Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Ana the Ist]

False.

True.

False.

True.

Israeli supporters are ignorant of the meaning.

That's certainly possible...but the Hamas supporters definitely don't know the meaning.

False.

True.

Universities are invested in arms manufactures who supply arms to murder babies and children.

We've already been over the apartheid stuff...

Go ahead and tell me which universities are invested in arms manufacturing and how much they've invested in arms manufacturing.

I couldn't find any such information but hey, maybe you did.

False.

True.

Red herring.

Not a red herring...just my personal opinion.

They haven't fizzled out because the issue is real.

What issue?

Joe's going to lose the election because he took Israel's side.

As long as he loses...frankly I don't care why. He's failed on basically every issue. I know he's losing the black vote in record numbers and I doubt it's because of Israel....more likely it's his destruction of the economy.

Here's a fun fact though...no matter who wins, they'll support Israel. It doesn't matter if they promise to support Hamas....they'll support Israel.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1. Don't use 2000lb bombs.

Why not?

2. Don't destroy and bulldoze farms.

Why not?

3. Don't destroy and bulldoze cemeteries.

Why not?

4. Don't target children and babies.

They don't...Hamas does hide behind them like cowards though.

5. Don't leave babies to slowly die in hospitals.

They don't.

6. Don't torture people in custody to death.

Is this advice for Hamas?

7. Allow food and water in.

Why?

8. Don't bomb the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

It's war...mistakes happen.

9. Open up your own territory to temporarily evacuate civilians.

Nonsense. Egypt can open up its territory to evacuate civilians.

10. Don't bomb hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

11. Don't lie about bombing hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

12. Don't destroy bakeries.

Why not?

13. Don't destroy water purification equipment.

Why not?

14. Don't destroy sewage treatment facilities.

Why not?

15. Don't murder paramedics.

Paramedics shouldn't be hiding Hamas fighters.

16. Don't murder reporters.

It's a war....reporters risk their lives by getting too close.

17. Don't bomb the routes to the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

See above.

18. Allow medicine, including painkillers, in.

Why? Shouldn't those civilians be fleeing??

19. Don't murder aid workers.

Don't hide Hamas fighters.

20. I could go on and on.

I wouldn't waste your time...you should inform yourself first.

Of course, this could all have been prevented if Israel and its supporters would have simply not continued their concentration camp and the murder and pillaging of Palestinians and their land.

That's not why this war started.

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.

Btw...this is Gaza pre-war...

This is the Dachau concentration camp...

This is the Aushwitz concentration camp...

You may be able to fool some ignorant people who have no idea what a concentration camp is...but you won't fool any jews.

 

[Philip_B]

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.

This is an oversimplification and rightly could be thought of as propaganda. The decision about where you start the discussion will determine where you end up. And to be clear I am firmly against the actions of Hamas on October 7 2023.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is an oversimplification and rightly could be thought of as propaganda.

Well I'm speaking specifically about this war.

Not the previous wars....this one specifically.

If you think I'm forgetting something, spit it out.

The decision about where you start the discussion will determine where you end up. And to be clear I am firmly against the actions of Hamas on October 7 2023.

Ok...one has to start an explanation somewhere though, and honestly, I don't think Gaza would be in the situation they are currently in had October 7th not happened.

 

[Philip_B]

Well I'm speaking specifically about this war.

Not the previous wars....this one specifically.

If you think I'm forgetting something, spit it out.





Ok...one has to start an explanation somewhere though, and honestly, I don't think Gaza would be in the situation they are currently in had October 7th not happened.

I think that is a poor approach to history, like suggesting truth in substance can be gleaned from factoids.

If as you and the Prime Minister of Israel contend the atrocities of the 7th of October 2023 are the root cause of this particular war, surely it is reasonable to assume that one might want to investigate what were the causes that resulted in those events. The region has been dominated by empires between the two periods of self-rule by Israel - the 75 years of the Davidic Kingdom and the 75 years of the Secular Democracy. The Jews have lived in a land subjected for some of that time but for most of the time in exile and diaspora. The Palestinians are not intruders but rather the people who have tilled the soil and made their homes here. The Zionist movement of Europe and England from the late 19th century focussed on the idea that this land was given to the Jews by God in perpetuity. That has steadily grown be the idea that it was to be theirs exclusively.

No doubt one of the source texts for that is found in Genesis 17, where God is speaking to Abraham

(7) I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. (8) And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’​

The offspring of Abraham that we know about include

• Ishmael (by Hagar)
• Isaac (by Sarah)
• Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (by Kenurah)

It seems to me that claims of exclusivity of ownership/possession of the land are a more modern invention.

The approach taken by Lord Balfour which ultimately led to the Balfour Declaration was designed to discriminate against the Palestinian people, and this was redoubled by UN Security Council Resolution 242.

During the troubles in Ireland, one of the sayings that did the rounds was "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" It probably has some resonance in the current conflict as well.

 

[MartyF]

True.


True.

Do you have a source?

That's certainly possible...but the Hamas supporters definitely don't know the meaning.

Maybe we should ask the Likud party.

What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?

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jewishcurrents.org

Go ahead and tell me which universities are invested in arms manufacturing and how much they've invested in arms manufacturing.

I couldn't find any such information but hey, maybe you did.

Here . . . let me help you.

We've already been over the apartheid stuff...

Who's we?

And right here is an admission to there being apartheid and the support of it!

Nonsense. Egypt can open up its territory to evacuate civilians.

Not a red herring...just my personal opinion.

You might want to look up what a red herring is.

Here's a fun fact though...no matter who wins, they'll support Israel. It doesn't matter if they promise to support Hamas....they'll support Israel.

A foreign country in complete political control of the U.S. - You're happy about this?

 

[MartyF]

Why not?

Because it kills everyone around the target and not just the target.

Why not?

Because people can't feed themselves without farms.

Why not?

Because the only reason to bulldoze a cemetery is to carry out an ethnic cleansing.

They don't...Hamas does hide behind them like cowards though.

The only ones who do that is Israel.

They don't.

The corpses of babies disagree with you.

Israel left premature babies to die alone in Gaza hospital

A correspondent for the Arabic language channel Al-Mashhad TV reported from inside the Al Nasr Children's Hospital the discovery of decomposing bodies of several premature babies left alone in the hospital Israel forcefully evacuated.

www.newarab.com

Is this advice for Hamas?

Hamas shouldn't torture its prisoners either but Hamas isn't known for torturing prisoners - Israel is.

Doctor tortured and killed in Israeli detention remembered

Adnan al-Bursh refused to flee, even when the hospital he worked in came under heavy bombardment. He was arrested by Israeli troops in December

www.middleeasteye.net

Why?

To allow people to eat.

It's war...mistakes happen.

Not a mistake - done on purpose.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

No evidence of this.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

20. Israel shouldn't lie about military bases under hospitals.

Why not?

Because they feed people.

Why not?

Because they provide fresh drinking water.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

NIV

Why not?

Because it prevents the spread of disease.

Paramedics shouldn't be hiding Hamas fighters.

What evidence do you have that she's Hamas?

It's a war....reporters risk their lives by getting too close.

They are being murdered in their homes.

Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war - Committee to Protect Journalists

Editor’s notes: The list below is CPJ’s most recent and preliminary account of journalist deaths in the war. Our database will not include all of these casualties until we have completed further investigations into the circumstances surrounding them. For more information, read our FAQ. The...

cpj.org

See above.

Not a mistake - done on purpose.

Why? Shouldn't those civilians be fleeing??

Read what you wrote. Israel's apartheid government prevents this from happening.

Don't hide Hamas fighters.

What evidence do you have that they were hiding Hamas fighters?

I wouldn't waste your time...you should inform yourself first.

I already have. You should follow your own advice.

That's not why this war started.

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.

Factually incorrect.

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/PDF.pdf

Btw...this is Gaza pre-war...

Wrong. This is Gaza prewar.

You may be able to fool some ignorant people who have no idea what a concentration camp is...but you won't fool any jews.

That's where I get most of my information.

You can start with Ilan Pappe's books- The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and The Biggest Prison on Earth.

Norman Finkelstein - Image and reality of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

You can watch them admit to it in the documentary Tantura.

And you can listen to this Holocaust survivor explaining how the Gaza genocide is the same.

 

[MartyF]

General Israeli playbook.

1. It didn't happen.
2. Ok, it did happen but the other guy did it.
3. Alright, we did it but it was an accident.
4. Why are we still talking about this? Are you an anti-semite?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you have a source?

How about 1st hand video evidence?

Plenty more where that came from...antisemitic scum treating Jewish students who have nothing to do with the conflict like 2nd class citizens. Real nazi tactics here.

Maybe we should ask the Likud party.

What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?

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Why? It's not the Likud party chanting it on these campuses. It's Hamas supporters. Let's educate you about what Hamas means by "from the river to the sea"...

Doctrine of Hamas

www.wilsoncenter.org

"December 2012, Khaled Mashaal, a leader in exile, reflected the traditional Hamas hardline, “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation. Liberation first, then statehood. Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” he said in a speech. “There will be no concession on any inch of the land. We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel… We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem.”

Perhaps they mean some sort of peaceful attempt to share the land with the Jewish people?

The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

I guess not.

Here . . . let me help you.

I already looked...and like you, I couldn't find anything.

If you had any evidence of your claims (like I produced above) you would have posted it.

Much like these protesters, you appear to be making things up about these colleges to justify the hatred of Jewish people.

Let Me Google That

Who's we?

You and me. I pointed out that Palestinians have more rights in Israel than Israelis do in Palestine. You didn't deny it because you know it's true.

Now...if you believe that Israel is still an apartheid state, then by the same logic, Palestine is a far worse apartheid state.

This is why I don't take your complaints about apartheid seriously....and neither should anyone else.

A foreign country in complete political control of the U.S. - You're happy about this?

Who said that?

It's just common sense....

Allying with Israel...
Pros- a regional partner who allows us to project power and influence throughout the entire Middle East, who trades with US favorably, and shares intelligence that is highly valued and otherwise difficult to obtain.
Cons- we have some antisemites who cry and whine about being allied with them.

Allying with Palestine....
Pros- .....there's literally no upside to allying with Palestine. They suck foreign aid from US which they use to arm terrorists.
Cons- imagine funding your enemies and all the problems that leads to...

That's why it doesn't matter who gets elected. People may feel strongly sympathetic to the people of Palestine before they get elected, but once they get elected, they have a duty to do what is best for the people of the US.