Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?


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zippy2006

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I recently watched a debate on Sola Scriptura, which admittedly wasn't very good. That said, the argument Jimmy Akin gave is succinct and incisive:

P1. Sola Scriptura says that all doctrines must be derivable from Scripture.​
P2. Sola Scriptura is a doctrine.​
C1. Therefore, Sola Scriptura must be derivable from Scripture.​
P3. But Sola Scriptura is not derivable from Scripture.​
C2. Therefore, Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, and hence false.​

What do you think?

For those who defend Sola Scriptura, which of the three premises of the argument would you attack and why?

I would really like for this to be a thread about this particular argument, so I will redirect or ignore responses that do not address it. That said, inevitably users will post other arguments for or against Sola Scriptura and derail the thread until the cows come home. Oh well!
 

zippy2006

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Let me address a few of the responses that have been offered so far:

  • "The Other Paul": Deuteronomy 8:3 proves Sola Scriptura. (Original Debate) {Attacking P3}
  • Jimmy Akin: I agree that man lives by the word of God, but this includes God's word as passed down in writing and in oral tradition. Even in the Old Testament itself the word of God was passed on authoritatively by oral tradition.

  • "The Other Paul": We can no longer discern which doctrines really came from the Apostles, so we must default to Scripture. (Original Debate) {Attacking P1}
  • Jimmy Akin: This is an argument from history, not from Scripture. Further, the premise that apostolic doctrine is unknowable is not granted, and itself seems to presuppose Sola Scriptura.

  • Jordan B. Cooper: Scripture presents itself as God-breathed, and is therefore unique and authoritative (2 Timothy 3:16). We are never told that anything else is God-breathed. The burden of proof is on non-Protestants to show that something else is God-breathed. (YouTube video)
  • Response: To say that one thing is God-breathed does not imply that other things are not God-breathed. When 2 Tim 3:16 was written there were Apostles speaking God-breathed words, some of which were not yet written down, and some of which were never written down. Further, Cooper's claim about the burden of proof presupposes Sola Scriptura, and thus begs the question. Prima facie, we have no reason to believe that other things are not God-breathed, and therefore no reason to believe Sola Scriptura. If someone proved that something else were God-breathed then Sola Scriptura would be falsified, but independently of such a possibility Sola Scriptura is also falsified by being self-refuting. Finally, Sola Scriptura needs to exclude not only alternative inspired sources, but also alternative authoritative/infallible sources.

  • Gavin Ortlund: "The scripture claims for itself to be theopneustos, to be God-breathed, to be unbreakable, to be Spirit-carried (2 Peter 1:20-21), and I don't believe that I have any good reason--from Scripture or from any other source--to believe that that kind of divine authority is present in any other location. It seems to me that that processing of reasoning itself would be sufficient to make you believe in Sola Scriptura." (YouTube video)
  • Response: This is the same argument that Jordan Cooper makes, addressed above.

  • New Kingdom Media: "So in Matthew 15 Jesus says that we cannot break the commandments of God for the sake of human tradition or teach as doctrines the commandments of men. So our Lord Jesus Christ there is giving us this idea that the only infallible authority, the only infallible teaching, is the word of God, not the words of men who are of course all fallible--that makes sense--and I think everyone agrees with that anyway so the only infallible teaching, the only infallible words are the words that come out of the mouth of God who's the basis of Truth itself..." "...Scripture, which is God's infallible word--God's divinely breathed-out word--never tells us where else we can go to hear God's voice..." "So if someone wants to claim that [something else] is God's divinely breathed out words, the burden of proof is on them to prove that. That's essentially the argument I'm making for Sola Scriptura." (YouTube video)
  • Response: This is a combination of the second argument from "The Other Paul," and Jordan Cooper's argument, which are answered above.

--------------------------------

It seems like Jordan Cooper's argument is the one that everyone keeps going back to. The basic problem with this argument is that it does not get you all the way to Sola Scriptura. Instead it gets you to the idea that Scripture is the highest-ranking source (whether or not other sources also achieve this level). But this is not sufficient to arrive at the "sola" part. It only tells us that Scripture is primary, not that it is 'alone'. Note that Catholics do not hold that other sources achieve the same rank as Scripture, but rather that tradition and the magisterium are authoritative and, in some cases, infallible.

Technically Cooper's argument reduces to an argument from ignorance:

1. Scripture is X.​
2. We have no reason to believe that anything else is X.​
3. Therefore, Scripture alone is X.​

I hesitate to say exactly what "X" is, but we need to substitute the right X if we are to arrive at Sola Scriptura. Generally I would want to use an X of 'infallible', but we might also use 'authoritative', or even, if we want to prescind from the historical disputes, 'inspired' (for Catholics agree that Scripture is uniquely inspired, but the basis for this belief must be tradition rather than Scripture itself, since Scripture does not speak to the question).

Regardless, the problem is that this is an argument from ignorance, and premise (2) surely does not come from Scripture.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I recently watched a debate on Sola Scriptura, which admittedly wasn't very good. That said, the argument Jimmy Akin gave is succinct and incisive:

P1. Sola Scriptura says that all doctrines must be derivable from Scripture.​
P2. Sola Scriptura is a doctrine.​
C1. Therefore, Sola Scriptura must be derivable from Scripture.​
P3. But Sola Scriptura is not derivable from Scripture.​
C2. Therefore, Sola Scriptura is self-refuting, and hence false.​

What do you think?

For those who defend Sola Scriptura, which of the three premises of the argument would you attack and why?

I would really like for this to be a thread about this particular argument, so I will redirect or ignore responses that do not address it. That said, inevitably users will post other arguments for or against Sola Scriptura and derail the thread until the cows come home. Oh well!

The scripture is how all things must be tested:

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

And if it goes against scripture, we are warned these is no light- meaning it is not coming from God.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God said His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and is the only path that leads us to the narrow gate Jesus told us to take. Matthew 7:13-14

There is a great deceiver who deceives the whole world- so the way we shield ourselves is through God's Word. which we are told to not add to. Proverbs 30:5-6 Deut 4:2
 
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DragonFox91

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The scripture is how all things must be tested:

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

And if it goes against scripture, we are warned these is no light- meaning it is not coming from God.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God said His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and is the only path that leads us to the narrow gate Jesus told us to take. Matthew 7:13-14

There is a great deceiver who deceives the whole world- so the way we shield ourselves is through God's Word. which we are told to not add to. Proverbs 30:5-6 Deut 4:2
Right, but they believe the Church is the continued reincarnation of Jesus so their Word is His. So when they see 'his word' in the Bible, they interpret that to mean 'the Church's (traditions) / word' as well b/c it's more or less the same thing, to them.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Right, but they believe the Church is the continued reincarnation of Jesus so their Word is His. So when they see 'his word' in the Bible, they extend that to mean 'the Church's (traditions) / word.'
True, they do, but my trust is in the scriptures. When God said do not add or subtract from My commandments and My Word Deut 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6 we either Trust Him or trust man. I trust Him! No man can improve on God's Word and its sad anyone would want to try after these and other warnings in scripture.
 
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zippy2006

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The scripture is how all things must be tested
Thank you for your response. It seems that you have chosen to attack premise (3). I think that is a basic Protestant approach to the question.

Where does Scripture tell us that all things must be tested by Scripture?

And if it goes against scripture, we are warned these is no light- meaning it is not coming from God.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Supposing we accept the KJV translation that you give, two questions immediately arise: 1) Does "law and testimony" refer only to written Scripture, and 2) Does speaking "according to this word" mean that everything one speaks must come from Scripture, or rather that one must not speak contrary to Scripture (which is what Isaiah is rebuking them for)?

God said His Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and is the only path that leads us to the narrow gate Jesus told us to take. Matthew 7:13-14
It is false to claim that according to Psalm 119 God's word is a light to "the only path that leads us to the narrow gate."


This is an interesting post, but I don't believe it gets us to the 'sola' portion of Sola Scriptura. It does, however, highlight the importance and necessity of Scripture.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Is Sola Scriptura actually a doctrine?

I would argue that Sola Scriptura is a method for testing whether a doctrine is legitimate or not and not a doctrine in and of itself.
 
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zippy2006

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When God said do not add or subtract from My commandments and My Word Deut 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6 we either Trust Him or trust man. I trust Him! No man can improve on God's Word and its sad anyone would want to try after these and other warnings in scripture.
If the OP is correct then Protestants add to God's word by inserting a new word, "By Scripture alone." This word is not God's; it is man's.
 
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zippy2006

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Is Sola Scriptura actually a doctrine?

I would argue that Sola Scriptura is a method for testing whether a doctrine is legitimate or not and not a doctrine in and of itself.
So then you attack premise (2).

Is Sola Scriptura taught? Must it be believed? Is it something that is handed on in Protestant circles? If so, then in what sense is it not a doctrine?

Note that methods can be doctrines. Jesus tells his disciples not to follow the example of the Pharisees. This is a method, but it would also be a doctrine according to the sense of the OP. Just because something is a method does not mean it is not a doctrine.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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If the OP is correct then Protestants add to God's word by inserting a new word, "By Scripture alone." This word is not God's; it is man's.
Proverbs 30"5 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

Seems pretty clear. Scripture alone is stating exactly this.
 
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zippy2006

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It is worth considering the fact that non-Christians who have exposure to Protestantism may well assume that premise (3) is false. If you understand Protestant culture but don't know much about the Bible, you would just assume that premise (3) is false. Similarly, many Protestants--especially those who are younger--may well assume that premise (3) is false, and that Sola Scriptura really does come from the Bible. Thus the opposite of premise (3) really does seem to be a common Protestant belief, at least in an implicit way.

P3. But Sola Scriptura is not derivable from Scripture.​
 
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zippy2006

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Proverbs 30"5 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

Seems pretty clear. Scripture alone is stating exactly this.
  • Zippy: Protestants add to God's words.
  • SabbathBlessings: Scripture says we should not add to God's words.
You are accusing yourself. Your words testify against yourself.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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  • Zippy: Protestants add to God's words
  • SabbathBlessings: Scripture says we should not add to God's words.
You are accusing yourself. Your words testify against yourself.

I guess that's one way to change the subject. If you have something you want to share, please do so.
 
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zippy2006

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Nice diversion!

I guess that's one way to change the subject, start accusing the person you don't agree with. If you have proof of something, then share otherwise it means nothing.
It's not a diversion, it's just a factual representation of part of our exchange. In this post I said that Protestants add a new word, "Sola Scriptura" (hence premise 3). You responded by saying that we should not add new words. So the condemnations you issued in that post fall upon yourself.

I would suggest reading my posts more carefully. It seems that you failed entirely to read the one to which you tried to respond.
 
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grasping the after wind

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So then you attack premise (2).

Is Sola Scriptura taught? Must it be believed? Is it something that is handed on in Protestant circles? If so, then in what sense is it not a doctrine?

Note that methods can be doctrines. Jesus tells his disciples not to follow the example of the Pharisees. This is a method, but it would also be a doctrine according to the sense of the OP. Just because something is a method does not mean it is not a doctrine.
Let us definite the word doctrine so we are sure we are talking about the same thing. Here is the definition I would use. Also the word dogma

doc·trine
[ˈdäktrən]

NOUN
  1. a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group:



    dog·ma
    [ˈdôɡmə]

    NOUN
    1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

    I would suggest that Sola Scriptura is dogma, not doctrine. That according to Luther, or whatever authority one might allude to that agrees with Luther on this, it is incontrovertibly true that if a doctrine is not based upon scripture, it cannot be said to be authoritatively correct and therefore not necessary. Doctrine is a belief; Sola Scripture is a principle laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
 
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sandman

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Let me address a few of the responses that have been offered so far:

  • "The Other Paul": Deuteronomy 8:3 proves Sola Scriptura. (Original Debate) {Attacking P3}
  • Jimmy Akin: I agree that man lives by the word of God, but this includes God's word as passed down in writing and in oral tradition. Even in the Old Testament itself the word of God was passed on authoritatively by oral tradition.

  • "The Other Paul": We can no longer discern which doctrines really came from the Apostles, so we must default to Scripture. (Original Debate) {Attacking P1}
  • Jimmy Akin: This is an argument from history, not from Scripture. Further, the premise that apostolic doctrine is unknowable is not granted, and itself seems to presuppose Sola Scriptura.

  • Jordan B. Cooper: Scripture presents itself as God-breathed, and is therefore unique and authoritative (2 Timothy 3:16). We are never told that anything else is God-breathed. The burden of proof is on non-Protestants to show that something else is God-breathed. (YouTube video)
  • Response: To say that one thing is God-breathed does not imply that other things are not God-breathed. When 2 Tim 3:16 was written there were Apostles speaking God-breathed words, some of which were not yet written down, and some of which were never written down. Further, Cooper's claim about the burden of proof presupposes Sola Scriptura, and thus begs the question. Prima facie, we have no reason to believe that other things are not God-breathed, and therefore no reason to believe Sola Scriptura. If someone proved that something else were God-breathed then Sola Scriptura would be falsified, but independently of such a possibility Sola Scriptura is also falsified by being self-refuting. Finally, Sola Scriptura needs to exclude not only alternative inspired sources, but also alternative authoritative/infallible sources.

  • Gavin Ortlund: "The scripture claims for itself to be theopneustos, to be God-breathed, to be unbreakable, to be Spirit-carried (2 Peter 1:20-21), and I don't believe that I have any good reason--from Scripture or from any other source--to believe that that kind of divine authority is present in any other location. It seems to me that that processing of reasoning itself would be sufficient to make you believe in Sola Scriptura." (YouTube video)
  • Response: This is the same argument that Jordan Cooper makes, addressed above.

  • New Kingdom Media: "So in Matthew 15 Jesus says that we cannot break the commandments of God for the sake of human tradition or teach as doctrines the commandments of men. So our Lord Jesus Christ there is giving us this idea that the only infallible authority, the only infallible teaching, is the word of God, not the words of men who are of course all fallible--that makes sense--and I think everyone agrees with that anyway so the only infallible teaching, the only infallible words are the words that come out of the mouth of God who's the basis of Truth itself..." "...Scripture, which is God's infallible word--God's divinely breathed-out word--never tells us where else we can go to hear God's voice..." "So if someone wants to claim that [something else] is God's divinely breathed out words, the burden of proof is on them to prove that. That's essentially the argument I'm making for Sola Scriptura." (YouTube video)
  • Response: This is a combination of the second argument from "The Other Paul," and Jordan Cooper's argument, which are answered above.

--------------------------------

It seems like Jordan Cooper's argument is the one that everyone keeps going back to. The basic problem with this argument is that it does not get you all the way to Sola Scriptura. Instead it gets you to the idea that Scripture is the highest-ranking source (whether or not other sources also achieve this level). But this is not sufficient to arrive at the "sola" part. It only tells us that Scripture is primary, not that it is 'alone'. Note that Catholics do not hold that other sources achieve the same rank as Scripture, but rather that tradition and the magisterium are authoritative and, in some cases, infallible.

Technically Cooper's argument reduces to an argument from ignorance:

1. Scripture is X.​
2. We have no reason to believe that anything else is X.​
3. Therefore, Scripture alone is X.​

I hesitate to say exactly what "X" is, but we need to substitute the right X if we are to arrive at Sola Scriptura. Generally I would want to use an X of 'infallible', but we might also use 'authoritative', or even, if we want to prescind from the historical disputes, 'inspired' (for Catholics agree that Scripture is uniquely inspired, but the basis for this belief must be tradition rather than Scripture itself, since Scripture does not speak to the question).

Regardless, the problem is that this is an argument from ignorance, and premise (2) surely does not come from Scripture.

Circular logic is as irrelevant to me as sola scripture is to Catholicism.

But on the same note of circular logic….. If all scripture is given by inspiration of God ….then that which is not scripture is inspired by another source.

So here is my question:

Where is your line of demarcation. If it is not at the canonized scripture, Is it early church fathers? The Pope? What about Mohammed, Joseph Smith or even David Koresh …..You have to have a line or anything goes… and with that logic you have no solid ground to deny what I say, if I write something in the name of God.

Sooooo…..where is your line? And by what authority do you have to draw that line?



* God has magnified His Word “above” all His name Psa 138:2

*
He has given us all things that pertain to Life and Godliness 2Pe 1:3

*It’s given by revelation from Jesus Christ Gal 1:11&12

*All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2Ti 3:16

*
Because of all scripture → the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Ti 3:17

*
And….We have a more sure word of prophecy than being eye witness of seeing Jesus Christ being transformed on the mount. And that no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation….as it was given by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:16-21



Historical documents can certainly provide us with much information which has proven to be vital….but they are not God breathed. If at any one point extrabiblical writings are contradictory to the Word of God … the Word stands …the other is trashed.

My standard for faith, practice, and Truth …is the Word of God. It has proven itself to be inerrant and inherent. It fits together like a intricate jigsaw puzzle… and whenever believed and acted upon it produces results………….. every time.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It's not a diversion, it's just a factual representation of part of our exchange. In this post I said that Protestants add a new word, "Sola Scriptura" (hence premise 3). You responded by saying that we should not add new words. So the condemnations you issued in that post fall upon yourself.

I would suggest reading my posts more carefully. It seems that you failed entirely to read the one to which you tried to respond.
I already addressed this- restating something that is stated in scripture - DO NOT ADD TO HIS WORDS - meaning scripture alone, is not adding to God's Word. I'm sorry if you don't see it this way so we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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zippy2006

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Let us definite the word doctrine so we are sure we are talking about the same thing. Here is the definition I would use. Also the word dogma

doc·trine
[ˈdäktrən]

NOUN
  1. a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group:



    dog·ma
    [ˈdôɡmə]

    NOUN
    1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:
    I would suggest that Sola Scriptura is dogma, not doctrine. That according to Luther, or whatever authority one might allude to that agrees with Luther on this, it is incontrovertibly true that if a doctrine is not based upon scripture, it cannot be said to be authoritatively correct and therefore not necessary. Doctrine is a belief; Sola Scripture is a principle laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
I agree with the definitions you give, but note that all dogmas are doctrines (even though not all doctrines are dogmas). So according to your own definitions it makes no sense to say that Sola Scriptura is a dogma but not a doctrine.

Sola Scriptura is surely a doctrine. If it is a dogma-doctrine then the argument of the OP is even stronger.
 
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zippy2006

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But on the same note of circular logic….. If all scripture is given by inspiration of God ….then that which is not scripture is inspired by another source.
This is not circular logic, but it is faulty logic. It is like saying, "If all swans are white, then that which is not a swan is not white." Or, "If all law comes from the government, then that which is not a law comes from something that is not the government." But this does not follow. Saying that, "All X comes from Y," does not mean that, "Y only produces X."

Where is your line of demarcation. If it is not at the canonized scripture...

Although the canon of Scripture is not defined in Scripture, this is a different problem of Sola Scriptura than the one identified in the OP.
 
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zippy2006

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I already addressed this- restating something that is stated in scripture - DO NOT ADD TO HIS WORDS - meaning scripture alone, is not adding to God's Word. I'm sorry if you don't see it this way so we will have to agree to disagree.
"Do not add to God's words" is not the same as "Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith." This is uncontroversial.
 
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