Looking for a scripture based discussion on the Rapture

[Larry H.]

I have been a member for a while but mainly for reading other's views, so when it comes to posting, bottom line is, I'm new. I'm looking to have a discussion on the rapture in the "Discussion and Debate" forum (which is were I think I am posting this). I think that is the best place to start?? When the Rapture takes place depends on who you're listening to or who's material you are reading so please understand, I'm not looking for an argument and will not participate in one, nor allow anyone to troll my post into an argument. Nor am I looking to change your belief. Regardless of when you believe it will take place I simply want to talk scriptures, to come to my own conclusion. Also being a new poster, I know there are veterans posters on here and if there is some insight that you see I need for posting I'm open. God bless

 

[HTacianas]

I have been a member for a while but mainly for reading other's views, so when it comes to posting, bottom line is, I'm new. I'm looking to have a discussion on the rapture in the "Discussion and Debate" forum (which is were I think I am posting this). I think that is the best place to start?? When the Rapture takes place depends on who you're listening to or who's material you are reading so please understand, I'm not looking for an argument and will not participate in one, nor allow anyone to troll my post into an argument. Nor am I looking to change your belief. Regardless of when you believe it will take place I simply want to talk scriptures, to come to my own conclusion. Also being a new poster, I know there are veterans posters on here and if there is some insight that you see I need for posting I'm open. God bless

The "rapture" as is commonly meant to mean the taking away of Christians prior to some sort of tribulation is an idea that has only been around since 1840 or so. You cannot have a "scriptural discussion" of it because no such scripture exists to support it. There is mention of a catching away that occurs at the very end of time that can be found at 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.

 

[Clare73]

I have been a member for a while but mainly for reading other's views, so when it comes to posting, bottom line is, I'm new. I'm looking to have a discussion on the rapture in the "Discussion and Debate" forum (which is were I think I am posting this). I think that is the best place to start?? When the Rapture takes place depends on who you're listening to or who's material you are reading so please understand, I'm not looking for an argument and will not participate in one, nor allow anyone to troll my post into an argument. Nor am I looking to change your belief. Regardless of when you believe it will take place I simply want to talk scriptures, to come to my own conclusion. Also being a new poster, I know there are veterans posters on here and if there is some insight that you see I need for posting I'm open. God bless

Well, the Scriptures you must reckon with are the authoritative apostolic teaching of the NT (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Nu 12:8), wherein it all happens at the end of time, according to NT apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew.
Any other personal assertions from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) must overcome the following NT authoritative apostolic teaching:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

In NT teaching, the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

 

[Michie]

I have been a member for a while but mainly for reading other's views, so when it comes to posting, bottom line is, I'm new. I'm looking to have a discussion on the rapture in the "Discussion and Debate" forum (which is were I think I am posting this). I think that is the best place to start?? When the Rapture takes place depends on who you're listening to or who's material you are reading so please understand, I'm not looking for an argument and will not participate in one, nor allow anyone to troll my post into an argument. Nor am I looking to change your belief. Regardless of when you believe it will take place I simply want to talk scriptures, to come to my own conclusion. Also being a new poster, I know there are veterans posters on here and if there is some insight that you see I need for posting I'm open. God bless

Larry-
There is a lot of rapture discussion on this forum: Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

I hope it helps!

 

[Larry H.]

The "rapture" as is commonly meant to mean the taking away of Christians prior to some sort of tribulation is an idea that has only been around since 1840 or so. You cannot have a "scriptural discussion" of it because no such scripture exists to support it. There is mention of a catching away that occurs at the very end of time that can be found at 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Thank you for your input. In my studying I have past the point of understand that the word "rapture" is only a man's term referring to scriptures such as the ones you noted. I'm not sure why that word, "rapture" was chosen. I personally would have chosen a more biblical type word such as our "Blessed Hope" as Titus used in 2:3 or maybe our "Reaping" as John used in Rev 20. Rapture does seem to be the most common accepted word to refer to the events in those scriptures you noted as well as Rev 14:14-16 a future event Paul seems to be referring to and possibly the future event of the resurrections of the dead in Rev. 20: 4-6. That is why I used it. Again thank you

 

[Larry H.]

Larry-
There is a lot of rapture discussion on this forum: Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

I hope it helps!

Oh thank you. I actually went to Eschatology after being referred to it by another member but didn't see anything related. Clearly I didn't dig in and I gave up to soon. I'm learning. Again thank you

 

[Clare73]

Thank you for your input. In my studying I have past the point of understand that the word "rapture" is only a man's term referring to scriptures such as the ones you noted. I'm not sure why that word, "rapture" was chosen. I personally would have chosen a more biblical type word such as our "Blessed Hope" as Titus used in 2:3 or maybe our "Reaping" as John used in Rev 20. Rapture does seem to be the most common accepted word to refer to the events in those scriptures you noted as well as Rev 14:14-16 a future event Paul seems to be referring to and possibly the future event of the resurrections of the dead in Rev. 20: 4-6. That is why I used it. Again thank you

Because the Greek harpazo (catching up) was translated rapturo in the Latin, which was then translated rapture in the English.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I believed in a pre-trib rapture for 8 years when I was first saved. Just sort of swallowed it with all the rest. Then I actually read the scriptures and changed my mind.

Just a handful of the plethora of Scriptural proof:
The "first resurrection" will take place on the "last day," at the "last trump," after the "great" tribulation" of those days, after the emergence of the beast, after the great falling away."
The first resurrection means there were none before it. Rev 20:5-6
The last day means no more days after it in this time frame. John 6:39-40
The last trump means there will be no more trumps after it. 1 Corin 15:52
After the "great tribulation" of those days is, well, after the great tribulation of those days. Matt 24:21,29
After the emergence of the beast means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3
After the great falling away means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3

 

[Larry H.]

The "rapture" as is commonly meant to mean the taking away of Christians prior to some sort of tribulation is an idea that has only been around since 1840 or so. You cannot have a "scriptural discussion" of it because no such scripture exists to support it. There is mention of a catching away that occurs at the very end of time that can be found at 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Well, the Scriptures you must reckon with are the authoritative apostolic teaching of the NT (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Nu 12:8), wherein it all happens at the end of time, according to NT apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew.
Any other personal assertions from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) must overcome the following NT authoritative apostolic teaching:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).

Because the Greek harpazo (catching up) was translated rapturo in the Latin, which was then translated rapture in the English.

That is interesting Clare73. I just never dug that deep into it's use

I believed in a pre-trib rapture for 8 years when I was first saved. Just sort of swallowed it with all the rest. Then I actually read the scriptures and changed my mind.

Just a handful of the plethora of Scriptural proof:
The "first resurrection" will take place on the "last day," at the "last trump," after the "great" tribulation" of those days, after the emergence of the beast, after the great falling away."
The first resurrection means there were none before it. Rev 20:5-6
The last day means no more days after it in this time frame. John 6:39-40
The last trump means there will be no more trumps after it. 1 Corin 15:52
After the "great tribulation" of those days is, well, after the great tribulation of those days. Matt 24:21,29
After the emergence of the beast means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3
After the great falling away means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3

Thank you for your input. I really don't know. I know a lot of people believe in a pre-trib but respectably to each and every one that does, I just can't see it in the scriptures. I will surely consider your input. Would you share your take on Rev. 14:14-16. Again thanks

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the coming of the Lord is in the last day at the judgment of all mankind at the end of time:

In NT teaching, the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(And also let me point out that the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby makes only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Thank you. I'll surely revisit all of these and consider the added info you gave.

 

[HTacianas]

Thank you for your input. I really don't know. I know a lot of people believe in a pre-trib but respectably to each and every one that does, I just can't see it in the scriptures. I will surely consider your input. Would you share your take on Rev. 14:14-16. Again thanks

Thank you. I'll surely revisit all of these and consider the added info you gave.

Rev 14:14-20 describes two "harvests". One is the Son of Man reaping and harvesting his people. Notice that they are only harvested. It then goes on to describe a second "harvest". The second harvest are those who are subjected to the wrath of God, see v. 19.

If you really want to know the meaning of it, look first at Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27. He sends his angels to gather. Angel is from the Greek angelos, which simply means messenger. His messengers are sent to gather. But it only says that they are sent prior to the events, not that they will return prior to. That is the first harvest. It is ongoing. The second harvest was the wrath of God that was poured out on Jerusalem.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

As a put of understanding, many of the pre-trib believers separate the resurrection of the saints from the "2nd coming" when Jesus returns to the earth. All others see these as the same event, where Jesus meets His church in the air, and then continues down to the earth, all on the last day.

 

[Clare73]

As a put of understanding, many of the pre-trib believers separate the resurrection of the saints from the "2nd coming" when Jesus returns to the earth. All others see these as the same event, where Jesus meets His church in the air, and then continues down to the earth, all on the last day.

NT authoritative apostolic teaching (post #3) leaves no room for alternatives.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

By far the most authoritative teaching on the Rapture by Lutheran Satire can be found here: (3:53 min)

 

[Larry H.]

NT authoritative apostolic teaching (post #3) leaves no room for alternatives.

Good evening, What is your take on Matthew 27:50-53. Also in post #3 you referenced Numbers 12:8, I'm not sure I got your point. Basically what I read in the context of those scriptures (12:1-9) is, that Aaron and Marian was talking junk about Moses in the tabernacle. With Moses being God's servant, God didn't like it, so He called them outside, Then God called Aaron and Marian forward, and he gave them a tongue lashing (12:7-8) What it means to me is to be very careful who I talked about. Gosh, being called outside by God would be a horrible situation to be in.

 

[Clare73]

Good evening, What is your take on Matthew 27:50-53.

Hi, Larry,

Tearing the exceedingly think woven linen curtain from top to bottom, which separated the immediate presence of God from the people, which top was too high to reach, demonstrated it was not torn by man, while its tearing symbolized Christ's body which was torn to open the way to the throne of grace (Heb 10:19-20).

Also in post #3 you referenced Numbers 12:8, I'm not sure I got your point. Basically what I read in the context of those scriptures (12:1-9) is, that Aaron and Marian was talking junk about Moses in the tabernacle. With Moses being God's servant, God didn't like it, so He called them outside, Then God called Aaron and Marian forward, and he gave them a tongue lashing (12:7-8) What it means to me is to be very careful who I talked about. Gosh, being called outside by God would be a horrible situation to be in.

In God's reprimand of Aaron and Miriam, he points out that he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings, not clearly or literally) to all the other prophets, while to Moses he speaks clearly. . .my point being that prophecy is not necessarily to be interpreted literally.

 

[Larry H.]

NT authoritative apostolic teaching (post #3) leaves no room for alternatives.

Sorry I think I hit enter twice

 

[Larry H.]

By far the most authoritative teaching on the Rapture by Lutheran Satire can be found here: (3:53 min)

Now I know were to go.

 

[Larry H.]

Hi, Larry,

Tearing the exceedingly think woven linen curtain from top to bottom, which separated the immediate presence of God from the people, which top was too high to reach, demonstrated it was not torn by man, while its tearing symbolized Christ's body which was torn to open the way to the throne of grace (Heb 10:19-20).


In God's reprimand of Aaron and Miriam, he points out that he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings, not clearly or literally) to all the other prophets, while to Moses he speaks clearly. . .my point being that prophecy is not necessarily to be interpreted literally.

Thank you, Point taken. Also I agree, I see the tearing of the curtain which separated the Holy of Holies from the people nothing less than a supernatural amazing event, Opening a place up to anyone willing to come before Christ, which was so Holy, that if a High Priest entered into it, he tied a rope to himself, so if the power of God struck him dead, he could be drug out. Just WOW

 

[Larry H.]

As a put of understanding, many of the pre-trib believers separate the resurrection of the saints from the "2nd coming" when Jesus returns to the earth. All others see these as the same event, where Jesus meets His church in the air, and then continues down to the earth, all on the last day.

Thank you for the additional info. It's almost time for our Bible study however, in reading back over your input (#8 and #11) it brought several questions to mind so, before I go for the evening, could I ask your take also on Mat 27:50-53 and on 1 Thess 14:16-17. Until I check in tomorrow, and beyond, May God bless

 

[Simon_Templar]

The basic scriptural statement of what the rapture is, is that it is the gathering together of those who are in Christ, when Jesus returns. This is found most especially in 2nd Thessalonians and in the "Olivet Discourse" in the synoptic gospels.

What most modern people miss when discussing this topic is the ancient context that explains what is being talked about.

This is referring to a very specific and well known ancient practice which most people today are unaware of.
When a royal person, or very important person visited a city, it was customary for the people of the city to go out of the city to meet the dignitary and line the road as a welcoming committee.

The most famous example of this type of event is actually Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. This was not a unique event, it was how Kings and Emperors were traditionally welcomed.

Josephus also describes a similar event when Alexander the Great came to Jerusalem.

What the rapture is, is when Jesus returns as King, all of his people will be gathered to Jerusalem to welcome him in a glorious procession.