Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

Guojing

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You seem to reject a lot of the Torah, so you can keep and promote your own doctrine.

I would ask you to consider, What if the Torah is Right, and your adopted religion, with its u-tube videos are wrong. I am asking whether it is possible that from the very beginning "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The Body of Christ is not under the Law of Moses in the first place, there is no need for me to reject it.

As for that verse, I already stated to you my interpretation earlier.

But since I am willing to accept that you interpret differently, naturally I accept that it is possible you are correct. That is why I agree to disagree. =)
 
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Studyman

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P1: I don't believe the faithful are Grafted into Israel
P2:
I believe we are grafted into the Way of the Lord with Israel,

Conclusion: we partake of the Root as if we are Israel

Your conclusion does not follow from your above 2 premises.

We are not grafted into Israel, we are grafted into God with Israel will not allow one to conclude that we are Israel.

I appreciate that you have your adopted religious views, and that you have chosen Hastings as your teacher, and you have indicated that you don't believe much of the Scriptures for various reasons. You are free to believe as you wish, and there are lots of things you post that do align with Scriptures, in my view. But this issue regarding the flesh we were born with, is something that the Scriptures do not support, as I have shown over and over. You seem to believe some of Paul's teaching, so I will post more of his words.


Romans 8: 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and "joint-heirs" with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Do I not then become a Child of God, and "Fellow Heirs" with Israel who is also a Child of God? Are we not then brothers in Christ? Does God then place a difference between us based on the DNA we were born with? Does the Torah not say "But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye (Israel) were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So then, both Israel and Gentiles were Strangers. Shall they not also become brothers and sisters together in the ONE Church of God, like Joshua and Rehab?

If I am to become "Born Again", as the Christ of the Bible teaches, shall I not become born again as an Israelite? Defined as one who does the works of Israel?

These are valid questions and points. You are free to ignore them and protect and preserve your doctrine if you wish. I am seeking to understand the truth of the Scriptures. If you can demonstrate how these scriptures don't support the belief that Paul's teaching; "WE", that is Jews and non-Jews in the ONE Church of the ONE God "Are the Circumcision" then show me in Scriptures where I am in Error.

But if I just haven't adopted the religious philosophies of one of the many religious sects of this world we were born into, that you have adopted, then simply acknowledge that.
Example
I don't believe a dog is ever grafted into a cat
I believe dog A is grafted into the household with a cat.

In my understanding, the God of the Bible is not concerned with cats, or dogs or oxen. He is concerned with the Heart of man. You, like the Pharisees, are working to divide men according to the DNA they were born with. The Scriptures I posted from the Law and Prophets, don't agree with your religious philosophy in this matter.




Conclusion: the dog partake of the riches of the owner's household as if it is a cat.

You get my point?

I have always gotten your point, I have just found that it's not the point God is making in the Law and Prophets. In your example here, you preach that the dog and cat are in the same house, and God treats them as if they are One, putting no difference between them. If God's Children are dogs, then the Cat turns away from the works of a Cat and adopts the works of a dog. In the Flesh, they are different. But in the heart, they are the same. Both dogs and cats "Are the true Circumcision" in the house of God.

The Body of Christ is a new creation and is separate from the nation of Israel.

But here, your story changes. Now you are preaching that God doesn't have "ONE CHURCH" that both cats and dogs enter, but two. That the Body of the Christ of the Bible is not the same as the Church of God that Abraham Isaac and Jacob belonged to.

I don't believe the Scriptures support you and Mr. Hastings teaching that the Church of God in Paul's time, was different than the Church of God in Abraham's Time, or Calebs, or Ezekiel's or Zacharias, Simeon, Anna or the Wise Men's time.

It's the

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile, and because of the mystery revealed by the apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9), we are now partakers of God's riches independent of the nation of Israel.

Rom. 11: 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Cut off from what? The Body of Christ, Yes? The exact same "Body" that Israel was broken off from. The ONE Church of God that Abraham and Joshua partook of, but many in Israel were cut off from.

23 And they (Nation of Israel that were broken off) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in "again".

Is Paul not talking about the same "Olive Tree" here that Abraham was "Grafted into"? That Gentiles are grafted into? And that if Israel continues not in unbelief, they can be grafted "Back in" the tree they were broken off from?

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

If Israel was broken off, are they then not considered by God as the same as the uncircumcised in the flesh?

Jer. 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; 26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Isn't this the same thing Paul is saying. "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Therefore, "Israel" are those who are grafted into the Holy Tree. They are the circumcision. They are the Body of Christ. Those broken off, are no longer Israel, or no longer the circumcision. But if they continue not in unbelief and do the works of Abraham, God is able to Graft them back in again, in which case they become a new man, the Children of Abraham and heirs to the Promise, an Israelite.

Now I understand that God is going to give "Israel" in the valley of bones, a shot at hearing the Gospel for those who were used as "Examples" for the Church of God. I understand the "Nation of Israel" in that capacity.

But for the faithful, it was never about the Flesh, or the DNA or race that a man was born into. It was always about faith and obedience to God, just as it is today.

At least, this is what the scriptures, many of which I posted for your review and examination, seem to promote.

What a great discussion for men to have, in this wickedest of times.
 
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Studyman

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The Body of Christ is not under the Law of Moses in the first place, there is no need for me to reject it.

As for that verse, I already stated to you my interpretation earlier.

But since I am willing to accept that you interpret differently, naturally I accept that it is possible you are correct. That is why I agree to disagree. =)

Fair enough. There is Truth and non-truth, according to Scriptures. I am advocating for the seeking of HIS Truth, given this world's religions are more interested in preserving their own doctrines, it seems.

I'm curious about something if you would be so kind as to answer my question. In your religion, is the following an example of Israel being Grafted into the Holy Tree?

Duet. 32: 9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. 10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; (Stranger, Yes?) he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. 11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: 12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

Is this not Jacob being grafted into the Church of God?

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Is this not Israel rejecting the Gospel of the Christ? And if not, then who is the "Rock of their Salvation"?

It would be great if you could answer my question.
 
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Soyeong

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The physical Nation of Israel in the OT was talking directly to the physical Nation as well as prophetically to the Nation of Israel that was to come, namely the church and body of Jesus Christ.
The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as 'church" and it is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness.

I believe it was a Torah law that required a prophet to be proven as true or be killed as a false prophet. Can’t remember where I read it exactly.
According to Deuteronomy 13:1-11, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, and doing that incurred the death penalty.

There’s One God and One Way.
Indeed, and there are many verses that describe the Torah as being instructions for how to walk in God's way, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, Psalms 119:1-3, and many others.

In the tradition of a Christianity that I belong to we have the teaching that Christ fulfilled the law. He directly taught us various meanings that were misunderstood and He indirectly taught also through His Apostles. So we live by the fullness of the law as taught by the Lord.
"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in the law to be obeyed as it should be (NAS Greek Lexicon : pleroo), so Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended, which does not involve doing away with parts of it.

Is circumcision still required for men to enter into the covenent? Yes but not in the flesh as in the Old Testament but of the heart. And no longer just men but females as well.
In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God instructed His people to circumcise our hearts and obey the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:1-10, it prophesied about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah. In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, they are speaking in regard to the New Covenant, the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising their hearts by means of the Spirit, and them returning to obedience to the Torah. In Romans 2:25-29, they way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah. So the New Covenant is all about Israel returning to obedience to the Torah, having a circumcised heart is not an alternative to having circumcised flesh, and it does not refer to anything other than living in obedience to the Torah.

Is there a Sabbath rest in my tradition? Yes and the ultimate Sabbath rest is Christ in the tomb when He defeated Satan. So we enter into that rest, into that victory, into that sacrifice of Christ and pick up His yoke.
In Hebrews 3:18-19, they did not enter into God's rest because of their disobedience, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths, entering into God's eternal rest is not an alternative to keeping the 7th day holy. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest from our works as God rested from His, and we should strive to enter into that rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience.

Obviously we don’t murder but now we don’t hate either.
In Leviticus 19:17, it instructs not to hate our brother, so Jesus was not teaching anything brand new.

Hopefully you see my point without needing to drag out every commandment. We don’t live by the law as the Jews did, who obviously didn’t understand the Law and were corrected many times by Christ for their misuse of it.
The correct solution to incorrectly obeying God's law is to start obeying it correctly, not to stop obeying it. In regard to the debate between Hillel and Shammai, Jesus was virtually in complete agreement with Hillel, so there were Jews who had a correct understanding of it.

We find no justification in the law or its rigid observation.
While we do not earn our justification as a wage by obeying God's law (Romans 4:1-5), it is also true that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

The New Testament wasn’t written as a step by step instruction manual for Christians. Neither was the Law of Moses. In fact the 27 canonized books of the NT didn’t officially come into being as a whole work until the 4th century. There were churches who hadn’t seen all 27 books still at that time. The church survived those first centuries by the Holy Spirit and not a written manual. Centuries of extreme persecution and yet the church grew. How? The Lord who birthed the church Himself (not Paul) taught the truth to his Apostles, most of which isn’t contained in the Gospels just see St. John‘s last sentences. He then empowered His Apostles (Pentecost) and sent them into the world to pass on this teaching (literary tradition). the writings of the Apostles are mostly praises or corrections and some theology instruction for Christian communities that they founded. The situation of the Law of Moses was settled before the Apostles fell to their Martyrdom (except John of course).
There were lists of authoritative books that closely match the list of the 27 canonized books that were centuries earlier. Most of those books were broadly recognized as being authoritative and were in use by the general population long before the 4th century with only a handful of books being in question, so that was more or less just an official stamp of approval on what was already being used. Moreover, books were transmitted orally before they were written down.

It had to be, because the Jews were trying to infiltrate the church and spread heresy by bringing Jews back into the bondage of the law as well as their converts.
If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Torah that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Torah, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it as Paul did (Romans 7:22), and we will interpret the NT authors as through they also delighted in obeying it. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Torah of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of the Torah, which means that the view that the Torah is bondage is incompatible with the view that the Psalms and the NT books that quote the Psalms are Scripture.

We need to reconnect with the tradition of the entire church and it’s beautifully rich history in order to understand these things. So we can stop attacking each other and making a mockery of Christ in front of nonbelievers and start spreading the love and truth of God to people who are estranged from God. Blessed are the Peacemakers for they shall be called the Sons of God.
In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarize the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so teaching people to repent and obey it in accordance with the Gospel message is the way to spread love and truth. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not Sons of God.
 
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Guojing

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Is this not Jacob being grafted into the Church of God?

You have to define what you mean by the Church of God here.
Is this not Israel rejecting the Gospel of the Christ? And if not, then who is the "Rock of their Salvation"?

Israel has been rejecting God repeatedly since the OT.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this. When they put Christ on the cross, they were rejecting the Son of God.
 
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Guojing

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I appreciate that you have your adopted religious views, and that you have chosen Hastings as your teacher, and you have indicated that you don't believe much of the Scriptures for various reasons. You are free to believe as you wish, and there are lots of things you post that do align with Scriptures, in my view. But this issue regarding the flesh we were born with, is something that the Scriptures do not support, as I have shown over and over. You seem to believe some of Paul's teaching, so I will post more of his words.

But here, your story changes. Now you are preaching that God doesn't have "ONE CHURCH" that both cats and dogs enter, but two. That the Body of the Christ of the Bible is not the same as the Church of God that Abraham Isaac and Jacob belonged to.

Therefore, "Israel" are those who are grafted into the Holy Tree. They are the circumcision. They are the Body of Christ.
Those broken off, are no longer Israel, or no longer the circumcision. But if they continue not in unbelief and do the works of Abraham, God is able to Graft them back in again, in which case they become a new man, the Children of Abraham and heirs to the Promise, an Israelite.

What a great discussion for men to have, in this wickedest of times.

Firstly, I have no idea who Hastings is.

Next, as I stated in Ephesians 3:1-9, the Body of Christ is a mystery that was unsearchable in the scriptures, before Paul, so I clearly disagree with your interpretation that Israel in the OT is the Body of Christ.

Israel remains Israel, God will fulfill the promises to Israel due to the covenant he made with their fathers and them (Romans 11:25-29)

The Body of Christ is a brand new creation, that is hidden in God, until he revealed it to Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9)

So yes, I am saying That the Body of the Christ of the Bible is not the same as the Israel that Abraham Isaac and Jacob belonged to.
 
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Studyman

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You have to define what you mean by the Church of God here.

Whatever God's Church was, do you believe Abraham was brought out of his family's traditions and Israel was brought out of Egypt to be a part of it? That was my question?

Israel has been rejecting God repeatedly since the OT.

It is true that God was not well pleased with "many" in Israel. But not all Israel rejected God. This is simply Biblical Truth.

Caleb and Joshua didn't reject God. Gideon, Daniel, Shadrack, Meshak and Abednego didn't reject God. Rehab didn't reject God. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men didn't reject God. David didn't reject God. Are these not also Israel? What does the Torah say about Caleb and Israel?

Numb. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

So then, could this be what Paul was speaking to in Romans 2? That "true" Israel is now and has always been one who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do these not become the Children of Abraham, and heirs to the promises?

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai.

Most did, this is true.

They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

This is true, as it is to this day. It is also true that in God's Church those who reject God and His Commandments bring hardship on everyone. The Story of Achan demonstrates this. Is it not also the same in the Body of Christ?

Matt. 5: 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

How is the story of Achan not the exact same teaching? Was Joshua also not commanded to remove the offending member?
Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this. When they put Christ on the cross, they were rejecting the Son of God.

But according to the Holy Scriptures, men had rejected the Son of God, their Redeemer, the Rock of their Salvation, long before HE became a man and dwelled among them.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Even though HE pleaded with them.

Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Didn't Paul teach the exact same thing.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

didn't Abraham also understand.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Didn't Paul teach the same thing.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Isn't the "Our" here, Converted Strangers in the Church of God, the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentiles as Isaiah teaches, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;?

Isn't this what true Israel was from the very beginning?

Gen. 32: 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

So then if I too, refuse to let go of my fleshy struggle with the Holy One, the Rock of my Salvation, until I receive a blessing, do I not also become a New Man? With a new name?

Is this not the Gospel of Christ?
 
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Guojing

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Whatever God's Church was, do you believe Abraham was brought out of his family's traditions and Israel was brought out of Egypt to be a part of it? That was my question?



It is true that God was not well pleased with "many" in Israel. But not all Israel rejected God. This is simply Biblical Truth.

Caleb and Joshua didn't reject God. Gideon, Daniel, Shadrack, Meshak and Abednego didn't reject God. Rehab didn't reject God. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men didn't reject God. David didn't reject God. Are these not also Israel? What does the Torah say about Caleb and Israel?

Numb. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

So then, could this be what Paul was speaking to in Romans 2? That "true" Israel is now and has always been one who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do these not become the Children of Abraham, and heirs to the promises?



Most did, this is true.



This is true, as it is to this day. It is also true that in God's Church those who reject God and His Commandments bring hardship on everyone. The Story of Achan demonstrates this. Is it not also the same in the Body of Christ?

Matt. 5: 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

How is the story of Achan not the exact same teaching? Was Joshua also not commanded to remove the offending member?


But according to the Holy Scriptures, men had rejected the Son of God, their Redeemer, the Rock of their Salvation, long before HE became a man and dwelled among them.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Even though HE pleaded with them.

Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Didn't Paul teach the exact same thing.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

didn't Abraham also understand.

Gen. 22: 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Didn't Paul teach the same thing.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Isn't the "Our" here, Converted Strangers in the Church of God, the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentiles as Isaiah teaches, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;?

Isn't this what true Israel was from the very beginning?

Gen. 32: 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

So then if I too, refuse to let go of my fleshy struggle with the Holy One, the Rock of my Salvation, until I receive a blessing, do I not also become a New Man? With a new name?

Is this not the Gospel of Christ?

The answer to all your questions are found in my second reply to you.

When I said Israel rejected God, I am referring to the nation as a.whole.

God always judge Israel based on the actions of their leaders, even as he always ensures there is remnant that believes in him.
 
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Studyman

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Firstly, I have no idea who Hastings is.

I misspoke regarding the source of the video you posted. I should have used "White". Hastings is another popular religious philosopher of this world whose philosophies have been used as source material.

My bad.
Next, as I stated in Ephesians 3:1-9, the Body of Christ is a mystery that was unsearchable in the scriptures, before Paul, so I clearly disagree with your interpretation that Israel in the OT is the Body of Christ.

The Catholics and Protestants also don't believe in the Body of the Holy One of Israel, the Rock of my salvation that Israel drank and ate from in the wilderness. Nor do they believe Moses when he said "Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.", that this Rock was Christ. Even though Paul said it was. "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Nor do they believe the Jesus "of the Bible" when HE said, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

So your unbelief that Israel was grafted into the Body of Christ, in the Law and Prophets, but rejected His Gospel, like the Hebrews author teaches, " For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." is not surprising.

I am just sharing a perspective of a man who believes "ALL" that is written.

Israel remains Israel, God will fulfill the promises to Israel due to the covenant he made with their fathers and them (Romans 11:25-29)

Yes, as Paul says "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Is this not the Body of Christ that you say didn't exist before Paul?


The Body of Christ is a brand new creation, that is hidden in God, until he revealed it to Paul (Ephesians 3:1-9)

That is what this worlds protestant and catholic religions teach. And the Messianic religion has adopted their philosophy in this matter it seems.

But Paul teaches "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

And both Strangers and non-strangers "that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer"

Your philosophy that there are "Two Bodies", one for Gentiles and one for Jews, might be a popular philosophy, but it seems the Scriptures, when they are all considers, promotes no such philosophy. As Jesus said, men who "do the works of Abraham, are Abraham's Children". And JTB also agrees.

Matt. 3: 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So why would John teach this? It seems Paul tells us, but "many" don't believe him.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


So yes, I am saying That the Body of the Christ of the Bible is not the same as the Israel that Abraham Isaac and Jacob belonged to.

Yes, that is what you and "many" who come in Christ's name are saying.

But the Law and Prophets doesn't teach this philosophy.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house (Is this not the Body of Christ?) shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
 
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Studyman

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The answer to all your questions are found in my second reply to you.

When I said Israel rejected God, I am referring to the nation as a.whole.

God always judge Israel based on the actions of their leaders, even as he always ensures there is remnant that believes in him.

Not in Joshua's time. Remember Achan?

I appreciate the discussion. I wish you would actually acknowledge and discuss the Scriptures posted. But I can understand why you don't.

This has been enlightening for me, and I hope for others as well.

Thanks
 
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I wish you would actually acknowledge and discuss the Scriptures posted. But I can understand why you don't.

I did in several places.

Just because I interpret them differently from you, does not mean I did not acknowledge and discuss.

But Paul teaches....

So why would John teach this?

Yes, that is what you and "many" who come in Christ's name are saying.

But the Law and Prophets doesn't teach this philosophy.

If you want a more fruitful discussion, then stop with the non-stop "the Law and the Prophets/God/Paul/John" doesn't teach this...

Follow my lead, and say instead "From my view, according to my interpretation of scripture, I am saying", it doesn't mean this....
 
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Studyman

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I did in several places.

Just because I interpret them differently from you, does not mean I did not acknowledge and discuss.

This is true, one would have to go and actually read your replies to see that you refused to acknowledge and discuss the Scriptures I posted and the questions I asked.


If you want a more fruitful discussion, then stop with the non-stop "the Law and the Prophets/God/Paul/John" doesn't teach this...

Follow my lead, and say instead "From my view, according to my interpretation of scripture, I am saying", it doesn't mean this....

Perhaps I place too much emphasis on what you actually say. "This preaching by Randy White sums up what I believe about this topic here, if you are keen".

Just a note, when Jesus or Paul promoted their interpretation of scriptures, they always used the Scriptures as support, not the Philosophy of Gamaliel or some other popular religious philosopher of their Time. My issue with the doctrine you are promoting, is not that Randy White doesn't agree with it, but that Moses, the Law and Prophets and the God revealed therein and Paul doesn't agree with it, according to what is written.

That is why I post Scriptures, and ask you questions about them. It wasn't Moses, or the God who chose him, that led men astray. It was the "other voice" in the garden, from the very beginning, that leads men astray.

You justify your belief by posting videos of the Randy White Ministries, whose interpretation you have adopted. The Catholic justifies their belief by the doctrines and traditions created by the Pope and the priests of Constantine. SDA was founded on the interpretations of Miller, and Hellen White. Jehovah Witness religious sect, founded according to the interpretations of Charles Russell. LDS and Joseph Smith, same thing. There is Calvin, Wesley, Valentinus, Arminius, and they all "Come in God's Name", but promote vastly different doctrines.

Yes, there was a remnant that God preserved, in the Examples HE had written from our Admonition, Both Jew and Non-Jew, in fact, before "Israel" even existed, "Whose refuge was the Lord". This Body of believers, including Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Caleb and Joshua and Rehab and David and Samson and Zacharias and Simeon and the Wise Men and many more, were Glorified by God in His Holy Scriptures as examples of God's People. People in whom true Faith existed.

Perhaps Mr. White, or Wesley or Calvin or the Pope, or "Many" who comes in Christ's Name, believes God judges men according to the DNA they were born with. As you also, according to your written statement, believe as well.

"God's people, my people, in scripture always refers to the nation of Israel. And Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 tell you precisely who God will make a New Covenant with. So Hebrews 8:11 could only mean the people stated in those 2 verses. The nation of Israel that you see now, they rejected Christ as the Messiah."

But based on what the Scriptures actually say, and Paul's words defining his interpretation of the Law and Prophets, you and Randy are promoting doctrines of man and not God. Because according to Moses, and the God who sent him, and Paul, as it is written in the holy scriptures;

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

As I have shown, the Law and Prophets agree with this interpretation of Paul perfectly.

You and Randy and the Pharisees may not agree with Paul and Moses, but the God who inspired the Scriptures certainly do.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Thank you for the opportunity to share a perspective of someone who believes all that is written.
 
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Gary K

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This is true, one would have to go and actually read your replies to see that you refused to acknowledge and discuss the Scriptures I posted and the questions I asked.




Perhaps I place too much emphasis on what you actually say. "This preaching by Randy White sums up what I believe about this topic here, if you are keen".

Just a note, when Jesus or Paul promoted their interpretation of scriptures, they always used the Scriptures as support, not the Philosophy of Gamaliel or some other popular religious philosopher of their Time. My issue with the doctrine you are promoting, is not that Randy White doesn't agree with it, but that Moses, the Law and Prophets and the God revealed therein and Paul doesn't agree with it, according to what is written.

That is why I post Scriptures, and ask you questions about them. It wasn't Moses, or the God who chose him, that led men astray. It was the "other voice" in the garden, from the very beginning, that leads men astray.

You justify your belief by posting videos of the Randy White Ministries, whose interpretation you have adopted. The Catholic justifies their belief by the doctrines and traditions created by the Pope and the priests of Constantine. SDA was founded on the interpretations of Miller, and Hellen White. Jehovah Witness religious sect, founded according to the interpretations of Charles Russell. LDS and Joseph Smith, same thing. There is Calvin, Wesley, Valentinus, Arminius, and they all "Come in God's Name", but promote vastly different doctrines.

Yes, there was a remnant that God preserved, in the Examples HE had written from our Admonition, Both Jew and Non-Jew, in fact, before "Israel" even existed, "Whose refuge was the Lord". This Body of believers, including Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Caleb and Joshua and Rehab and David and Samson and Zacharias and Simeon and the Wise Men and many more, were Glorified by God in His Holy Scriptures as examples of God's People. People in whom true Faith existed.

Perhaps Mr. White, or Wesley or Calvin or the Pope, or "Many" who comes in Christ's Name, believes God judges men according to the DNA they were born with. As you also, according to your written statement, believe as well.

"God's people, my people, in scripture always refers to the nation of Israel. And Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31 tell you precisely who God will make a New Covenant with. So Hebrews 8:11 could only mean the people stated in those 2 verses. The nation of Israel that you see now, they rejected Christ as the Messiah."

But based on what the Scriptures actually say, and Paul's words defining his interpretation of the Law and Prophets, you and Randy are promoting doctrines of man and not God. Because according to Moses, and the God who sent him, and Paul, as it is written in the holy scriptures;

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

As I have shown, the Law and Prophets agree with this interpretation of Paul perfectly.

You and Randy and the Pharisees may not agree with Paul and Moses, but the God who inspired the Scriptures certainly do.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Thank you for the opportunity to share a perspective of someone who believes all that is written.
It's interesting to see your personal prejudices come out. Have you ever bothered to study our beliefs, or are you taking other people's ideas on what we believe for the gospel?
 
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Studyman

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It's interesting to see your personal prejudices come out. Have you ever bothered to study our beliefs, or are you taking other people's ideas on what we believe for the gospel?

Had I only mentioned Ellen White and Charles Russel and Joseph Smith, no doubt you would not have replied in such a manner. But because I mentioned philosophers whose interpretations you have adopted, you are now become angry with me.

I meant no disrespect towards you. I simply refuse to choose between the "many" religious sects of this world I was born into, or the religious philosophies of their adopted philosophers, and then hope I picked the right one in the end of days.

I don't think God delivered His Oracles into my own home, for me to adopt the religious views of some random ancient religious philosopher.

I am sharing a perspective of someone who hasn't chosen one of, nor do I support one of, the many religious options available to me in the world I was born into. Paul promoted the religious philosophies of the mainstream God of Abraham preaching religion of his time, and the philosopher's interpretations of scriptures they adopted. He was turned away from such a religion, and from then on promoted only the Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If you have an issue with my understanding of Scriptures, please post them for review and discussion. I have been corrected many times by the Scriptures shown to me by others in God's Love.

But if you are only angry with me, because I don't hold one of this world's religious philosophers in the same glory as you, then be honest about that as well.

I'm glad you shared your feeling with me.
 
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Had I only mentioned Ellen White and Charles Russel and Joseph Smith, no doubt you would not have replied in such a manner. But because I mentioned philosophers whose interpretations you have adopted, you are now become angry with me.

I meant no disrespect towards you. I simply refuse to choose between the "many" religious sects of this world I was born into, or the religious philosophies of their adopted philosophers, and then hope I picked the right one in the end of days.

I don't think God delivered His Oracles into my own home, for me to adopt the religious views of some random ancient religious philosopher.

I am sharing a perspective of someone who hasn't chosen one of, nor do I support one of, the many religious options available to me in the world I was born into. Paul promoted the religious philosophies of the mainstream God of Abraham preaching religion of his time, and the philosopher's interpretations of scriptures they adopted. He was turned away from such a religion, and from then on promoted only the Scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If you have an issue with my understanding of Scriptures, please post them for review and discussion. I have been corrected many times by the Scriptures shown to me by others in God's Love.

But if you are only angry with me, because I don't hold one of this world's religious philosophers in the same glory as you, then be honest about that as well.

I'm glad you shared your feeling with me.
No. I'm not mad at you any more than you're mad at that dispensationalist guy. All I did was ask you if you had actually studied SDA beliefs or had taken other people's word for what they supposed us to believe. There is just as much disinformation, or more, spread around on the internet about SDAs as there is here about the Sabbath.
 
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Thank you for the opportunity to share a perspective of someone who believes all that is written.

You are sharing a perspective of someone who interprets scripture in a certain manner, and you equate that to believing all that is written.

See, you are showing your egocentric bias again. ;)
 
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You are sharing a perspective of someone who interprets scripture in a certain manner, and you equate that to believing all that is written.

See, you are showing your egocentric bias again. ;)

LOL, Easy to say, when you refuse to speak directly to what the Scriptures I post actually say. Just call me a name and maybe I'll go away.

LOL, and presto, It worked.

By my friend.
 
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Guojing

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LOL, Easy to say, when you refuse to speak directly to what the Scriptures I post actually say. Just call me a name and maybe I'll go away.

LOL, and presto, It worked.

By my friend.

I am just explaining to you politely, since you don't seem to get it.

Why do you even think I was calling you a name?
 
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Leaf473

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You are sharing a perspective of someone who interprets scripture in a certain manner, and you equate that to believing all that is written.

See, you are showing your egocentric bias again. ;)
That's how it is with us humans, isn't it? We all have blind spots, but of course we can't see them... That's why they're called blind spots :D

A practical approach I found is to write short posts whenever possible. It's not as easy for our minds to hide when there's fewer words.

Of course, people often respond with, "You didn't address all the scriptures I posted."

I try to remember to respond with something like, "One at a time" :)
 
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That's how it is with us humans, isn't it? We all have blind spots, but of course we can't see them... That's why they're called blind spots :D

A practical approach I found is to write short posts whenever possible. It's not as easy for our minds to hide when there's fewer words.

Of course, people often respond with, "You didn't address all the scriptures I posted."

I try to remember to respond with something like, "One at a time" :)

Obviously, the Jesus of the Bible doesn't share your views regarding fewer words.

Matt. 4: 4 It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And neither does Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You are right about one thing though. It's much easier to pick and choose a few words of scripture for instruction, than to consider all that is written. That's what the mainstream religions of Jesus' Time did. The Jesus of the Bible said though, " these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

I'm not ashamed that I believe all that is written.
 
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