Election's Historicity (Doctrinal Counter Perspective)

[Hammster]

One post response with the word Whosoever. (Whoever) This is forensic evidence, within scripture... found within 50 verses about what the word "Whoever" means. Will a man determined to empty the cross of it's power believe what he forensically sees? No. He will quibble with one word in scripture to shoehorn human doctrine into ONE Single word. If that man would do this with one single word, how much more terrible would he be with entire passages of scripture?

Matthew 1:17 Adj-NFP
GRK: Πᾶσαι οὖν αἱ
NAS: So all the generations from Abraham
KJV: So all the generations from
INT: all Therefore the
Matthew 2:3 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἐταράχθη καὶ πᾶσα Ἰεροσόλυμα μετ'
NAS: [this], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem
KJV: and all Jerusalem
INT: he was troubled and all Jerusalem with
Matthew 2:4 Adj-AMP
GRK: καὶ συναγαγὼν πάντας τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς
NAS: Gathering together all the chief priests
KJV: when he had gathered all the chief priests
INT: And having gathered together all the chief priests
Matthew 2:16 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἀποστείλας ἀνεῖλεν πάντας τοὺς παῖδας
NAS: and slew all the male children
KJV: and slew all the children
INT: having sent forth he put to death all the boys
Matthew 2:16 Adj-DNP
GRK: καὶ ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ὁρίοις
NAS: who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity,
KJV: and in all the coasts thereof,
INT: and in all the vicinity
Matthew 3:5 Adj-NFS
GRK: Ἰεροσόλυμα καὶ πᾶσα ἡ Ἰουδαία
NAS: was going out to him, and all Judea
KJV: Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and
INT: Jerusalem and all Judea
Matthew 3:5 Adj-NFS
GRK: Ἰουδαία καὶ πᾶσα ἡ περίχωρος
NAS: Judea and all the district around
KJV: and all the region round about
INT: Judea and all the region around
Matthew 3:10 Adj-NNS
GRK: δένδρων κεῖται πᾶν οὖν δένδρον
NAS: therefore every tree
KJV: therefore every tree
INT: trees is applied every Therefore tree
Matthew 3:15 Adj-AFS
GRK: ἡμῖν πληρῶσαι πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην τότε
NAS: for us to fulfill all righteousness.
KJV: us to fulfil all righteousness. Then
INT: to us to fulfill all righteousness Then
Matthew 4:4 Adj-DNS
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ
NAS: ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD
KJV: but by every word that proceedeth
INT: but by every word coming out
Matthew 4:8 Adj-AFP
GRK: δείκνυσιν αὐτῷ πάσας τὰς βασιλείας
NAS: and showed Him all the kingdoms
KJV: him all the kingdoms
INT: shows to him all the kingdoms
Matthew 4:9 Adj-ANP
GRK: Ταῦτά σοι πάντα δώσω ἐὰν
NAS: and he said to Him, All these things
KJV: unto him, All these things
INT: These things to you all will I give if
Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: καὶ θεραπεύων πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ
NAS: and healing every kind
KJV: and healing all manner of sickness and
INT: and healing every disease and
Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν ἐν
NAS: every kind of disease
KJV: and all manner of disease
INT: disease and every sickness among
Matthew 4:24 Adj-AMP
GRK: προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς
NAS: and they brought to Him all who were ill,
KJV: they brought unto him all sick people
INT: they brought to him all sick
Matthew 5:11 Adj-ANS
GRK: καὶ εἴπωσιν πᾶν πονηρὸν καθ'
NAS: say all kinds of evil
KJV: shall say all manner of evil
INT: and shall say all kinds of evil against
Matthew 5:15 Adj-DMP
GRK: καὶ λάμπει πᾶσιν τοῖς ἐν
NAS: and it gives light to all who are in the house.
KJV: it giveth light unto all that are in
INT: and it shines for all who [are] in
Matthew 5:18 Adj-NNP
GRK: ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται
NAS: until all is accomplished.
KJV: the law, till all be fulfilled.
INT: until anyhow all come to pass
Matthew 5:22 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος
NAS: But I say to you that everyone who is angry
KJV: That whosoever is angry
INT: to you that every one who is angry with
Matthew 5:28 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who looks
KJV: That whosoever looketh
INT: to you that every one that looks upon
Matthew 5:32 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ἀπολύων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who divorces
INT: to you that everyone who shall divorce
Matthew 6:29 Adj-DFS
GRK: Σολομὼν ἐν πάσῃ τῇ δόξῃ
NAS: Solomon in all his glory
KJV: Solomon in all his glory
INT: Solomon in all the glory
Matthew 6:32 Adj-ANP
GRK: πάντα γὰρ ταῦτα
NAS: eagerly seek all these things;
KJV: after all these things
INT: all indeed these things
Matthew 6:33 Adj-NNP
GRK: καὶ ταῦτα πάντα προστεθήσεται ὑμῖν
NAS: and His righteousness, and all these things
KJV: and all these things
INT: and these things all will be added to you
Matthew 7:8 Adj-NMS
GRK: πᾶς γὰρ ὁ
NAS: For everyone who asks receives,
KJV: For every one that asketh receiveth;
INT: everyone indeed who
Matthew 7:12 Adj-ANP
GRK: Πάντα οὖν ὅσα
NAS: In everything, therefore, treat
KJV: Therefore all things whatsoever
INT: All things therefore as many as
Matthew 7:17 Adj-NNS
GRK: οὕτως πᾶν δένδρον ἀγαθὸν
NAS: So every good tree
KJV: Even so every good tree
INT: So every tree good
Matthew 7:19 Adj-NNS
GRK: πᾶν δένδρον μὴ
NAS: Every tree that does not bear
KJV: Every tree that bringeth
INT: Every tree not
Matthew 7:21 Adj-NMS
GRK: Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων
NAS: Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord,
KJV: Not every one that saith unto me,
INT: Not everyone who says
Matthew 7:24 Adj-NMS
GRK: Πᾶς οὖν ὅστις
NAS: Therefore everyone who hears
KJV: Therefore whosoever heareth these
INT: Every one therefore whoever
Matthew 7:26 Adj-NMS
GRK: Καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων
NAS: Everyone who hears these
KJV: And every one that heareth these
INT: and everyone who hears
Matthew 8:16 Adj-AMP
GRK: λόγῳ καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς
NAS: and healed all who were ill.
KJV: and healed all that were sick:
INT: by a word and all who sick

Let me see if I understand. You are saying that because I don’t “all” has just one meaning, that I am wrongly handling scripture?

 

[Clare73]

Both @Clare73 and Calvin are in disagreement with Paul on that issue as per all major English translations of 1 Timothy 2:4, God desires all people to be saved. Also in all major English translations of 1 Timothy 4:10, God is the Savior of all people. God is not the Savior of people He does not desire to save. Jesus is not like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Good Samaritan who has no heart for the perishing. From scripture, we know that our God who is Love (1 John 4:8) sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that God forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. Many are not saved because God leaves some decision making with people. If God did not, He would be unjust to judge us for doing what we could not avoid.

We are born judged, objects of wrath by our nature (Eph 2:3), unregenerate (spiritual death), separated from and enemies of God (Ro 5:10).
We could not avoid that.

 

[John Mullally]

Feel free to exegete Ro 9 in agreement with its context and all Scripture.

Here is a Professor who is a Greek scholar and was former Calvinist doing that for you.

Let me know where you disagree.

 

[Grip Docility]

Let me see if I understand. You are saying that because I don’t believe that “all” has just one meaning, that I am wrongly handling scripture?

One would not be allowed to say that on Christian Forums. What does Paul say about this? I think Paul would get in trouble if he said it. I only desire that scripture is handled correctly. Let the reader decide what is and what isn't proper Exegesis in dialogue because... I willingly gave my "Judgment" and "Personal Authority to Judge" away to a Jewish Carpenter that really upset some very Righteous, Scripturally Wise, good ole boys. What do I know?

 

[Clare73]

Context... with my Bible Commentary.. aka... The Bible.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (not wise to "pas" over context, here.)
John 16:9 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me;

Paul and Jesus know what they are talking about, more than a French Theosophist, right?

I would say that he knows more than all fallen mankind on the subject, right?

Did you miss "might," made evident in that he does not (Jn 3:18)?

Paul is saying that all are concluded in unbelief, so that only those of faith in Jesus Christ receive mercy.

 

[Clare73]

Here is a Professor who is a Greek scholar and was former Calvinist doing that for you.

Let me know where you disagree.

Been there, done that. . .got the T-shirt.

 

[Grip Docility]

Here is a Professor who is a Greek scholar and was former Calvinist doing that for you.

Let me know where you disagree.

What a scripturally illiterate guy! He used the entire bible, including the actual scriptures from the old testament to exegete! Can you believe the nerve of that guy!

 

[John Mullally]

We are born judged, objects of wrath by our nature (Eph 2:3), unregenerate (spiritual death), separated from and enemies of God (Ro 5:10).
We could not avoid that.

Cheer up! Paul never mentions any of that negative material in his Epistles without showing the way out.

 

[Grip Docility]

I would say that he knows more than all fallen mankind on the subject, right?

Did you miss "might," made evident in that he does not (Jn 3:18)?

Paul is saying that all are concluded in unbelief, so that only those of faith in Jesus Christ receive mercy.

I would say that to pas over what all means in the scriptures that I posted, would nullify the contract of God with Mankind that Saves mankind. That seems like a bad idea, but who am I? I'm just an illiterate bumpkin.

 

[John Mullally]

Been there, done that. . .got the T-shirt.

Well then don't be asking others to exegete Romans 9.

 

[Grip Docility]

Cheer up! Paul never mentions any of that negative material in his Epistles without showing the way out.

Hope for the Hopeless

John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

Follows.... Active Verb...... Questions... Hmmmm... John 6:66

 

[Clare73]

I would say that to pas over what all means in the scriptures that I posted, would nullify the contract of God with Mankind that Saves mankind. That seems like a bad idea, but who am I? I'm just an illiterate bumpkin.

STOP!

You questioned (" ? ") my statement, "I don''t do determinism,"
which I took to mean that you were puzzled by the word "do,"
which I explained as it being a take-off on a somewhat illiterate person,
which you evidently thought was referring to you. . .

NO!

You are one of the most literate people I know.

I often use "do" incorrectly just for fun, and it sums up so much activity in one word. . .it's a form of slang.

 

[Clare73]

Well then don't be asking others to exegete Romans 9.

Did I actually ask. . .or did I suggest it as demonstration of your assertion?

 

[Hammster]

One would not be allowed to say that on Christian Forums. What does Paul say about this? I think Paul would get in trouble if he said it. I only desire that scripture is handled correctly. Let the reader decide what is and what isn't proper Exegesis in dialogue because... I willingly gave my "Judgment" and "Personal Authority to Judge" away to a Jewish Carpenter that really upset some very Righteous, Scripturally Wise, good ole boys. What do I know?

Let me ask this non rule violating question. Does pas have more than one meaning in the New Testament?

 

[Grip Docility]

STOP!

You questioned (" ? ") my statement, "I don''t do determinism,"
which I took to mean that you were puzzled by the word "do,"
which I explained as it being a take-off on a somewhat illiterate person,
which you evidently thought was referring to you. . .

NO!

You are one of the most literate people I know.

I often use "do" incorrectly just for fun, and it sums up so much activity in one word. . .it's a form of slang.

You may be talking to a very experienced and seasoned agent of the gospel, who employs Paul's references to being foolish all too eagerly.

I have had to reduce my pleasant demeanor, because "some" individuals "may" or "may" not have issue with it to the point of taking CF ... I signed a gag order. Disregard my nonsense.

I still Love you Sibling in Jesus. You know that I am a mega stinker. Take heart and know that many times, my tongue is fastened to my cheek when typing.... trying to keep my profile low, but my humor in jovial spirits. All is well.

To say I haven't given you challenging dialogue, would be a lie. I stand more guilty than any that have ever loaded up forums. Scout's honor.

 

[Grip Docility]

You seem to be deflecting. I’ll try again. If you refuse to answer, I’ll bow out.

Does pas have more than one meaning in the New Testament?

You seem to be deflecting. I’ll try again. If you refuse to answer, I’ll bow out.

Does elohim have more than one meaning in the Old Testament?

 

[Hammster]

You seem to be deflecting. I’ll try again. If you refuse to answer, I’ll bow out.

Does elohim have more than one meaning in the Old Testament?

Bye.

 

[Grip Docility]

Bye.

I genuinely appreciate your stimulating dialogue and challenging questions on this Opening Post.

All Love to you in the Name of our Omnibenevolent, Merciful, Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is the King of Humility and cause of Trembling to the Hypocrite, because, Praise His Name, there is utterly no Hypocrisy within Him.

 

[Clare73]

You may be talking to a very experienced and seasoned agent of the gospel, who employs Paul's references to being foolish all too eagerly.

It's not the gospel I have issue with, it is your interpretation of prophetic riddles--not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)--which contradicts NT teaching.

I have had to reduce my pleasant demeanor, because "some" individuals "may" or "may" not have issue with it to the point of taking CF ... I signed a gag order. Disregard my nonsense.

I still Love you Sibling in Jesus. You know that I am a mega stinker. Take heart and know that many times, my tongue is fastened to my cheek when typing.... trying to keep my profile low, but my humor in jovial spirits. All is well.

To say I haven't given you challenging dialogue, would be a lie. I stand more guilty than any that have ever loaded up forums. Scout's honor.

I don't see you to be malevolent as it seems some others do. . .

But then, I would be the last one to see it. . .or maybe you just didn't present it to me.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

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