Understanding the Trinity

Occams Barber

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Calling them the Trinity or three in one doesn't answer the how but is a theological term of convience to hold a concept we cannot explain.

Damian

Thank you for trying but, if I'm going to be blunt, your answer can be summed up by the above quote from your post.

Effectively you are repeating the "It's a mystery" theme I've heard from almost every response to this thread. You are also in danger of perpetuating the idea that the unknowability of the Trinity somehow proves its existence.

This is the same logic which is used to 'prove' Genesis etc. and other Christian concepts. In saying this I am not necessarily denying the existence of your God. I am saying that some of the concepts associated with God (like the Trinity) appear to lack a reasonable explanation.

OB
 
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Occams Barber

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Occams Barber

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This doesn't mean we can't question these things or ask why, however it does make sense that God is made of a substance we cannot observe or measure since God predates all the stuff we can observe and measure, ergo God is not made of the same stuff we see around us in our space time continum. So we are allowed to responsibly say we don't know and it probably is beyond our ability to know without it being a cop-out.

All you've said here is God is made of 'different' stuff so can't be understood. All you've done is extend the "Its a mystery" theme which runs through almost all responses to this thread. How can you base so much on something you admittedly don't understand. If I don't understand something I don't invent answers.
Before creation when there was only God this would mean God would not be able to love it there was no object to love. And would mean God would need his creation in order to love which would give him limits. Since the concept of God is unchanging and without limits this means love needs to be an innate ability of God well before creation.

None of this relates to the Trinity. It also raises the question of why a being like God needs love (or anything else)
3 is the perfect number because it perfectly contrasts love. I
How and why does the number three 'contrast love' ?

OB
 
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Benaiah468

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It is part of the nature of love that it turns to someone else. In G-d's case, this other cannot be the world; for such a kind of worldly love would be inappropriate. It can only be a ‘person’, one who is equal to G-d in eternity, power and wisdom. However, since there cannot be two G-dly substances, these two G-dly ‘persons’ must form one and the same substance. The perfection of love also includes condilectio, ‘co-love’, in the G-dhead. The best love cannot therefore be limited to these two ‘persons’; it must become condilectio through the desire that a third ‘person’ should be loved in the same way as they love each other. Thus love, if it is perfectly conceived, necessarily leads to the Trinity.

In the Trinity there is a unity of purpose: Father, Son and Spirit have the same plan and work hand in hand to realise that plan. In the Trinity there is also the same love. They love the same things deeply. This is the standard of unity to which we have been called.
 
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Benaiah468

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Christians derive our relational bond as humans to creation through the relationally bound G-d. He exists in love as He is love. We were born of this love and are created to love Him and each other.

Without a G-d who exists eternally in community, as a community rooted in distinction and expressed through communication, we have no basis for love or complete self-understanding. Love exists between ‘persons’, not as a singular capacity or individual attribute. There must be at least one lover and one beloved for love to exist. G-d is therefore love, and we are created because of this love and for this love to be extended to us and through us to one another, cf. 1 John 4:7ff.

G-d is a relational being whose communion of love constitutes His inner communion and explains all His communication. Any consideration of G-d must begin here. In the Son we find the clearest expression and the clearest invitation to know G-d as He truly exists. He is the beloved of the Father, so that in our union with Him through our saving faith we are also loved.

So the invitation is before us to know Christ and to make Him known as one who loves us with an overflowing triune love.
 
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Benaiah468

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Love can never be alone.

The Bible speaks in three ways of G-d as the Creator, the Son as Savior and the Holy Spirit as Comforter. It does not matter how the relationship between the three is to be understood among themselves and in relation to us. It is simply always G-d who is at work.

The three stands for a we in which independence and community are connected, which is based on diversity and shows itself as joy in differences.

We can visualize the Trinity with the pronouns I - You - We. The "you" is only understandable if you assume an "I". The word "I" is initial. In the "we" the "I" and "you" and their relationship to each other are fully recognized.

The dualistic mind sees everything in terms of two, but the Trinity leads us to the law of three instead of the law of two. The law of two is always opposite, the law of three is dynamic and fluid in itself.

The idea that lively and dynamic relationships begin with three is not new.

Sigmund Freud spoke of triangulation in this context. And he describes vividly which individualization processes in the child's development only become possible with the presence of another caregiver. In order to grow out of the symbiotic mother-child relationship, a third person is needed - in his case the father. Only this person makes it possible to break away from the symbiotic mother-child bond and develop the child's autonomy.

As long as we live in a dual consciousness, the relationship with others is always characterized by alliances, complements, and exclusions. We alliances in similarities, we complement each other in our differences, and we distance ourselves from what is alien to us. This means that we are stuck in a dual world. It is based on black and white, right and wrong, above and below. We compare ourselves and judge others to be higher or lower, better or worse. In any case, we can only ever see one side - of ourselves, of others.

If we want to recognize the dazzling facets that are hidden in our blind spots, we need additional perspectives, viewpoints, and angles. And these only come into play with other people. As soon as an additional person enters the relationship space, our self-image and the image of others can become fluid. Suddenly differences become clear and different roles become possible. Limits become tangible - and with them new forms of contact.

Just as our thinking cannot produce a law of physics, it was not a philosopher or myth-teller who produced the Christian idea of the one G-d in three persons. It is more likely to be met with doubt and even resistance because we think of G-d as an earthly ruler in whose person all power is concentrated, which he does not want to share with others.
 
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Benaiah468

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The Trinity is a mystery of faith, one of the mysteries hidden in G-d, which, if not revealed by G-d, could not be known.

We know that the name of G-d in Paleo-Hebrew imagery refers to the Messiah


It can be read: Behold the nail-pierced hands of the man with uplifted hands!

And we know the numerical value of the name of Jesus in Greek, the language of the NT inspired by G-d


But what does the number 888 mean?

Why is the number of Him not 111 or 777 instead?

The infinity sign is a mathematical symbol used to symbolise infinity. It resembles a horizontal figure eight. The infinity sign is also called a lemniscate


The number 888 was chosen by G-d to emphasise His infinity and the truthfulness of the Trinity.

The Christian faith holds and confesses that G-d is 1 in nature, substance and essence and yet He has 3 modes of being


The 888 as 1 number contains the symbol of eternity 3 times.

Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting G-d, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Isa 40:28

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to G-d, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living G-d? Heb 9:14

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:8

Even if the Trinity is difficult for us humans to comprehend, since our visible body consists of matter and the spiritual world is largely closed to us, the name Jesus reveals the Trinity to us in gematrial form every time we read or speak it, so that no one need doubt or ask where the Trinity is to be found in the Bible. Otherwise, we are reminded of the words of the prophet Jeremiah

Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. Jer 33:3
 
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DamianWarS

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All you've said here is God is made of 'different' stuff so can't be understood. All you've done is extend the "Its a mystery" theme which runs through almost all responses to this thread. How can you base so much on something you admittedly don't understand. If I don't understand something I don't invent answers.


None of this relates to the Trinity. It also raises the question of why a being like God needs love (or anything else)

How and why does the number three 'contrast love' ?

OB
if God is the source behind all things it would stand to reason that God exists outside of our space-time and would be immeasurable from our perspective in the inside except where any point of interference happens. we can observe the interference but not the source, science itself would be innately blinded to since it is regarding observation of inside things from the inside. So science can neither prove or disprove God because the space where God would be required to operate must be outside of our own space-time vacuum. This is not a copout answer, it is the logic behind the concept of a God which requires God to preexist and be the source behind our space-time thus separate to. So to talk of God's substance or material wouldn't be of much value as it relates to things we know and even if it did there is no way to access that information. The state of religion requires God to interact with his creation so that his existence can be known which is the role of scripture and various mediums that God speaks through and within Christianity, love is an integral part of God's existence.

We must indulge these views at a level to discuss specifics of theology like the trinity, otherwise, all this is a back and forth about proving if there is a God or not which doesn't help questions as they apply to the trinity as an acceptance of God, even for discussion purposes, is assumed to be able to discuss characteristics of God. So even if you reject the idea of God at least entertain the notion to understand why the trinity is important. With that said I can't explain how 3 in 1 works and don't let any Christian tell you otherwise because it's contradictory but for Christians it's not about establishing the how it's about developing a theological concept of what the bible has revealed and what it values. if those details don't make sense yet this is how scripture presents it then the concept remains in an unexplained state, or perhaps you would prefer to view God like schrodinger's cat except with the cat we can peak in to see the state of the cat, but with God we can't peak. With Christians, we have accepted the existence of God despite not being able to peak over the other side and that's ok with us. if that's ok with you for the purposes of this discussion then we can be more productive discussing the character or nature of God.

The necessity of the trinity is the preexisting state of God requires nothing so anything that requires an object to do that action cannot be accomplished if there is a God described in a single unit (1 in 1) God can indeed love himself but in practice we need an object that's not ourself to demonstrate the fullness of love. so if we describe God as a 2 in 1 you could say each party can love each other so there is a contrast in relationships of 1-2 and 2-1. But even in this love is imperfect as there is no contrasted relationship outside of the single relationship between 2 parties. How does A know what B does is love or hate? or how does B know what A does is love or hate? love needs to have increased contrast for it to be demonstrated perfectly and this is where the economy of 3 in 1 comes into play. Unlike with 1 in 1 where there are no other relationships or with 2 in 1 where there are no contrasting relationships 3 in 1 for the first time introduces fully contrasted relationships. A to B, B to C and C to A. All contrasting each other where love can be demonstrated that cannot happen with 1 or 2 so 3 is the most efficient number to have these innate transitive actions without the need of creating a thing to have it.

Does this prove the trinity? certainly not. but it does present some logic as to why it is needed if we accept that 1. there is a God and 2. God loves us. In order for there to be a God then God does not change, so if his preexisting state has no object to love then love cannot exist even when the object appears and God would exist never loving, and love itself would be an illusion. Obviously, in Christianity, we have a strong value for love so this may be why there is a necessity of the trinity, although it wasn't invented to serve that purpose, as stated it is a word to capture what the bible reveals to us but 3 in 1 happens to be the required minimum number if transitive actions are stated to be a part of God's nature.
 
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