Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

[prodromos]

Show me it then.

Read back through the thread.

 

[trophy33]

Show me it then.

Its in this thread. Go back and respond to them properly. Do not require them to be posted again so that you can ignore them again.

 

[Strong in Him]

How do you know for sure that they are telling the truth ?

How do I know for sure that you're telling the truth?
How can we believe the word of someone who posts a YouTube clip about maps being wrong, says "yes, I have watched this clip" and, only when the clip itself disproves your words, says "Ooops, I made a mistake."?

"Antarctica had thick walls of ice which can't be penetrated because they lead to other worlds. It is guarded by the military".
Yet you won't go to Antarctica and post photos of what you find. You won't even ask a travel agent for details of trips to Antarctica, look at their brochures/information about it, nor watch David Attenborough's programme on the subject.
If you did do the latter and find that what you claim isn't true, you'd no doubt dismiss it as lies/fake.

 

[Apple Sky]

How do I know for sure that you're telling the truth?

As God's truth is my truth, as it is written in Genesis 1.

 

[trophy33]

As God's truth is my truth, as it is written in Genesis 1.

Because you lie, slander and make things up so easily and so frequently, such claims like this are not acceptable.

You do not care about education, not even regarding Genesis 1. You just shoot your personal fantasies as facts - about God, Bible, people, organizations, countries, physics, space, world, photos, videos, history... You are too lazy or unwilling to learn and to verify what is objectively true.

 

[Apple Sky]

You are too lazy or unwilling to learn and to verify what is objectively true.

So what more do I need to learn that is true ? God's word is good enough for me.

 

[trophy33]

So what more do I need to learn that is true ? God's word is good enough for me.

No, it is not.

1. You are not willing to learn even about the Bible.
2. Your "bible is enough for me" is just a facade, your main sources are silly youtube videos of people knowing as little as you do and slandering everybody who brings any evidence, like you do.

 

[Strong in Him]

As God's truth is my truth, as it is written in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 says nothing about a flat earth.
If it did, we'd all believe it.

 

[trophy33]

Genesis 1 says nothing about a flat earth.
If it did, we'd all believe it.

No, we would not believe it. As we do not believe in literal firmament or in literal days. Its a mythological drama from the bronze-age Mesopotamia.

And apple sky is right that the Old Testament cosmology uses the flat earth cultural references of their time. Not always consistently, but does.

 

[Strong in Him]

No, we would not believe it.

Sorry, what I meant was, if God had said "I am creating this earth as a flat earth", if these were God's own words, emphatic and specific. We would accept God's own words.
Of course, scientific experiment/exploration would then confirm this, since God wants all to know him.

 

[Apple Sky]

As we do not believe in literal firmament or in literal days. Its a mythological drama from the bronze-age Mesopotamia.

I don't believe this.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't believe this.

Clearly.
But I don't believe that Antarctica has thick ice walls which prevent us from going into other worlds. Nor that we need to be sure about the shape of the earth in case of alien invasion. And certainly not that being vaccinated keeps the devil happy.
I don't think there are many of us who do believe those things.

 

[prodromos]

I don't believe this.

Did the Sages Know the Earth is Round? - Aish.com

aish.com

In terms of what the Sages believed in, there are actually conflicting sources in Jewish literature. The earliest source on the matter is probably the verse in Job (26:7), which writes that God “suspends the earth upon nothingness.” Thus, the Torah clearly asserts that the world is not being “held up” by pillars – nor is it floating on water or in any of the other bizarre configurations ancient man envisioned. The world is suspended in space. There is a Talmudic passage (Hagigah 12b) which implies otherwise – that the land stands on pillars, which stand on water, which rests on mountains, etc. It is clear though that that Gemara is Aggadic and intended metaphorically. (See the Talmud’s conclusion that the world rests on a single pillar whose name is “tzaddik” – righteous one – meaning that the righteous are the foundation of the world.) The Talmud is thus clearly presenting a Kabbalistic discussion of the world’s purpose rather than its astronomic positioning.

In terms of the shape of the earth, there are actually conflicting sources in the literature. There are a few sources which clearly imply the Sages knew the world is spherical – see Talmud Avodah Zarah 41a, Jerusalem Talmud Avodah Zarah 3:1, and Bamidbar Rabbah 13:17. See also Zohar Vayikra 10a that the world is like a ball and when it’s light on one side it’s dark on the other. (It should be noted that the Greeks had already reached the same conclusion before the Talmud’s time. Also, verses which refer to “the four corners of the land” (e.g., Isaiah 11:12, Ezekiel 7:2) can easily be understood poetically – not unlike how today we’ll refer to the sun rising or setting while it’s actually the earth that is turning.)

There are, however, a number of sources which imply the Sages believed the world was flat, probably disk-shaped. One important source is Talmud Pesachim 94b. There the Talmud cites a debate between the sages of Israel and the scholars of the nations regarding what happens to the sun at the end of the day. The Jewish sages claimed that at night the sun goes above the firmament (one of the layers of heaven, which is opaque), while the non-Jews claimed it goes beneath the earth. Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi, the editor of the Mishna, concluded that the non-Jewish scholars are probably right because bodies of water feel warmer at night than during the day – presumably because they are heated by the sun beneath the earth.

There are several significant takeaways from the above discussion. It is true that the Talmud quotes the Sages as having a scientifically incorrect picture of basic astronomy. The earth would seem to be flat, with the sun moving from one end to the other, rising above the firmament, and then going back to the other side to rise again the next morning. By contrast, the non-Jewish, probably Greek, view has the sun going beneath a (possibly spherical) earth at night, continuing to circle the earth until it rises the next day.

Most important, however, is that the Talmud there concludes that they are probably wrong and the Greeks rights. In other words, the opinion of the Talmud in this topic was not a matter of religious doctrine. There was no tradition from Sinai regarding the shape of the earth – or many other matters of science for that matter. The Sages were simply following what was plausible to them at the time – but they were more than ready to change their minds if the evidence convinced them otherwise. (See R’ Avraham son of Maimonides’ introduction to the Aggadita of the Talmud which discusses this at length. In truth there are many who understand passages like the above one allegorically – hinting to esoteric ideas rather than scientific ones, which were much less a concern of the Sages.)

Thus, although there are conflicting sources regarding what the sages of the Talmud believed regarding the shape of the earth, today such issues are basically no more than a historical curiosity. Although the Jewish people received the Torah from God at Sinai and matters of tradition we accept with perfect faith, scientific matters recorded in the Talmud may well not be traditions from Sinai but no more than a reflection of the contemporary beliefs of the Talmud’s time. Alternatively, the Sages at times employed metaphor, couching their words in the beliefs of their times, to teach much deeper and more profound messages.
​

 

[Apple Sky]

Clearly.
But I don't believe that Antarctica has thick ice walls which prevent us from going into other worlds. Nor that we need to be sure about the shape of the earth in case of alien invasion. And certainly not that being vaccinated keeps the devil happy.
I don't think there are many of us who do believe those things.

Why not ? It's true.........

 

[Strong in Him]

Why not ? It's true.........

Prove it.

 

[trophy33]

in terms of what the Sages believed in, there are actually conflicting sources in Jewish literature. The earliest source on the matter is probably the verse in Job (26:7), which writes that God “suspends the earth upon nothingness.” Thus, the Torah clearly asserts that the world is not being “held up” by pillars – nor is it floating on water or in any of the other bizarre configurations ancient man envisioned. The world is suspended in space.

Job is not Torah.

Job 26:7 seems inconsistent with other biblical places, but the Old Testament as such did not differ from the common ancient cosmology:

The OT shared the general ancient opinion about the construction of the universe [collectively »heaven and earth« Gn 1:1] and combined primitive Egyptian and Babylonian ideas, but did not accept their mythology and cosmogony [the doctrine of the origin of the universe from divine elements].

The universe was three-part [heaven above, earth below, waters under the earth Ex 20.4 sr. Psalm 115:15-17].
The earth formed the center of the universe in the world sea [Ps 24:2], which was touched by the "ends of the earth" [Dt 33:17; 1S 2.10; Jer 16:19; Mi 5,4 et seq.], had the form of a circular mass [Kral. "enclosure" Is 40, 22], supported by rocky pillars [Ps 104,5] so that it does not move...

...Beneath it, if not beneath the sea on which the earth floats, was the underworld, Sheol. Above it was stretched the hemispherical sky [heavens Př 8,27n] like a tent canvas [Ps 104,2; Isaiah 40:22]. It rests on the highest mountains [2S 22.8 »foundations of the heavens«; Jb 26,11 "heavenly pillars"], has gates [Gn 28,17] and vents through which the rain falls [Gn 7,11; 2 Kings 7:2; Ps 78,23n], kept according to Jb 38,37 in sacks, while hail, snow, wind and manna are stored in special chambers [Jb 37,8; 38.22n; Ps 135,7n].

The stars, the sun and the moon were fixed on the inner side of the heavens [Gn 1,14-18; Eze 32.7n]. Clouds sail under the heavens [Ps 147:8], which the Lord uses as chariots [Ps 104:3], and the birds of the sky fly by [Gn 1:26, 28, 30; 2.19n; 6.7; 7,3 and j.].

On the outer side of the heavens, the heavenly waters were gathered [Gn 1,6n; Ps 148.4; Jer 10:13; 51.16].
(Biblický slovník, Adolf Novotný)

 

[Apple Sky]

Job is not Torah.

Job 26:7 seems inconsistent with other biblical places, but the Old Testament as such did not differ from the common ancient cosmology:

The OT shared the general ancient opinion about the construction of the universe [collectively »heaven and earth« Gn 1:1] and combined primitive Egyptian and Babylonian ideas, but did not accept their mythology and cosmogony [the doctrine of the origin of the universe from divine elements].

The universe was three-part [heaven above, earth below, waters under the earth Ex 20.4 sr. Psalm 115:15-17].
The earth formed the center of the universe in the world sea [Ps 24:2], which was touched by the "ends of the earth" [Dt 33:17; 1S 2.10; Jer 16:19; Mi 5,4 et seq.], had the form of a circular mass [Kral. "enclosure" Is 40, 22], supported by rocky pillars [Ps 104,5] so that it does not move...

...Beneath it, if not beneath the sea on which the earth floats, was the underworld, Sheol. Above it was stretched the hemispherical sky [heavens Př 8,27n] like a tent canvas [Ps 104,2; Isaiah 40:22]. It rests on the highest mountains [2S 22.8 »foundations of the heavens«; Jb 26,11 "heavenly pillars"], has gates [Gn 28,17] and vents through which the rain falls [Gn 7,11; 2 Kings 7:2; Ps 78,23n], kept according to Jb 38,37 in sacks, while hail, snow, wind and manna are stored in special chambers [Jb 37,8; 38.22n; Ps 135,7n].

The stars, the sun and the moon were fixed on the inner side of the heavens [Gn 1,14-18; Eze 32.7n]. Clouds sail under the heavens [Ps 147:8], which the Lord uses as chariots [Ps 104:3], and the birds of the sky fly by [Gn 1:26, 28, 30; 2.19n; 6.7; 7,3 and j.].

On the outer side of the heavens, the heavenly waters were gathered [Gn 1,6n; Ps 148.4; Jer 10:13; 51.16].
(Biblický slovník, Adolf Novotný)

As is today & for ever.

 

[prodromos]

Job is not Torah.

Torah | Definition, Meaning, & Facts

Torah, in Judaism, in the broadest sense, the substance of divine revelation to Israel, the Jewish people: God’s revealed teaching or guidance for humankind. The meaning of ‘Torah’ is often restricted to signify the first five books of the Bible, also called the Law (or the Pentateuch, in...

www.britannica.com

The meaning of “Torah” is often restricted to signify the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), also called the Law (or the Pentateuch, in Christianity). These are the books traditionally ascribed to Moses, the recipient of the original revelation from God on Mount Sinai.​

...​

The term Torah is also used to designate the entire Hebrew Bible. Since for some Jews the laws and customs passed down through oral traditions are part and parcel of God’s revelation to Moses and constitute the “oral Torah,” Torah is also understood to include both the Oral Law and the Written Law.​

 

[trophy33]

As is today & for ever.

No, the ancient Egyptian and Babylonians did not get it right. Their concept of the world is not usable for today's global, mobile society. It could work for them, because they lived only in their specific area.

 

[Apple Sky]

I didn't realize there were sea's 6,000 miles in, in Antarctica.

Sir Hubert Wilkins Describes His Recent Antarctic Expedition.​

Hubert Wilkins - Explorer and adventurer. Every school and every parent should educate their children as to his exploits and adventures. A great place to start is the book entitled 'The Last Explorer'. If you don't know of him this book will amaze you.

In this video Hubert states that he flew 6,000 miles over Antarctica & then came across new seas.