speak a falsehood?

"Falsehood" is not a word I would typically use. In my vocabulary it would be a synonym for a lie, but I accept that there could be important, though perhaps subtle, distinctions between the two. So, if someone knowingly says something that is not true then they are lying, they are uttering a falsehood, but if they state something that is untrue while thinking it it true, that is not a lie, that is the expression of a mistaken understanding.
Would you tell me what your thinking is on that?

I’m not welcoming trolls presently.

I think @Nithavela directed his question to me and it seems a reasonable question. I would feel more comfortable if you left the "troll watch" to me, for the moment at least.

 

[Larniavc]

I mean, is it not a lie to speak a falsehood?

No. Being wrong is not lying.

 

[One God and Father of All]

"Falsehood" is not a word I would typically use. In my vocabulary it would be a synonym for a lie, but I accept that there could be important, though perhaps subtle, distinctions between the two. So, if someone knowingly says something that is not true then they are lying, they are uttering a falsehood, but if they state something that is untrue while thinking it it true, that is not a lie, that is the expression of a mistaken understanding.
Would you tell me what your thinking is on that?


I think @Nithavela directed his question to me and it seems a reasonable question. I would feel more comfortable if you left the "troll watch" to me, for the moment at least.

I was asking about falsehood because I think a lie and a falsehood are the same. I guess it depends on objective truth.
When you said you may have made statements that were untrue, I equated that as a falsehood.

 

[Ophiolite]

So.. you want us to tell you why you don't tell lies on a forum? I'm confused.

Partly. I recognised this feature of my posting style some years ago, when I found myself looking at a post I was about to make and thinking, "but that's not true. I don't actually think that". On reflection I realised I often edited my writing before posting to ensure there were no lies, either of commission, or omission, yet in the real world I behaved as practically all humans do and told occassional lies. I am curious as to whether others have experienced the same thing, or if they have any suggestions as to why I would adopt this approach.

Also, and this came after I decided to start the thread, I was curious to see how many members would be comfortable admitting to lying, either on the forum, or in real life.

 

[One God and Father of All]

No. Being wrong is not lying.

Was I talking about “wrong”?

 

[Ophiolite]

Why isn't this real life?

I am using the phrase "real life" to distinguish our interactions online, in forums such as this, with our interactions in all other settings. I should probably have put it in quotation marks, rather than relying on the intention being clear from context.

 

[Larniavc]

Was I talking about “wrong”?

Yes. You used the word falsehood. Someone can say something that is false but not be lying. Unless you want to say that in this context wrong and false are not effectively synonymous.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Yes. You used the word falsehood. Someone can say something that is false but not be lying. Unless you want to say that in this context wrong and false are not effectively synonymous.

I didn’t use the word “wrong” because I was being more precise specifically about an “incorrect statement”. An incorrect statement is opposed to a correct statement.
An incorrect statement is a statement that is untrue. Whereas a correct statement would be a true statement. An incorrect statement is a falsehood.

I don‘t think a falsehood is different than a lie.

 

[Nithavela]

Partly. I recognised this feature of my posting style some years ago, when I found myself looking at a post I was about to make and thinking, "but that's not true. I don't actually think that". On reflection I realised I often edited my writing before posting to ensure there were no lies, either of commission, or omission, yet in the real world I behaved as practically all humans do and told occassional lies. I am curious as to whether others have experienced the same thing, or if they have any suggestions as to why I would adopt this approach.

Also, and this came after I decided to start the thread, I was curious to see how many members would be comfortable admitting to lying, either on the forum, or in real life.

I guess this is just the way you enjoy this forum the most. On here, in anonymity and talking about things that don't concern you personally, you can tell the truth without fear of any "real" repercussions. In real life, telling the truth all the time is a surefire way for disaster.

In the same vein, some people lie all the time on a forum, pretending to be someone they are not. I know that I post on here in ways that I would never talk like in real life, or even in other forums. And yes, I've lied and obfuscated on this forum, mostly to amuse myself. I couldn't tell you any concrete examples right now, but I'm certain that I did.

I don't think it would be right to say that this behaviour is "your true self" or something like that. Humans are complex beings and we behave differently according to our surroundings, be it among different groups of friends, at work, in an anonymous forum or when we are alone. None of those facets are "false".

 

[Ophiolite]

IMO there are acceptable lies and unacceptable ones. If parents lie to their children in order to "save" them from the brutal truth (about someone's death or a scandal or such), that seems to be acceptable to most people, and is a debatable subject. We lie regularly when someone says "how are you" as a greeting, and we don't want to open up a "can of worms" to air out our "dirty laundry" at that time just to answer "truthfully" to a greeting. In fact, the greeting itself might be a lie, because the person really doesn't want the brutal truth, they just want an "I'm fine, thank you" greeting (as opposed to a long narrative). But such are acceptable lies.

The lie we tell about who we are in this forum seems to be acceptable. We use a "handle" instead of our real name. Yes, it's a big fat lie. But we do it for a good cause - to hide ourselves from would-be devils who would use our identity against us. It's called a boundary. We set up boundaries, both physical and psychological. If we indiscriminately trust people we don't know, eventually we get burned by the "fire" of someone's evil nature. Sooner or later we run across a bigger liar who may prove themselves to be corrupt even though they claim to be righteous. They're called "hypocrites." So then, boundaries are good things, but if we overdo it, we tend to become hermits.

Perhaps this is what those psychologists mean by the practice of lying? If so, then is it possible they are naive and failing to acknowledge the reality that people need mental boundaries? Is it possible that some of them justify unethical lying by claiming that lying is universal? If I don't want to burden someone else with my depressing narrative when all they've done is greet me with a "how are you," is that really lying (saying "I'm ok")? Lies can be ethical or unethical. It's a matter of knowing good from evil. If the lie follows the "golden rule" (to love others as myself), then it's ethical. If it doesn't (swindling or slandering someone), then it's unethical and evil. If I lie to a Nazi soldier by saying "no, I'm not hiding Jews," that would be an ethical lie, because it resists evil.

Therefore it depends on the purpose. If someone lies on the forum just to aggravate someone or to stir up a quarrel, then is not that lie unethical and evil? And if a person says what they believe, even if what they believe isn't true, then is that really a lie, because "lie" is defined as intentional? If I persistently tell an untruth because I really believe that untruth is true, it makes me wrong, not a liar. In such case, we have to consider we might be wrong about something, and not be too proud (or afraid) to change our opinion according to facts. Therefore, IMO we should be focusing on facts, because we find truth outside ourselves, not in our feelings.

This is why I'm still a Christian, because I rejected the idea that truth is found inside myself (in my own opinion), and gave in to the idea that truth is found in the Bible (because those who wrote it were true prophets). So my belief system has changed accordingly. I discovered that whether I lie or not has more to do with the purpose of it - why I'm doing it. It's the why, IMO, that determines whether or not I please God.

I broadly agree with your discussion of what were traditionally called white lies.

I hadn't thought of my forum name as being a lie, but I understand your argument. I think in my case I had two reasons for using a pseudonym: it's the conventional way this is done; and I liked using a name that tells the reader vastly more about me than using my actual name would do. But taking on board your argument I almost feel I should change the text below my avatar to "This is not my real name". On the other hand everyone understands this is the case, so is it really a lie. I'll think on it some more.

I don't think psychologists would justify ethical lying because lying is universal. Justification is not really something science does. I imagine a great many people have used the observations of psychologists to justify it, but that is different.

Your division of lies into ethical and unethical lies has given me an insight. Offline if I tell what you are defining as an ethical lie, I rarely regret it. But online I seem to avoid even ethical lies. This will lead me to posting remarks like, "While I understand that you believe what you are saying that is strongly contradicted by the evidence."

Thank you for an interesting perspective and some useful thoughts.