Looking for a scripture based discussion on the Rapture

[Larry H.]

The basic scriptural statement of what the rapture is, is that it is the gathering together of those who are in Christ, when Jesus returns. This is found most especially in 2nd Thessalonians and in the "Olivet Discourse" in the synoptic gospels.

What most modern people miss when discussing this topic is the ancient context that explains what is being talked about.

This is referring to a very specific and well known ancient practice which most people today are unaware of.
When a royal person, or very important person visited a city, it was customary for the people of the city to go out of the city to meet the dignitary and line the road as a welcoming committee.

The most famous example of this type of event is actually Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. This was not a unique event, it was how Kings and Emperors were traditionally welcomed.

Josephus also describes a similar event when Alexander the Great came to Jerusalem.

What the rapture is, is when Jesus returns as King, all of his people will be gathered to Jerusalem to welcome him in a glorious procession.

Thank you

 

[com7fy8]

Regardless of when you believe it will take place I simply want to talk scriptures, to come to my own conclusion.

In 2 Timothy 2:18, our Apostle Paul says there are people who have strayed from the truth, by

"saying the resurrection is already past" (in 2 Timothy 2:18).

Here, our Apostle Paul uses the term "the resurrection" to mean the resurrection of Christ's church when He returns. And the meaning of "Rapture" includes this resurrection of Christ's church when He comes back.

People also use the term "Rapture" to bring out how our resurrection will be with great joy and delight to rise to be with Jesus.

So, I offer that the term "Rapture" refers to the resurrection that Paul is talking about in 2 Timothy 2:18. And this also has to do with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which says "the dead in Christ will rise first" and we who are still alive "will then be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So, there is our resurrection and rising to be with Jesus "in the air". "Rapture" means both the resurrection and then the rising and delight of being with our Groom Jesus.

So, I accept that the word "Rapture" might not be found in the Bible, but it can have Biblical meaning.

So, this is what the Rapture is, and you ask when it is. I will offer things I have about when, the Lord willing, in another post.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi, Larry > you want to talk about "When the Rapture takes place". And, of course, the word "Rapture" does not appear in scripture that we have in a lot of English translations of God's word So, no way can there be a direct statement in the Bible saying something like "the Rapture will happen at" whatever time.

And the Holy Spirit easily could have included such a statement, if God wanted, if God knows this is true.

Also, I have not found any simple direct statement saying anything like, "Jesus will come back immediately before the Great Tribulation."

So, in our New Testament, we have no plain and simple statement guaranteeing that Jesus will return immediately before the trib to Rapture us. So, possibly it is honest to say that a pre-trib Rapture is not directly revealed as being part of the New Covenant and is not a clearly stated Biblical claim.

And we do have various statements plainly stated in the New Testament, but no clear revelation saying Jesus will resurrect us just before the Great Tribulation starts.

But Jesus Himself reveals what will happen "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

You can check this out in Matthew chapter 24, verses 21 and verses 29-31. And then we can get into more detail if you want, the Lord willing.

 

[Larry H.]

In 2 Timothy 2:18, our Apostle Paul says there are people who have strayed from the truth, by

"saying the resurrection is already past" (in 2 Timothy 2:18).

Here, our Apostle Paul uses the term "the resurrection" to mean the resurrection of Christ's church when He returns. And the meaning of "Rapture" includes this resurrection of Christ's church when He comes back.

People also use the term "Rapture" to bring out how our resurrection will be with great joy and delight to rise to be with Jesus.

So, I offer that the term "Rapture" refers to the resurrection that Paul is talking about in 2 Timothy 2:18. And this also has to do with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which says "the dead in Christ will rise first" and we who are still alive "will then be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

So, there is our resurrection and rising to be with Jesus "in the air". "Rapture" means both the resurrection and then the rising and delight of being with our Groom Jesus.

So, I accept that the word "Rapture" might not be found in the Bible, but it can have Biblical meaning.

So, this is what the Rapture is, and you ask when it is. I will offer things I have about when, the Lord willing, in another post.

Thank you for your input, I have no issue with the use of the word rapture, my apology if that was implied. I would agree with Paul on 2 Timothy 218 in more ways than one. I actually have not came across anyone that believes the resurrection/Rapture has already passed. If I had I would respectfully disagree. However it does seem clear that people have strayed whereas some believe in a pre-rap, some a mid-rap and some believe the raptor will take place after tribulations. It would seem all can't be right, though I would not go as far as to say that's impossible, I would say that, after an extensive study of The Book of Revelation, it seems there are scriptures that one will have to reckon with regardless of when one believes the Rapture will take place, pre/mid/after. It would be interesting to know how the different Believers came to those scriptures. I have rules to go by in my studying, one is: "If any scriptures does not line up with what I believe, it is not the scripture that's out of line, it is what I believe, that is out of line" so, in the end if I have to come to the conclusion "I simply do not know", that would be okay too. Again thank you for your input

 

[Simon_Templar]

Thank you for your input, I have no issue with the use of the word rapture, my apology if that was implied. I would agree with Paul on 2 Timothy 218 in more ways than one. I actually have not came across anyone that believes the resurrection/Rapture has already passed. If I had I would respectfully disagree. However it does seem clear that people have strayed whereas some believe in a pre-rap, some a mid-rap and some believe the raptor will take place after tribulations. It would seem all can't be right, though I would not go as far as to say that's impossible, I would say that, after an extensive study of The Book of Revelation, it seems there are scriptures that one will have to reckon with regardless of when one believes the Rapture will take place, pre/mid/after. It would be interesting to know how the different Believers came to those scriptures. I have rules to go by in my studying, one is: "If any scriptures does not line up with what I believe, it is not the scripture that's out of line, it is what I believe, that is out of line" so, in the end if I have to come to the conclusion "I simply do not know", that would be okay too. Again thank you for your input

Maybe this will be useful to you...

End time views can be broken down into a series of categories...

Pre-Millennial
The premillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after he returns.

Premil people are pretty much all futurists, holding that most "end-time" prophecy is yet to happen and will come to pass at some point in the future. These in turn break down into three groups based on their view of the Rapture and the Great Tribulation.

Pre-Tribulation
In this view the rapture will remove Christians from the earth before the Antichrist arises and launches his persecution, also known as the Tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation / Pre-Wrath
In this view the rapture will remove Christians from the earth after the Antichrist arises and begins persecuting, but before God pours out his wrath.

Post-Tribulation
In this view the rapture will happen only when Jesus returns openly to the earth, after the Tribulation has happened and the Antichrist has been defeated by Jesus.

Post-Millennial
The postmillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, is symbolic of the Messianic Age which we entered into when Jesus came the first time. In this view Christians will create a kind of Kingdom of Heaven on earth, by religious revival and evangelization and converting the world to a degree where Christian morality dominates the earth. Only after this will Jesus actually return.

Most postmillennialists tend to be historicists or some degree of preterist, meaning they believe most or all of "end-time" prophecy has been fulfilled already during the 1st century AD.

A-Millennial
The amillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, is symbolic of the Church established as the Kingdom of Heaven. The thousand years is viewed as a rhetorical way of saying "a long time" much like when Peter says "with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day".

Some amillennialists are historicist, believing that much of "end-time" prophecy has been fulfilled in the 1st century.

However, many amillennialists also hold some degree of futurist, by believing that there is a future antichrist who will come and a tribulation etc.

Amillennialists, however, do not generally believe in a rapture. With one caveat.

Most amillennialists only know the word "rapture" from the context of pre-tribulation rapture teaching, which is rejected by amillennialists. There is an understanding of the Rapture similar to what Post-tribulation premils hold, that is compatible with amillennialism.

For the record, I was raised as a Premillennialist post-tribulation believer. I am now an Amillennialist with a hybrid of historicist view and futurist view and I do believe in a rapture, but not as most Premils would describe it.

I think that much of prophecy has echoed in the past with foreshadowing, and yet will also have future fulfillments.

 

[Larry H.]

Hi, Larry > you want to talk about "When the Rapture takes place". And, of course, the word "Rapture" does not appear in scripture that we have in a lot of English translations of God's word So, no way can there be a direct statement in the Bible saying something like "the Rapture will happen at" whatever time.

And the Holy Spirit easily could have included such a statement, if God wanted, if God knows this is true.

Also, I have not found any simple direct statement saying anything like, "Jesus will come back immediately before the Great Tribulation."

So, in our New Testament, we have no plain and simple statement guaranteeing that Jesus will return immediately before the trib to Rapture us. So, possibly it is honest to say that a pre-trib Rapture is not directly revealed as being part of the New Covenant and is not a clearly stated Biblical claim.

And we do have various statements plainly stated in the New Testament, but no clear revelation saying Jesus will resurrect us just before the Great Tribulation starts.

But Jesus Himself reveals what will happen "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

You can check this out in Matthew chapter 24, verses 21 and verses 29-31. And then we can get into more detail if you want, the Lord willing.

Again thank you for your input. Matthew chapter 24 is a very good chapter when it comes to past/present/future events which is what Jesus was attempting to explain, though at that time I would say they were all still future. It would seem clear that verses 3-12 are presently unfolding before our eyes. it would seem clear that verses 13-15 have not taken place and that versus 15 through 24 are specifically talking about when the antichrist attempts to take God's position. It would seem that in verse 25-31 Jesus back track to the disciples something he has already told them, being of His return. 32 to 44 is clearly Jesus trying to express the importance of knowing the signs of his coming return, with 45-51 balancing the difference between being ready and not being ready. Again, thank you, God bless.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I believed in a pre-trib rapture for 8 years when I was first saved. Just sort of swallowed it with all the rest. Then I actually read the scriptures and changed my mind.

Just a handful of the plethora of Scriptural proof:
The "first resurrection" will take place on the "last day," at the "last trump," after the "great" tribulation" of those days, after the emergence of the beast, after the great falling away."
The first resurrection means there were none before it. Rev 20:5-6
The last day means no more days after it in this time frame. John 6:39-40
The last trump means there will be no more trumps after it. 1 Corin 15:52
After the "great tribulation" of those days is, well, after the great tribulation of those days. Matt 24:21,29
After the emergence of the beast means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3
After the great falling away means it cannot happen before. (Paul said do not be deceived about this!) 2 Thess 2:3

No comment on your post, with which I agree.

But I just noticed in your tag that you used to be Didaskalos. I remember that name from way back! I haven't been here in years, thought I'd check the forums out and see what they are like now and see if I ran into any of the people from back in the day! Good to see you are still around

 

[Qubit]

From Wikipedia...

Most Christian denominations do not subscribe to rapture theology and have a different interpretation of the aerial gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4.

They do not use rapture as a specific theological term, nor do they generally subscribe to the premillennial dispensational views associated with its use.

Instead, they typically interpret rapture in the sense of the elect gathering with Christ in Heaven right after his second coming and reject the idea that a large segment of humanity will be left behind on earth for an extended tribulation period after the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Rapture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Larry H.]

Maybe this will be useful to you...

End time views can be broken down into a series of categories...

Pre-Millennial
The premillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after he returns.

Premil people are pretty much all futurists, holding that most "end-time" prophecy is yet to happen and will come to pass at some point in the future. These in turn break down into three groups based on their view of the Rapture and the Great Tribulation.

Pre-Tribulation
In this view the rapture will remove Christians from the earth before the Antichrist arises and launches his persecution, also known as the Tribulation.

Mid-Tribulation / Pre-Wrath
In this view the rapture will remove Christians from the earth after the Antichrist arises and begins persecuting, but before God pours out his wrath.

Post-Tribulation
In this view the rapture will happen only when Jesus returns openly to the earth, after the Tribulation has happened and the Antichrist has been defeated by Jesus.

Post-Millennial
The postmillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, is symbolic of the Messianic Age which we entered into when Jesus came the first time. In this view Christians will create a kind of Kingdom of Heaven on earth, by religious revival and evangelization and converting the world to a degree where Christian morality dominates the earth. Only after this will Jesus actually return.

Most postmillennialists tend to be historicists or some degree of preterist, meaning they believe most or all of "end-time" prophecy has been fulfilled already during the 1st century AD.

A-Millennial
The amillennial view is named after the belief that the "Millennial Kingdom" of Revelation 20, is symbolic of the Church established as the Kingdom of Heaven. The thousand years is viewed as a rhetorical way of saying "a long time" much like when Peter says "with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day".

Some amillennialists are historicist, believing that much of "end-time" prophecy has been fulfilled in the 1st century.

However, many amillennialists also hold some degree of futurist, by believing that there is a future antichrist who will come and a tribulation etc.

Amillennialists, however, do not generally believe in a rapture. With one caveat.

Most amillennialists only know the word "rapture" from the context of pre-tribulation rapture teaching, which is rejected by amillennialists. There is an understanding of the Rapture similar to what Post-tribulation premils hold, that is compatible with amillennialism.

For the record, I was raised as a Premillennialist post-tribulation believer. I am now an Amillennialist with a hybrid of historicist view and futurist view and I do believe in a rapture, but not as most Premils would describe it.

I think that much of prophecy has echoed in the past with foreshadowing, and yet will also have future fulfillments.

Good morning, I figured I'd make a quick check-in before starting my day. Thank you for your input, I hope you don't mind if I copy and paste this into my notes, (with your CF name attached). I do extensive bible studies on topics (each take about a year) and put those notes in booklet form, in which I give away for the asking. All are strictly scripture based and I try to keep each at about a 45 min read. About 2 years ago I decided to do the same with "The Book of Revelation" (which looks like it may be two booklets, V1 & V2). Though it has taken longer. I hope to finish the notes for this booklet soon ("Revelation 101"). I have no plans at this time to write one on Rapture/Blessed Hope/Reaping, Simply because I believe that when we believe the Rapture is going to take place, will have no bearing on whether we'll make it to heaven or not. I believe the bottom line is, be ready as if it's going to happen today. None-the-less, if I were to decided to write such a booklet, your info would be good reference info. Again, thank you and God bless BTW I hope I did not voice dictate/write this so quick it is not clear, I try not to do that but I still do sometimes LOL

 

[SavedByGrace3]

No comment on your post, with which I agree.

But I just noticed in your tag that you used to be Didaskalos. I remember that name from way back! I haven't been here in years, thought I'd check the forums out and see what they are like now and see if I ran into any of the people from back in the day! Good to see you are still around

Yes..I remember your work here. Thanks for all you do!

 

[com7fy8]

I believe the bottom line is, be ready as if it's going to happen today.

In Matthew 24:44 Jesus says,

"Therefore you also be ready" (in Matthew 24:44).

So, after all He says about the end times, He says "Therefore" to be ready.

So, yes, be ready.

Be pure and all-loving like Jesus, humble and kind and generously forgiving. This way, we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus and one another.

In case we die before the Rapture, be ready to die right so we are ready to rise right in the Rapture >

"the dead in Christ will rise first",

we have in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

So, it is clear the dead in Jesus will rise before the ones still alive on this earth. But if people still alive get raptured before the tribulation, they would be rising before the Christians who die during the tribulation. And Paul says the dead rise first.

So, I can see the real Rapture will be after all the Christians killed in the tribulation have died. They will rise first, then anyone still alive in Jesus at the end of the trib will rise, after the martyrs have risen.

I would not expect to live fairly comfortably, and be Raptured before God's children who die during the trib.

Plus, why would I a mature Christian not want to be here to help the Jews and others who get saved during the tribulation?

 

[Larry H.]

In Matthew 24:44 Jesus says,

"Therefore you also be ready" (in Matthew 24:44).

So, after all He says about the end times, He says "Therefore" to be ready.

So, yes, be ready.

Be pure and all-loving like Jesus, humble and kind and generously forgiving. This way, we are ready to spend eternity with Jesus and one another.

In case we die before the Rapture, be ready to die right so we are ready to rise right in the Rapture >

"the dead in Christ will rise first",

we have in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

So, it is clear the dead in Jesus will rise before the ones still alive on this earth. But if people still alive get raptured before the tribulation, they would be rising before the Christians who die during the tribulation. And Paul says the dead rise first.

So, I can see the real Rapture will be after all the Christians killed in the tribulation have died. They will rise first, then anyone still alive in Jesus at the end of the trib will rise, after the martyrs have risen.

I would not expect to live fairly comfortably, and be Raptured before God's children who die during the trib.

Plus, why would I a mature Christian not want to be here to help the Jews and others who get saved during the tribulation?

Yes, "be ready." Also when it comes to when the Rapture will take place, one of the things that I have to consider is, when the plagues of God were poured out on Egypt, where was God's people? In Egypt. God bless

 

[Larry H.]

From Wikipedia...

Thank you for your reference. Unfortunately Wikipedia's view seems to have holes in it. I have also found the same situation in a lot of people's writings on the subject. That is why when I'm using information that is going to be referenced for one of my Bible study booklets, it has to be scriptural based in a in a strict since. I always keep in mind that God's words says for "me" to study His word to be approved by him, not just read it, but to be a Workman at studying it, dividing the words of truth. I also take God's warning about reading a lot of other material as a stern warning. I cannot cherry pick scriptures and just pick out what fits the lifestyle I want to live. I also cannot use a lot of other people's material to get out of being a "workman" at studying God's word because it will confuse my thinking. (2 Tim. 2-15, Ecc 12:12-24) Both of these are taking place today because we are a society that wonts things "now" and the easy way out. So, rather than investing the time in God's word, digging through all the mysteries in it, to allow God's revelation to us through His word, we find it quicker and easier to just grab somebody else's material, and read it. The main problem doing that is; is it's going against God's word. Well, I've got to get my day started so for now, may God bless.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, "be ready." Also when it comes to when the Rapture will take place, one of the things that I have to consider is, when the plagues of God were poured out on Egypt, where was God's people? In Egypt. God bless

Yes, they were not removed first, plus God had control of His wrath judgments so they did not hurt His people, but only hurt the Egyptians.

And we have how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were right in the fiery furnace, but it did not hurt them, but those same flames did kill the men who threw them in there.

So, God is not like an abusive alcoholic father who can hit the good kids as well as the naughty ones.

So, yes we do have what Paul has said >

"For God did not appoint us to wrath,"

in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Because He did not appoint us to wrath, any child of God in the great tribulation will be safe from those wrath judgments. And we do have teaching that there will be saved people on earth during that tribulation.

According to Revelation chapter seven, there will be "servants" who will be sealed so the wrath things don't hurt them > Revelation 7:3-8. These will be of Israel. But we also have the "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues" "who come out of the great tribulation" > this is in Revelation 7:9-17.

Ones say this tribulation will be seven years long. If this is so, then new Christians who are saved during the tribulstion will have less than seven years of maturing in Jesus. They will be newborns, even, at first; yet God will be able to keep them and have them growing and thriving in Jesus!

"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

Those evil people will not be able to do anything to us except in God's control with perfect timing of His purpose. And those wrath judgments will keep them in line.

Possibly, there will be supply trucks going off the roads, and houses and huts and caves abandoned by sinners who die and who are killed by God's wrath judgments, and we will be able to scavenge the food and other supplies left by crashed trucks and planes and people no longer using places where they lived. You might be able to choose your house or hut, each night, plus adopt their children and bring them up to become children of God.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I don't think I've ever met anyone who believes that God's wrath against the antichrist or the nations is going to fall on Christians.

That has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Christians will be persecuted by the forces of evil, which the Bible clearly indicates will happen.

 

[Larry H.]

I don't think I've ever met anyone who believes that God's wrath against the antichrist or the nations is going to fall on Christians.

That has nothing to do with the question of whether or not Christians will be persecuted by the forces of evil, which the Bible clearly indicates will happen.

Neither have I, Good will always protect those in His will and those in His will, will always be persecuted