Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[boughtwithaprice]

As far as I can understand it, the Dormition of Mary (Orthodox) teaches that Mary died a natural death, was resurrected after three days, and then was assumed body and soul into heaven. The Assumption of Mary (Catholic) is an affirmation that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven, but does not get into the specifics, such as whether this occurred before or after her death.

It is true that the Orthodox view is more specific than the Catholic view, in offering details that the Catholic one does not. However, anyone who accepts the Dormition would inherently accept the Assumption, and anyone who accepts the Assumption can accept the Dormition. Heck, some use the two terms interchangeably.

Thus I do not see how these are "very different" and I especially do not see how they are in any way contradictory.

Very nice post. If you want to know more of the Catholic position on Mary, then I recommend the 4 volume set Mystical City of God by blessed Mary Ágreda this set has been approved by 5 Popes as consistent with Church teaching. In it we read that Our Lord offered to take Mary to heaven without death, but being the humble handmaid of the Lord that she is, she declined because her Lord and Our Lord suffered the pain of death Himself. She said she could do no less. After her death she was assumed body and soul into heaven. The four volume set is written by Mary of Agreda, but was dictated to her directly by our Lady and contains passages directly from Mary, much like the approved apparitions of Fatima, Guadalupe , and Lourdes but with more detail

 

[Clare73]

That is your Protestant definition and the error of Luther

Jesus is God and as such is of the nature of God

The Jews had an incomplete view of the nature of God, as John 3:17 says he that believes not is condemned already because he has not believed on the only Son of God


It’s so ironic that those that say that salvation is not or works are relying on a remote work during their lives. “I said the sinner’s prayer so I am saved”. I said “Jesus is Lord” and I believe that He rose from the dead, so I am saved. All that you say that is not of works is a work. Speaking, believing, confessing are all things we do and are works.

The Bible says over and over that it is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves, and the test to see if we have grace for salvation is good works. God does not owe us salvation by what we do.

He rewards obedience. He says we need to be born of water and the spirit, so all obedient souls are baptized by His command and example

He says that we are to deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Him. Obedient souls do that
We are told to mortify the deeds of the flesh, which includes pride, greed, sloth, gluttony, wrath, envy and lust. Obedient souls deny themselves and mortify the flesh

The sinners prayer is found no where in scripture, God saves us by grace and scripture tells us we follow Him by our works

2Peter2:10

10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

The Church teaches us to pray fast and give alms to train our bodies for virtue. We do not take a defeatist attitude and say oh our righteousness is as filthy rags so we can’t do anything boo hoo. That is an insult to God who said if you lack anything ask for it in prayer believing you will receive and you will get it. That includes righteous good works. If you don’t ask for them, you will not get them. If you listen to people that say you don’t need them, then you are as the foolish virgins with no oil, or the man that tried to get into the wedding feast with no wedding garment. You risk being shut out.

He says if you love me you will keep my commandments. We are supposed to be the salt of the earth, that means actually doing what Jesus taught us, not just muttering a few words and then telling God, see what I said? Now you have to save me.
No, scripture says that if we sin willfully after having learned the truth, we crucify Jesus afresh and bring Him to open shame, and there remains no sacrifice for sin. Penance is to be pursued and complacency to be avoided. We need to study His commands more and more so as to bring our minds and bodies under subjection to the truth.

Rev 3:20 teaches against imputed righteousness
Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if any man open the door I will come into him and sup with him and he with me.

Not imputed, rather infused

Your assertions were presented without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, are without Biblical merit.

 

[The Liturgist]

Your assertions were presented without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, are without Biblical merit.

He literally provided Biblical demonstrations…

 

[Clare73]

He literally provided Biblical demonstrations…

But in the NT faith is not a work (performance) as he states.
The NT opposes faith to works in salvation and justification.
Unless the NT is opposing faith to itself, faith is not a work.
True faith always has works, but they are two different things, and only one (faith, not faith's works) is involved in salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[JSRG]

Very nice post. If you want to know more of the Catholic position on Mary, then I recommend the 4 volume set Mystical City of God by blessed Mary Ágreda this set has been approved by 5 Popes as consistent with Church teaching. In it we read that Our Lord offered to take Mary to heaven without death, but being the humble handmaid of the Lord that she is, she declined because her Lord and Our Lord suffered the pain of death Himself. She said she could do no less. After her death she was assumed body and soul into heaven. The four volume set is written by Mary of Agreda, but was dictated to her directly by our Lady and contains passages directly from Mary, much like the approved apparitions of Fatima, Guadalupe , and Lourdes but with more detail

Perhaps you have a different interpretation of the phrase "the Catholic position on Mary" but I would normally interpret it as being the position of the church, which is not expressed by The Mystical City of God (which runs more than 2000 pages in total, a bit long to suggest someone to read to simply learn about the Catholic position!). That work may have been, as you say, approved as consistent with Church teaching--or perhaps better said, to not contradict Church teaching--but that is a different thing from actually being church teaching or the Catholic position on Mary. Indeed, any information someone claims to have received through visions is regarded as private revelation, and therefore nothing any Catholic must accept, (this applies even if said revelation is declared "approved"), save anything in it that is dogmatic independent of the vision. So while obviously the Assumption of Mary happening (her being ascended bodily and soul into heaven, whether before or after her death) is church teaching, more specific aspects of it, such as what you describe here, is not (even if it is consistent with--that is, not does not contradict--the church teaching). A better source for the Catholic position on Mary would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Your assertions were presented without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, are without Biblical merit.

Now that is a dishonest reply. I gave you the Biblical quotes, you just don’t believe them
Rev 3:20, 2peter2, Matthew

Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that do the will of my Father.


You don’t have to believe me. Who am I but dust? Do you really want to gamble with your soul when you appear before the judgement seat of Christ?

Revelation 3:1-5 says you can have your name blotted out of the book of life if you won’t do anything.

You have to ask God for humility and good works. If you dont, its like trying to reach heaven on a technicality.

Hebrews 2:2-3 says every transgression and disobedience will receive a just recompense. How do we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?


God tells us that we need obedience, penance and good works. He also says that if you lack anything then ask for it in prayer and you will receive. Ask and it will be given, knock and it will be opened to you. We cannot remain complacent and sit around and tell people that Jesus did everything so we do nothing and expect to be admitted to heaven. All good men repent for the kingdom of God is at hand
Ask for obedience, ask for penance, ask for good works, ask for virtue, patience, chastity, kindness, temperance, generosity, diligence, humility.
If we do not ask we will not receive because our flesh is weak and we cannot do it on our own

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Perhaps you have a different interpretation of the phrase "the Catholic position on Mary" but I would normally interpret it as being the position of the church, which is not expressed by The Mystical City of God (which runs more than 2000 pages in total, a bit long to suggest someone to read to simply learn about the Catholic position!). That work may have been, as you say, approved as consistent with Church teaching--or perhaps better said, to not contradict Church teaching--but that is a different thing from actually being church teaching or the Catholic position on Mary. Indeed, any information someone claims to have received through visions is regarded as private revelation, and therefore nothing any Catholic must accept, (this applies even if said revelation is declared "approved"), save anything in it that is dogmatic independent of the vision. So while obviously the Assumption of Mary happening (her being ascended bodily and soul into heaven, whether before or after her death) is church teaching, more specific aspects of it, such as what you describe here, is not (even if it is consistent with--that is, not does not contradict--the church teaching). A better source for the Catholic position on Mary would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The catechism of the Catholic Church says the Assumption is a singular participation in her Son’s resurrection. If she did not die, how did she resurrect?
A point to contemplate, but it is based on the Catechism, as you say, and not private revelation.

Peace be with you

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But in the NT faith is not a work (performance) as he states.
The NT opposes faith to works in salvation and justification.
Unless the NT is opposing faith to itself, faith is not a work.
True faith always has works, but they are two different things, and only one (faith, not faith's works) is involved in salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

The way you describe faith, it is made a work. True faith is not a work, but a gift of God and it is never alone. When we are born again we receive the theological virtues of faith hope and charity. The three abide but the greatest of these is charity 1Cor13.

Paul never taught faith alone. That word was added to the text by Luther to a verse in which it does not appear.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The word of God does not teach faith alone, so why did Luther and most Protestants ?
How does one come to this faith alone which is not taught by the word of God?

 

[chevyontheriver]

If she did not die, how did she resurrect?

We don’t know if she died and was assumed to heaven or did not die and was nonetheless assumed into heaven. The Catholic Church has to leave that question open. At least for now and the foreseeable future. As a result you and I are free to hold either opinion. For now at least.

 

[Clare73]

It’s so ironic that those that say that salvation is not of works are relying on a remote work during their lives. “I said the sinner’s prayer so I am saved”. I said “Jesus is Lord” and I believe that He rose from the dead, so I am saved. All that you say that is not of works is a work. Speaking, believing, confessing are all things we do and are works.

You are uninformed, or simply do not believe NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
The NT opposes works to faith, presents faith alone, apart from any of faith's works, as the only means of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
Please show the error in Eph 2:8-9. where faith is presented as not being a work, but rather is opposed to it.

The Bible says over and over that it is by grace we are saved and not of ourselves, and the test to see if we have grace for salvation is good works.

Agreed, good works are simply the proof of faith, but those good works do not save, only their faith saves (Eph 2:8-9).

God does not owe us salvation by what we do.

In NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, faith is not anything we do (perform), not a work (performance), faith is a disposition (belief).
Trust, fear, hope, love, hate, joy, faith, unbelief, etc. are not works, they are dispositions.

No, scripture says that if we sin willfully after having learned the truth, we crucify Jesus afresh and bring Him to open shame, and there remains no sacrifice for sin. Penance is to be pursued and complacency to be avoided. We need to study His commands more and more so as to bring our minds and bodies under subjection to the truth.

You misunderstand this Scripture, among many other things.
It is about irreparable apostasy, not about failure in obedience.

Rev 3:20 teaches against imputed righteousness
Behold I stand at the door and knock, and if any man open the door I will come into him and sup with him and he with me.

Rev 3:20 does not refer to imputed righteousness.
It refers to saving faith as the means to fellowship with God.
Likewise, imputed righteousness is from God through faith, and not by works, and is directly credited to one (Ro 3:21-22).

Not imputed, rather infused

There is no "infused" anywhere in the NT.

Paul never taught faith alone. That word was added to the text by Luther to a verse in which it does not appear.

Much of your understanding of Scripture is either half-baked or in total error.
If you wish to understand Scripture correctly and have it explained in the light of all Scripture, let me know.
Otherwise, you are too uninformed to have a Scriptural discussion with me..

 

[Markie Boy]

Not all protestants see faith and works as opposed each other. I am sad that so many do. As James says - Faith without works is dead. If we are to pass from death to life, we need a living faith to do so.

I don't use the term "Faith Alone", as it's not a complete picture of what we are to look like, it's a start point not the end goal. It's basically an over-reaction to the Roman system of religious duties, many of which don't have a Scriptural or even good early church basis, and persist to this day.

I believe just like Rome in the Middle Ages drifted too far, protestants today have done something similar in many cases.

But I do think Scripture is our sole infallible guide. I would rather keep working on things, coming back to that guide, than to be sent down rabbit trails by clergy that are not following Scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

I think these few teachings of Trent pretty much sums up the gospel and the teaching of His Church when it comes to grace, faith, and obedience.

I find it absurd that people say of other who fall into sin "well they never had saving faith in the first place". I guess some know the super secret sign of so called "saving faith".

Trent

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You are uninformed, or simply do not believe NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
The NT opposes works to faith, presents faith alone, apart from any of faith's works, as the only means of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
Please show the error in Eph 2:8-9. where faith is presented as not being a work, but rather is opposed to it.

Agreed, good works are simply the proof of faith, but those good works do not save, only their faith saves (Eph 2:8-9).

In NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, faith is not anything we do (perform), not a work (performance), faith is a disposition (belief).
Trust, fear, hope, love, hate, joy, faith, unbelief, etc. are not works, they are dispositions.

You misunderstand this Scripture, among many other things.
It is about irreparable apostasy, not about failure in obedience.

Rev 3:20 does not refer to imputed righteousness.
It refers to saving faith as the means to fellowship with God.
Likewise, imputed righteousness is from God through faith, and not by works, and is directly credited to one (Ro 3:21-22).

There is no "infused" anywhere in the NT.

Much of your understanding of Scripture is either half-baked or in total error.
If you wish to understand Scripture correctly and have it explained in the light of all Scripture, let me know.
Otherwise, you are too uninformed to have a Scriptural discussion with me..

It is an error that says faith saves. We are saved BY grace, through faith. Grace comes first, faith is the gift. You want to make scripture say what it does not

That is why Luther had to add the word alone next to faith to prove his point in Romans 3:28. The scripture does not say that we are saved by faith alone. Luther made it up in his own mind.

The only time that the words faith alone appear in scripture is in James 2:24. By works a man is justified and not by faith alone.

Grace enables the good works and with faith we believe. We do not earn salvation by faith. We receive faith as a gift after justification. We do not control the faith, we submit to it and Christ’s authority, so we obey Him.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law. This says that you have to be changed from the inside. Christ called the Pharisees white washed sepulchers, as they looked pretty on the outside, but inside they were rotten and dead. The Judahisers liked to make a show. We are circumcised, we don’t eat pork, oh look what we did, we are saved. Wrong, salvation is not a mercantile or legal transaction. It is not one and done and it does not come from ourselves
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If you are listening to a man that changed the word of God to his own purpose and called it faith, do you really have the faith that scripture speaks of?
Hearing comes by the word of God, not the word of Luther

 

[Clare73]

It is an error that says faith saves. We are saved BY grace, through faith. Grace comes first, faith is the gift.

Agreed. . .but the main controversy, in the context of which my comment is made, is in regard to faith vs. works, not faith vs. grace.

 

[Markie Boy]

I think if we follow Scripture - our initial salvation is by faith. From there we are to keep our faith, to abide in him, to have a living faith. We are not saved by our works, but a living faith will produce good fruit.

So faith alone is true for initial salvation, but after that there should be fruit. Would anyone actually argue that faith with no fruit should be the model?

 

[concretecamper]

So there is initial salvation? I guess there is secondary salvation, tertiary salvation, where does it end?

 

[Fidelibus]

Much of your understanding of Scripture is either half-baked or in total error.

According to who?

If you wish to understand Scripture correctly and have it explained in the light of all Scripture, let me know.

By what authority do you believe your "personal" interpretation of Scripture is correct and this posters understanding is in error? Do you believe yourself and your interpretation of scripture to be infallible?

Otherwise, you are too uninformed to have a Scriptural discussion with me.

Wow!! It's hard to believe you actually posted this.

I will pray for you.


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I think if we follow Scripture - our initial salvation is by faith. From there we are to keep our faith, to abide in him, to have a living faith. We are not saved by our works, but a living faith will produce good fruit.

So faith alone is true for initial salvation, but after that there should be fruit. Would anyone actually argue that faith with no fruit should be the model?

No, faith without fruit is dead, but your error is that we are saved BY faith. Wrong!
We are saved BY grace, Through faith. It is not of yourselves:

People view faith as an act of the intellect. We accept Jesus as savior. We speak Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead.

Faith is the gift, not the cause. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Lots of people hear the Gospel, and not everyone believes? Why? Have we not made sense? Did we not use perfect logic? Why do we believe? Are we better than them? No

Salvation is an act of God, not the human intellect. No one comes to Jesus except the Father draw him. Why do we believe and others not? I tell you again we are not better

We hear the Gospel as does everyone and the preaching shows us our depravity and the free will God gave us allows us to decide whether to ask for help or not. Some say I am too much of a sinner and cannot try, so they leave, some like the idea and expect God to make them feel good the way sin did, when the Christian life is hard they go back to the sin that made them feel good, others try to hold onto the world and God at the same time, but the Gospel is choked out of them

Jesus tells us the true path to life. Deny yourself and take up your cross. It is a path of poverty, contempt, and humility, but when we take that path, God gives us the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Charity. It is not Faith alone, as 1Cor13 says. I can have faith to move mountains and if I have not Charity I am nothing. James says Faith without works is dead. 1cor13 says these three remain but the greatest of these is Charity.

Charity is love of God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul, FIRST then once we do that we can love our neighbor as ourselves.

In salvation we have the three working together, Faith , Hope , and Charity

When we have Charity we search the commandments and look for ways to obey them, we study history and submit ourselves to those that came before us and were wiser than we.

Hope has us believe that Jesus will complete the work begun in us and excited us for further obedience as we obtain virtue

Charity does not allow faith to become arrogant or presumptuous. We love God and see no matter how far we have come, we have so much further to go. We cry as the man did to Jesus. I believe! Help thou my unbelief!

Satan offers the path of wealth, vain glory and pride. We see his deception in the prosperity gospel, the misguided thinking that we are better if we do might works that everyone recognizes, or we want everyone to be in awe of us and think that we are better then them

A true Christian can use money but is content in where God has brought him. The Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord
We despise our flesh and rejoice when we are treated with contempt. To learn humility we must rejoice in humiliation. In humility we submit to legitimate authority and do not seek to ascert command everywhere we go, we rather seek obedience which is greater than sacrifice

We can always ask ourselves. Are we on the right path? Is it poverty, contempt and humility or are we one the path of wealth, vain glory and pride ? That is your test for salvation and the road to life. It is straight and narrow and will be hard if we did it on our own, but we have the love of the eternal God who helps us on the way everytime we ask, but we have to ask for it to be given, knock for it to be opened

We do not just run around and say Lord, Lord and expect to get into heaven. Jesus already told us that would not happen.

 

[Markie Boy]

No, faith without fruit is dead, but your error is that we are saved BY faith. Wrong!
We are saved BY grace, Through faith. It is not of yourselves:

People view faith as an act of the intellect. We accept Jesus as savior. We speak Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts God raised Him from the dead.

Faith is the gift, not the cause. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Lots of people hear the Gospel, and not everyone believes? Why? Have we not made sense? Did we not use perfect logic? Why do we believe? Are we better than them? No

Salvation is an act of God, not the human intellect. No one comes to Jesus except the Father draw him. Why do we believe and others not? I tell you again we are not better

We hear the Gospel as does everyone and the preaching shows us our depravity and the free will God gave us allows us to decide whether to ask for help or not. Some say I am too much of a sinner and cannot try, so they leave, some like the idea and expect God to make them feel good the way sin did, when the Christian life is hard they go back to the sin that made them feel good, others try to hold onto the world and God at the same time, but the Gospel is choked out of them

Jesus tells us the true path to life. Deny yourself and take up your cross. It is a path of poverty, contempt, and humility, but when we take that path, God gives us the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Charity. It is not Faith alone, as 1Cor13 says. I can have faith to move mountains and if I have not Charity I am nothing. James says Faith without works is dead. 1cor13 says these three remain but the greatest of these is Charity.

Charity is love of God with your whole heart whole mind and whole soul, FIRST then once we do that we can love our neighbor as ourselves.

In salvation we have the three working together, Faith , Hope , and Charity

When we have Charity we search the commandments and look for ways to obey them, we study history and submit ourselves to those that came before us and were wiser than we.

Hope has us believe that Jesus will complete the work begun in us and excited us for further obedience as we obtain virtue

Charity does not allow faith to become arrogant or presumptuous. We love God and see no matter how far we have come, we have so much further to go. We cry as the man did to Jesus. I believe! Help thou my unbelief!

Satan offers the path of wealth, vain glory and pride. We see his deception in the prosperity gospel, the misguided thinking that we are better if we do might works that everyone recognizes, or we want everyone to be in awe of us and think that we are better then them

A true Christian can use money but is content in where God has brought him. The Lord gives, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord
We despise our flesh and rejoice when we are treated with contempt. To learn humility we must rejoice in humiliation. In humility we submit to legitimate authority and do not seek to ascert command everywhere we go, we rather seek obedience which is greater than sacrifice

We can always ask ourselves. Are we on the right path? Is it poverty, contempt and humility or are we one the path of wealth, vain glory and pride ? That is your test for salvation and the road to life. It is straight and narrow and will be hard if we did it on our own, but we have the love of the eternal God who helps us on the way everytime we ask, but we have to ask for it to be given, knock for it to be opened

We do not just run around and say Lord, Lord and expect to get into heaven. Jesus already told us that would not happen.

I agree - I was just typing too fast - I apologize. We are saved by Grace, through Faith, unto good works. It's as though Faith gives us access to God's grace. It's all Him!

 

[Valletta]

The catechism of the Catholic Church says the Assumption is a singular participation in her Son’s resurrection. If she did not die, how did she resurrect?
A point to contemplate, but it is based on the Catechism, as you say, and not private revelation.

Peace be with you

You should provide the actual quotation from the Catechism rather than your own rendition so that we all may know what the Catholic Church teaches. Mary was "assumed" into Heaven, the Catechism does not say she was resurrected. In Heaven Mary participates in "the glory" of her Son's resurrection.