Ellen White indicates Miller's message of Jesus coming in 1843 was "heavenly".

[Gary K]

The oil represents their good works, not the Holy Spirit.

Where is your evidence for that from scripture?

 

[Gary K]

He tells more than two parables. And the parables fit the discourse. Starting in 24:36:

Matthew 2436 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.​

He indicates no man knows that day and hour. Had the Millerites followed this there would be no Millerite message of Jesus coming in 1843/44 and eventually October 22, 1844.

He then applies this further:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.​

You don't know when the Lord will come. It will happen when people are not aware.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.​

Since you don't know when the Lord is coming you must be ready.

Matthew 24:45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

The servant who is faithful will be rewarded by the Master. The evil servant will not be found ready, and the Lord will come at a time he is not aware of, and when he is not looking for him. This servant is cut in two and shares the fate of the hypocrites.

So we have direct teaching indicating the time of the Lord's coming is not known. And we have two parables that warn to be ready. It is with that in mind we encounter the two parables that you mention.

Matthew 25:1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.​

The last line ties this to the other parables, and gives the point. The foolish virgins, like the previous servant, were not ready. They did not know the time of Jesus' coming, and were shut out.

We have to be ready and doing what the Lord said at all times. We do not know when He will come. This was reiterated throughout the passage. Miller stated Jesus was coming in 1843, 1844, and eventually settling on Oct. 22, 1844. That message went completely against this whole section. You are not ready by knowing the hour. Because Jesus said expressly you will not know the hour. The timing of Jesus' coming is not known. You have to be ready.

The parable of the talents again emphasizes doing what the Lord asked. They are to be ready.




The passage means what Jesus says it does. He states the point clearly:

Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.​

You have to be ready. It is the same theme throughout the passage.



Certainly not having faith in Christ is fatal. The parable is explained. We do not know when Jesus is coming (Miller should have seen this all around the passage), and so we must always be ready, and be doing what He entrusted us to do.



Sorry but Jesus stated the point plainly. So I am going with what He stated rather than your interpretation reading in later Adventist doctrine. The five foolish virgins were not ready when He came.

Moreover, Miller's message was not the investigative judgment. And the investigative judgment developed gradually over time in the Adventist church, being largely accepted by the 1850's. We see James White for instance rejecting it prior. A version of the investigative judgment had been suggested by a Millerite, but with some different details, and was not the message of the Millerite movement.

So this does not speak to the problem the thread presents. Miller preached Jesus would return to earth in 1843, and 1844, and eventually settled on October 22, 1844 (though this last was not Miller's idea, but he did eventually accept it as well). That was the message that was given. And it was a false, time-setting message that rejected the words of Christ. It did not come to pass.



Ellen White said this,

Great Controversy, chapter 23​

​

"In common with the rest of the Christian world, Adventists then held that the earth, or some portion of it, was the sanctuary."​

But this is demonstrably untrue. Here are just a few commentators from the time leading up to 1844 that did in fact know where the sanctuary was. And the reason they knew was because they had read the book of Hebrews.

Matthew Henry:

Hebrews 9 - Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary, filling six volumes, provides an exhaustive look at every verse in the Bible.

www.studylight.org

​

Christ, our high priest, has entered into heaven, not as their high priest entered into the holiest, with the blood of bulls and of goats, but by his own blood, typified by theirs, and infinitely more precious. And this,​

​

Not for one year only, which showed the imperfection of that priesthood, that it did but typically obtain a year's reprieve or pardon. But our high priest entered into heaven once for all, and has obtained not a yearly respite, but eternal redemption, and so needs not to make an annual entrance.​

Robert Haldane:

Hebrews 9 - Haldane's Exposition on the Epistle to the Romans and Hebrews - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Haldane's Exposition on the Epistle to the Romans and Hebrews, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary is one of the most respected interdenominational commentaries ever written.

www.studylight.org

​

He is set at the right hand of the majesty in the heavens. Hebrews 8:1. This is the sanctuary of which He is minister. This is the true tabernacle into which He has entered by His own blood.​

Albert Barnes:

Hebrews 9 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 9, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary by Albert Barnes, a dedicated student of the Bible, continues to be very popular even today.

www.studylight.org

​

By a greater and more perfect tabernacle - The meaning is, that Christ officiated as high priest in a much more magnificent and perfect temple than either the tabernacle or the temple under the old dispensation. He performed the great functions of his priestly office - the sprinkling of the blood of the atonement - in heaven itself, of which the most holy place in the tabernacle was but the emblem.​

So, you just ignore the IJ completely. Why is that?

Matthew 24:36 is not a parable. I don't understand how you can even begin to claim it is. Matthew 24: 37-41 is. But, this started out as a study of the sanctuary by Miller and he ended up where he did by studying that subject. He didn't set out to prove when the 2nd coming would take place.

If you will read the history of Miller and Bates you will find they used no sources other than a Bible and a concordance for study. They used no commentaries, nothing written except those two sources, plus prayer and the claiming of the promise of the HS. Miller had no desire to speak publicly on the subject. In fact he resisted it until answered prayer forced him to speak publicly because after a long struggle with his conscience, of more than a year, he had promised God that he would speak publicly if asked. .Within a half hour the son of a man he knew in a nearby town came and told him his father wanted him to come and speak at their church. Even then Miller resisted the call. He went outside and went to a grove of nearby trees he used for a place of private prayer and told God he didn't want to speak as he didn't feel qualified as he was a former atheist who had fought against any and all religion for most of his life. He went through a big time struggle with God but finally surrendered. When he went back to the house the kid was still there waiting for his answer. He told him he would go with him and that was the start of the Millerite movement.

The leading of God is very obvious. He received so many requests from so many different churches he stayed busy from then on just telling people what he had found in scripture and it was obvious that God was blessing his efforts as people were turning their lives over to God on a large scale. That does not happen from a devil inspired teaching.

You might read his autobiography. It's in the Adventist Pioneer library and can be read or downloaded from several sites on the internet. I read it not too long ago for the first time was extremely impressed by the man's dedication to studying scripture, to God, and his integrity.

 

[tall73]

So, you just ignore the IJ completely. Why is that?

Here is Ellen White speaking about the Adventist investigative judgment:

Great Controversy, chapter 28

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."​

​

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above.​

​

Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.​

​

While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.​

​

In Ellen White's investigative judgment the proceedings occur in heaven. You are not present, you don't know when your name will come up, or when the judgment will end.

Now you ask will I ignore the investigative judgment completely?

I think there will be investigation and judgement. The parable of the talents is one example of that. But it happens after Jesus comes.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.​

The Lord returns after a long time, and settles accounts. This is happening on earth, after the second coming.

Matthew 25:20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’​

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’​

​

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.​

​

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful. He casts those who were unfaithful into outer darkness. That is not Ellen White's judgment. They wouldn't even know when their case came up in Ellen White's judgment. This judgment happens after the second coming. And they are present before Him and He asks for an account.

This is in line with all the various texts about Jesus judging when He comes:

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.​

Jesus will bring to light the things now hidden when He comes.

Romans 14:10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.​

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late. Just as in the parable of the talents we must give account, before the Lord.

​

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, AND we RECEIVE according to what we have done. That again is not the Adventist IJ, where we do not acually appear, or receive our reward.

The same chapter, Matthew 25 speaks of judgment before the throne when Jesus comes:

​

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ. It is at His coming. All things are revealed, there is investigation, but it happens before the Lord.

​

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’​

You referenced this text earlier and indicated it related to the Adventist IJ. But it does not. Because in the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White, you won't be objecting, because you won't know when your case comes up.

Matthew 24:36 is not a parable. I don't understand how you can even begin to claim it is.

I did not suggest that Matthew 24:36 is a parable. I indicated there were more than two parables in the discourse, then I began looking at the discourse in Matthew 24:36.

And that text is very clear, and went directly against the Millierite movement.

Matthew 24: 37-41 is. But, this started out as a study of the sanctuary by Miller and he ended up where he did by studying that subject. He didn't set out to prove when the 2nd coming would take place.

Verse 37-41 is not a parable, but a comparison of historical events in the time of Noah.

The parable of the unfaithful servant is a parable.

The theme of the whole section was the same, that you do not know when the Lord will come, and therefore you must be ready.

Nor does it matter what Miller set out to prove. His message, which Ellen White said was heavenly, and saving truth, was that Jesus was coming in 1843, and then 1844, and then eventually Oct. 22, 1844. That message was not truth at all, and it went directly against the words of Jesus.

If you will read the history of Miller and Bates you will find they used no sources other than a Bible and a concordance for study.

I have read it, and I am familiar with his means of study, with a Cruden's concordance, etc.

None of that changes the point. He gave a false message about the timing of Jesus' coming. Ellen White said that message was heavenly, and saving truth AFTER it failed. The message should never have been given because it contradicted the words of Jesus.

The leading of God is very obvious. He received so many requests from so many different churches he stayed busy from then on just telling people what he had found in scripture and it was obvious that God was blessing his efforts as people were turning their lives over to God on a large scale. That does not happen from a devil inspired teaching.

Sorry Gary, we are not going to believe that his failed, false message which went against the words of Christ was by the leading of God.

Had Miller preached the coming of Jesus, and being ready, that would be great indeed. And I quoted one of the ministers of the day urging him to do just that, to leave off date setting and preach Jesus' coming. But his message was that Jesus was coming in 1843, then 1844, then Oct. 22, 1844. That was a false message, and should never have been given.

You might read his autobiography. It's in the Adventist Pioneer library and can be read or downloaded from several sites on the internet. I read it not too long ago for the first time was extremely impressed by the man's dedication to studying scripture, to God, and his integrity.

I am acquainted with it, and have read other Adventist histories on the subject. And it doesn't change Miller's false message into a true one.

Moreover, Miller did not claim inspiration.

Item Information | Sketches of the Christian life and public labors of William Miller, gathered from his Memoir by the late Sylvester Bliss, and from other sources. | Making of America Books | University of Michigan Library Digital Collections

“I am thankful to God, although much and sorely disappointed, that I never pretended to be divinely inspired, but always directed you to the same source from which I obtained all the information I then had and now possess on this glorious and heart-cheering subject.​

Miller indicated that he was sharing the results of his study. He did not say that his message was from God.

Moreover, he rejected the teaching of those who became Seventh-day Adventists that the 7th month movement was a fulfillment of prophecy in any way:

William Miller’s Apology and Defence, August 1

m.egwwritings.org

Some are disposed to lay a stress on the seventh month movement which is not warranted by the Word. There was then a dedication of heart in view of the Lord’s coming, that was well pleasing in the sight of God. Desire for the Lord’s coming and preparation for that event are acceptable to Him. But because we then ardently desired his coming, and sought that preparation that was necessary, it does not follow that our expectations were then realized. For we were certainly disappointed. We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed to frankly confess all our errors. I have no confidence in any of the new theories that have grown out of that movement, viz., that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfilment of prophecy in any sense.​

​

He notes that there was an aspect that was pleasing to the Lord--a dedication of heart in the Lord's coming. But then he admits they were mistaken and dissapointed. And he does not see any prophecy fulfilled at that time.

 

[tall73]

Miller, as seen above, did not claim inspiration. Miller, as seen above, admitted his error. Miller, as seen above, did not see that the movement was a fulfillment of prophecy.

Ellen White was the one who claimed that the false, date-setting message that went against the words of Christ were a heavenly message, and saving truth.

But it was not truth at all. And it was prohibited by Scripture.


Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

[tall73]

And how many prophet understood everything about their visions and dreams?

Miller didn't claim inspiration. But he should have heeded the words of Scripture:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And it is not as though the Millerites were unaware of these Scriptures. The existing published responses to Miller point them out, as posted earlier in the thread. And Miller commented on some of those responses, so we know he read them.

Ellen White had even less excuse for what she wrote, because it was years after the fact. She heard those Scriptures repeated during the Millerite movement, and ignored them. And she saw that the message did not come true. Jesus did not return in 1843, 1844, or October 22.

Yet she said that the message that Jesus was coming in 1843/1844/Oct. 22, 1844 was heavenly, and a saving message. It of course was not truth at all, and was based on unbilbical date setting.

And she said that those who rejected Miller's false, date-setting message were lost. According to Ellen White those who actually went by what Jesus said about no man knows the day or the hour were lost.

 

[prodromos]

Where is your evidence for that from scripture?

Where is your evidence from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a commodity which can be bought and sold?

 

[Gary K]

Where is your evidence from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a commodity which can be bought and sold?

Therre is none. Where do you get the idea that I have said there is?

 

[Gary K]

Here is Ellen White speaking about the Adventist investigative judgment:

Great Controversy, chapter 28

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."​

​

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above.​

​

Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men.​

​

While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.​

​

In Ellen White's investigative judgment the proceedings occur in heaven. You are not present, you don't know when your name will come up, or when the judgment will end.

Now you ask will I ignore the investigative judgment completely?

I think there will be investigation and judgement. The parable of the talents is one example of that. But it happens after Jesus comes.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.​

The Lord returns after a long time, and settles accounts. This is happening on earth, after the second coming.

Matthew 25:20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’​

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’​

​

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.​

​

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful. He casts those who were unfaithful into outer darkness. That is not Ellen White's judgment. They wouldn't even know when their case came up in Ellen White's judgment. This judgment happens after the second coming. And they are present before Him and He asks for an account.

This is in line with all the various texts about Jesus judging when He comes:

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.​

Jesus will bring to light the things now hidden when He comes.

Romans 14:10b For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.​

We will stand before the judgment seat, not be absent as in the Adventist IJ. We kneel, bow, confess, and give an account, which cannot happen in the IJ, because per Ellen White we won't even know when our case comes up or when the whole judgment is finished until it is too late. Just as in the parable of the talents we must give account, before the Lord.

​

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ, AND we RECEIVE according to what we have done. That again is not the Adventist IJ, where we do not acually appear, or receive our reward.

The same chapter, Matthew 25 speaks of judgment before the throne when Jesus comes:

​

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ. It is at His coming. All things are revealed, there is investigation, but it happens before the Lord.

​

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’​

You referenced this text earlier and indicated it related to the Adventist IJ. But it does not. Because in the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White, you won't be objecting, because you won't know when your case comes up.




I did not suggest that Matthew 24:36 is a parable. I indicated there were more than two parables in the discourse, then I began looking at the discourse in Matthew 24:36.

And that text is very clear, and went directly against the Millierite movement.


Verse 37-41 is not a parable, but a comparison of historical events in the time of Noah.

The parable of the unfaithful servant is a parable.

The theme of the whole section was the same, that you do not know when the Lord will come, and therefore you must be ready.

Nor does it matter what Miller set out to prove. His message, which Ellen White said was heavenly, and saving truth, was that Jesus was coming in 1843, and then 1844, and then eventually Oct. 22, 1844. That message was not truth at all, and it went directly against the words of Jesus.




I have read it, and I am familiar with his means of study, with a Cruden's concordance, etc.

None of that changes the point. He gave a false message about the timing of Jesus' coming. Ellen White said that message was heavenly, and saving truth AFTER it failed. The message should never have been given because it contradicted the words of Jesus.





Sorry Gary, we are not going to believe that his failed, false message which went against the words of Christ was by the leading of God.

Had Miller preached the coming of Jesus, and being ready, that would be great indeed. And I quoted one of the ministers of the day urging him to do just that, to leave off date setting and preach Jesus' coming. But his message was that Jesus was coming in 1843, then 1844, then Oct. 22, 1844. That was a false message, and should never have been given.



I am acquainted with it, and have read other Adventist histories on the subject. And it doesn't change Miller's false message into a true one.

Moreover, Miller did not claim inspiration.

Item Information | Sketches of the Christian life and public labors of William Miller, gathered from his Memoir by the late Sylvester Bliss, and from other sources. | Making of America Books | University of Michigan Library Digital Collections

“I am thankful to God, although much and sorely disappointed, that I never pretended to be divinely inspired, but always directed you to the same source from which I obtained all the information I then had and now possess on this glorious and heart-cheering subject.​

Miller indicated that he was sharing the results of his study. He did not say that his message was from God.

Moreover, he rejected the teaching of those who became Seventh-day Adventists that the 7th month movement was a fulfillment of prophecy in any way:

William Miller’s Apology and Defence, August 1

m.egwwritings.org

Some are disposed to lay a stress on the seventh month movement which is not warranted by the Word. There was then a dedication of heart in view of the Lord’s coming, that was well pleasing in the sight of God. Desire for the Lord’s coming and preparation for that event are acceptable to Him. But because we then ardently desired his coming, and sought that preparation that was necessary, it does not follow that our expectations were then realized. For we were certainly disappointed. We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed to frankly confess all our errors. I have no confidence in any of the new theories that have grown out of that movement, viz., that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfilment of prophecy in any sense.​

​

He notes that there was an aspect that was pleasing to the Lord--a dedication of heart in the Lord's coming. But then he admits they were mistaken and dissapointed. And he does not see any prophecy fulfilled at that time.

I find it interesting that you quote an article published on the EG White website that is critical of both Ellen White and the SDA church. That speaks of nothing but honesty to me and the devil is the father of lies. So, I'll stick with Ellen White and the SDA church as the fruits of Miller's work has been been demonstrably shown to be the work of God. The work of the devil never brings people to the point of surrendering their lives to God. It's always been his work to separate people from God. To bring in theories which, if people believe them, bring forth fruits of licentiousness, crime, and hatred.

I have to think from your opposition to her you think the devil gave her the knowledge of cancer and health reform which to me is incomprehensible as his theories always bring in the opposite behaviors such as self destruction through alcohol, drugs, promiscuous sex and the like . I also find it unbelievable that you ignore the fruits of her writings and the obvious leading of the HS in proclaiming the love of God. The devil's modus operendi has alwas been to smear God's character with his own attributes of hatred and murderous rage. Yet Ellen White taught exactly the opposite of that. She always taught, and lived, glory needed to given to God, and love for our fellow man and God as loving kind, and honest. I see that as the biggest factor in viewing your position as false.

 

[prodromos]

Therre is none. Where do you get the idea that I have said there is?

Matthew 25:9-10

 

[tall73]

I find it interesting that you quote an article published on the EG White website that is critical of both Ellen White and the SDA church.

Well, it is an historical document that relates to a key doctrine, and some of Ellen White's statements, so the White Estate hosted it. That is good of them to do.

The rest of your comment, your reasons for believing Ellen White despite her going against the words of Scripture in regards to the time of Jesus' return, sounds like a topic for another thread.

 

[tampasteve]

She always taught, and lived, glory needed to given to God, and love for our fellow man and God as loving kind, and honest. I see that as the biggest factor in viewing your position as false.

The same can be said of a myriad of Roman Catholic saints, but I don't trust in their visions and statements on doctrine either. Kindness and good intentions don't make one a prophet.

 

[Gary K]

Well, it is an historical document that relates to a key doctrine, and some of Ellen White's statements, so the White Estate hosted it. That is good of them to do.

The rest of your comment, your reasons for believing Ellen White despite her going against the words of Scripture in regards to the time of Jesus' return, sounds like a topic for another thread.

Nope. It is a very good explanation for Ellen White's writings. Honesty is a by product of a relationship with God.and so is the promotion of the love of, and for, God. The god of this world never promotes these concepts.

 

[tall73]

Nope. It is a very good explanation for Ellen White's writings. Honesty is a by product of a relationship with God.and so is the promotion of the love of, and for, God. The god of this world never promotes these concepts.

I will try to be a bit more clear. You have stated your reasons you accept Ellen White. But this thread is on a specific topic, which is what Ellen White said about William MIller's message. You have posted on that topic, and are welcome to post more on that topic. However, if you wish to speak on a different topic, about why you accept Ellen White, feel free to start a thread. And when you do, if you wish to post a link to that thread so that people reading this thread may see your view, that would be fine.

But regarding the topic of the thread, Ellen White's statements about William Miller's message, I see some very obvious issues.

You speak of honesty. I think an honest person is immediately struck with some plain truths on this topic:

- William Miller preached that Jesus would come in 1843/1844/and eventually joined with the movement in believing Jesus return to earth on Oct. 22, 1844. But Jesus did not in fact return to earth in 1843 or 1844. Honesty would admit that William Miller's message was therefore false. This is 2023. Jesus' second coming did not take place in 1844. We can say that the truth is that Jesus' second coming did not occur in 1843/1844. But Ellen White says about Miller's message: "Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller". Miller's message was not truth. It was false, and demonstrably so. So false, that no one need wonder if it was truth, which is why those who are not Adventists think it very strange to claim otherwise.

- William MIller's message went against the plain statements of Scripture, that indicate that we will not know the timing of Jesus return, but must continue to be ready:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

​

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

​

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.​

​

- Ellen White admits that people should not set dates, citing these very Scriptures:

Many who have called themselves Adventists have been time setters. Time after time has been set for Christ to come, but repeated failures have been the result. The definite time of our Lord's coming is declared to be beyond the ken of mortals. Even the angels who minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation know not the day nor the hour. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Because the times repeatedly set have passed, the world is in a more decided state of unbelief than before in regard to the near advent of Christ. They look upon the failures of the time setters with disgust; and because men have been so deceived, they turn from the truth substantiated by the word of God that the end of all things is at hand. {4T 307.1} Those who so presumptuously preach definite time, in so doing gratify the adversary of souls; for they are advancing infidelity rather than Christianity. They produce Scripture and by false interpretation show a chain of argument which apparently proves their position. But their failures show that they are false prophets, that they do not rightly interpret the language of inspiration. The word of God is truth and verity, but men have perverted its meaning. These errors have brought the truth of God for these days into disrepute.​

Testimonies vol 4, pg 307​

But despite plainly indicating that predicting the timing of Jesus coming is presumptuous, and promotes infidelity, she does not apply this to Miller, or to herself. Instead, she indicates that God wanted them to ignore the Scriptures and preach the definite timing of Jesus' coming.

- Ellen White says that the false message, that didn't come true, that went against Scripture, was of God. And she doubled down by saying those who did point to Scripture which says that we won't know the definite time of Jesus' coming were lost.

Others see this, and do not come to the same conclusion as you, and for some obvious reasons. Ellen White called a false, failed message truth, and it was not. People see the plain facts of the case. And they see that Jesus ruled out the Millerite movement being truth from the beginning:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

​

 

[tall73]

In the Great Controversy chapter 20 we see Ellen White describe what argument was most often brought against the Millerites:

"No man knoweth the day nor the hour" was the argument most often brought forward by rejecters of the advent faith. The scripture is: "Of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Matthew 24:36. A clear and harmonious explanation of this text was given by those who were looking for the Lord, and the wrong use made of it by their opponents was clearly shown. The words were spoken by Christ in that memorable conversation with His disciples upon Olivet after He had for the last time departed from the temple. The disciples had asked the question: "What shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus gave them signs, and said: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Verses 3, 33. One saying of the Saviour must not be made to destroy another. Though no man knoweth the day nor the hour of His coming, we are instructed and required to know when it is near. We are further taught that to disregard His warning, and refuse or neglect to know when His advent is near, will be as fatal for us as it was for those who lived in the days of Noah not to know when the flood was coming. And the parable in the same chapter, contrasting the faithful and the unfaithful servant, and giving the doom of him who said in his heart, "My Lord delayeth His coming," shows in what light Christ will regard and reward those whom He finds watching, and teaching His coming, and those denying it. "Watch therefore," He says. "Blessed is that servant, whom his Lord when He cometh shall find so doing." Verses 42, 46. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3.​

​

It is of course good to be ready for Jesus' coming. But the reader will probably notice that she does not actually resolve the problem. In fact, she testifies again, along with her other statements to the point, that people repeated "no man knoweth the day nor hour" often, and that it was the argument most presented on the point.

The Millerites did not just indicate that Jesus' coming was near and to be ready, but eventually settled on Oct. 22, 1844 for the timing of Jesus coming, which goes against the text warning that no one knows the day or hour, as well as texts indicating that Jesus comes at a time you do not expect.

​

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.​

So rather than explain how this repeated argument was incorrect, this rather shows that it was correct. The Millerites had to ignore Scripture to preach their message about the definite time of Jesus' coming.

 

[The Liturgist]

In the Great Controversy chapter 20 we see Ellen White describe what argument was most often brought against the Millerites:

"No man knoweth the day nor the hour" was the argument most often brought forward by rejecters of the advent faith. The scripture is: "Of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Matthew 24:36. A clear and harmonious explanation of this text was given by those who were looking for the Lord, and the wrong use made of it by their opponents was clearly shown. The words were spoken by Christ in that memorable conversation with His disciples upon Olivet after He had for the last time departed from the temple. The disciples had asked the question: "What shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Jesus gave them signs, and said: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Verses 3, 33. One saying of the Saviour must not be made to destroy another. Though no man knoweth the day nor the hour of His coming, we are instructed and required to know when it is near. We are further taught that to disregard His warning, and refuse or neglect to know when His advent is near, will be as fatal for us as it was for those who lived in the days of Noah not to know when the flood was coming. And the parable in the same chapter, contrasting the faithful and the unfaithful servant, and giving the doom of him who said in his heart, "My Lord delayeth His coming," shows in what light Christ will regard and reward those whom He finds watching, and teaching His coming, and those denying it. "Watch therefore," He says. "Blessed is that servant, whom his Lord when He cometh shall find so doing." Verses 42, 46. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3.​

​

It is of course good to be ready for Jesus' coming. But the reader will probably notice that she does not actually resolve the problem. In fact, she testifies again, along with her other statements to the point, that people repeated "no man knoweth the day nor hour" often, and that it was the argument most presented on the point.

The Millerites did not just indicate that Jesus' coming was near and to be ready, but eventually settled on Oct. 22, 1844 for the timing of Jesus coming, which goes against the text warning that no one knows the day or hour, as well as texts indicating that Jesus comes at a time you do not expect.

​

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.​

So rather than explain how this repeated argument was incorrect, this rather shows that it was correct. The Millerites had to ignore Scripture to preach their message about the definite time of Jesus' coming.

And this resulted in the Great Disappointment, and it seems to me that the novel doctrine of the Investigative Judgement, which I regard as itself untenable since according to John 1:1-18 God is eternal, existing outside space and time, which He created, and Jesus Christ is God, and is therefore omniscient, and already knows who will be saved and who will not, is an attempt to recover some meaning for that date. There are several scriptural texts which Adventism in my opinion does not adequately address, in my opinion, including John chapter 1 and chapter 6, and especially the Pauline epistles, particularly Galatians and 2 Thessalonians, and also much of the Gospel of Matthew, such as chapter 16, and the portions where our Lord discusses the Sabbath.

 

[tall73]

And this resulted in the Great Disappointment,

Yes, exactly.

and it seems to me that the novel doctrine of the Investigative Judgement, which I regard as itself untenable since according to John 1:1-18 God is eternal, existing outside space and time, which He created, and Jesus Christ is God, and is therefore omniscient, and already knows who will be saved and who will not, is an attempt to recover some meaning for that date.

It was an eventual development from the idea that Jesus did not return to earth in 1844, and that the earth was not the sanctuary to be cleansed by fire in Daniel 8, as MIller taught, but that rather the sanctuary was in heaven, and the cleansing referenced in Daniel 8 was, in their view, that referred to in the Day of Atonement.

The IJ as the cleansing took some time to come into being. James White, for instance, argued that it was not necessary for there to be a judgment prior as Jesus knows His sheep and the angels will know who to raise because they are in the book of life.

However, Adventists are not making the claim that God doesn't know who are saved. Adventists are making the claim that the investigative judgment is meant to demonstrate God's justice to the onlooking universe.

And all of that is a topic beyond this thread. This is looking at Ellen White's endorsement of Miller's failed, time setting, Scripture ignoring message that Jesus was coming in 1843, 1844, and eventually the settled on date of Oct. 22, 1844.

And as you properly note, that led to the disappointment, because they ignored the Scriptures:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

There are several scriptural texts which Adventism in my opinion does not adequately address, in my opinion, including John chapter 1 and chapter 6, and especially the Pauline epistles, particularly Galatians and 2 Thessalonians, and also much of the Gospel of Matthew, such as chapter 16, and the portions where our Lord discusses the Sabbath.

That is certainly beyond the scope of this thread. But you are welcome to start a thread on that topic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, exactly.



It was an eventual development from the idea that Jesus did not return to earth in 1844, and that the earth was not the sanctuary to be cleansed by fire in Daniel 8, as MIller taught, but that rather the sanctuary was in heaven, and the cleansing referenced in Daniel 8 was, in their view, that referred to in the Day of Atonement.

The IJ as the cleansing took some time to come into being. James White, for instance, argued that it was not necessary for there to be a judgment prior as Jesus knows His sheep and the angels will know who to raise because they are in the book of life.

However, Adventists are not making the claim that God doesn't know who are saved. Adventists are making the claim that the investigative judgment is meant to demonstrate God's justice to the onlooking universe.

And all of that is a topic beyond this thread. This is looking at Ellen White's endorsement of Miller's failed, time setting, Scripture ignoring message that Jesus was coming in 1843, 1844, and eventually the settled on date of Oct. 22, 1844.

And as you properly note, that led to the disappointment, because they ignored the Scriptures:

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



That is certainly beyond the scope of this thread. But you are welcome to start a thread on that topic.

Yes, forgive me, my mind has a tendency to want to explore related subject matter, so I tend to inadvertently pose problems for narrowly focused threads. But that being said I really support what you are doing here.

Please forgive me if I post segues like the above in one of your threads in the future; I am also a bit forgetful, but I do understand why you specifically need to keep your threads precisely on target, so if you see my mind wandering, just PM me and tell me to knock it off, and I will comply, and also edit any posts you request.

God bless you my friend.

 

[The Liturgist]

If you will read the history of Miller and Bates you will find they used no sources other than a Bible and a concordance for study.

That only increases the risk of severe error on their end, since they are ignoring the Consensus Patrum, historical contextual information, commentaries from people who read the scriptures in their original language and in some cases translated them, the commentaries of the Protestant Reformers, et cetera. I would argue that this largely explains the extremely novel nature of their exegesis, which bears no resemblance to any prior interpretation of the scripture. This also suggests they made the common mistake of confusing sola scriptura with sufficiency of scripture and perspicuity of scripture, but since many people have done what they did and came out with divergent interpretations, this shows that scripture is not as perspicuous as some might believe.

 

[tall73]

Yes, forgive me, my mind has a tendency to want to explore related subject matter, so I tend to inadvertently pose problems for narrowly focused threads. But that being said I really support what you are doing here.

Understood completely! I think some of the topics you raised could make for interesting threads where such things are explored.

 

[David Kent]

Proof 11

XI . The trumpets are also a revelation of time . See Rev. ix . 5 : " And to them it was given that they should not kill them , but that they should be tormented five months : and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion , when he striketh a man . " These five months began when the Turks made incursions into the Greek territories , according to Gibbon , in the year 1299 , on the 27th day of July . 5 months is 150 years , 5x30 = 150 . This trumpet ended 1449. And the sixth trumpet began to sound , and was to sound 391 years and 15 days , as in Rev. ix . 15 : " And the four angels were loosed , which were prepared for an hour , and a day , and a month , and a year , for to slay the third part of men ; " and ended 1840 , on the 11th of August . Then the seventh trumpet begins , and ends with the fulness of times . Rev. x . 5 , 7 : " And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth , lifted up his hand to heaven , and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever , who created heaven , and the things that therein are , and the earth and the things that therein are , and the sea , and the things which are therein , that there should be time no longer : but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel , when he shall begin to sound , the mystery of God should be finished , as he hath declared to his servants the prophets . " And synchronizes with Daniel xii . 7 . See section 7 , where it is shown to end in the year 1843. ( See Mil- ler's Lectures , p . 190. )

The scorpions were not the Turks, but the Sarecens. The Turks were in the second half of chapter 9.