SDA survey: "majority of global church members did not have a clear understanding of the Trinity as consisting of three distinct Persons"

tall73

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Also I would be interested if someone could pull up the data on Trinitarian belief in the SDA churches in Ukraine, which from my understanding, and from the excellent choir music they recorded (indeed its the only recording I have of the less well known sixth setting of the Cherubic Hymn by Dmitri Bortnianski, as opposed to his famous Seventh setting of the Cherubic hymn). Since the SDA in Ukraine are apparently either using Orthodox-derived liturgics, or at least singing our hymns, I would expect to see lower numbers of non-Trinitarians among the Ukrainian adventists. @tall73 do you have any data on this?

Most respondents agreed that the Holy Spirit is God’s power, not a Person in the West-Central Africa (76%), East-Central Africa (71%), Southern Africa-Indian Ocean and South Pacific (65% each) Divisions. The majority of respondents also agreed with this statement in the Southern Asia (63%), and Southern Asia-Pacific (59%) Divisions. Over 40% of respondents agreed with this statement in the North American (41%), Inter-American (43%), and South American (46%) Divisions. In the remaining regions, fewer than one-third of the respondents agreed with the statement, with fewer than 10% agreeing in the Euro-Asia Division (7%) and Ukrainian Union Conference (8%).
 
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tall73

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However the issues @tall73 raised in this thread are not specific to the SDA but seem to be affecting Western churches as a whole.

I came across this data while researching some other elements regarding Adventism. But in the other discussions of anti-Trinitarian views they did reference a similar spike in such issues in other denominations.

Also, as someone who will at times watch long-form debates on theological topics, Trinitarian debates on Youtube seem to be rather plentiful.
 
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tall73

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from the excellent choir music they recorded (indeed its the only recording I have of the less well known sixth setting of the Cherubic Hymn by Dmitri Bortnianski, as opposed to his famous Seventh setting of the Cherubic hymn

Hm, Youtube has several. Though I don't know what is authentic.

 
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The Liturgist

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Most respondents agreed that the Holy Spirit is God’s power, not a Person in the West-Central Africa (76%), East-Central Africa (71%), Southern Africa-Indian Ocean and South Pacific (65% each) Divisions. The majority of respondents also agreed with this statement in the Southern Asia (63%), and Southern Asia-Pacific (59%) Divisions. Over 40% of respondents agreed with this statement in the North American (41%), Inter-American (43%), and South American (46%) Divisions. In the remaining regions, fewer than one-third of the respondents agreed with the statement, with fewer than 10% agreeing in the Euro-Asia Division (7%) and Ukrainian Union Conference (8%).

Given that we know that the Euro-Asia division actively proselytized Eastern (ethnicities like the Slavs, Greek, Romanian, Georgian and Syro-Arabic) and Oriental (ethnicities such as Armenians, Syriacs, Indians, Copts and Ethiopic peoples) Orthodox Christian, and Assyrian (Syriac and Indian members of the Church of the East) populations in countries such as Iran in the early 20th century, and also their Eastern Catholic counterparts (most Eastern Catholic churches coexist with an Orthodox counterpart or an Orthodox ethnic group, and so with a few exceptions such as the Maronites, use the same or similar prayers, hymns and worship music.

So this I think proves my point that the problem facing Western churches is largely a liturgical problem, which started with a tendency of how prayers were structured in the Roman Rite, which while not wrong, adopted a formula of normally praying to the God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, as opposed to addressing some prayers that way, addressing some to the Trinity entire, and addressing still others to God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, all of whom are God and united in perfect love. This rigidity inadvertently gave rise to non-Trinitarian sentiment, in a subtle manner, through the tendency to refer to Jesus Christ exclusively as the Son of God, rather than as God or the Son of Man, even by Trinitarian Christians.

So I think simply making a point to refer to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as God, making sure to preach sermons in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, One God, Amen, reciting the Nicene Creed, addressing prayers not exclusively to the Father but to a each and all three Persons of God, is enough to compensate for this, even in conditions such as those that prevailed in Ukraine during the Soviet Union, when churches were not able to catechize the population to any extent.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hm, Youtube has several. Though I don't know what is authentic.


That’s authentic, so thank you for finding that! It’s less popular than the beautiful Seventh Setting, which is also arguably better, but it is still a gorgeous setting. Bortnianski is one of the great composers of Church Slavonic liturgical music, and was one of the first of the Baroque composers, who integrated four part harmony and tonality with the eight modes (Octoechos) of Eastern church music.
 
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The Liturgist

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I came across this data while researching some other elements regarding Adventism. But in the other discussions of anti-Trinitarian views they did reference a similar spike in such issues in other denominations.

Also, as someone who will at times watch long-form debates on theological topics, Trinitarian debates on Youtube seem to be rather plentiful.

Indeed, the debates are plentiful and painful. I don’t even watch them; I can’t allow myself to get worked up over an issue that was theologically settled by St. Athanasius the Great and St. Alexander of Alexandria, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Isidore of Seville and other Trinitarians, and by the 318 holy Fathers of the First Ecumenical Synod in Nicaea, and by the 150 Holy Fathers at Constantinople, and numerous other saints, such as St. Ephrem the Syrian.

And these Christians experienced severe persecution for their Trinitarian Orthodoxy during the period of Arian rule of the Roman Empire, especially under the reign of Constantius, but which did not end until the reign of Emperor Theodosius I. So ironically, the Church went from being persecuted for believing in Christ, to briefly being tolerated, to then suffering persecution by an anti-Trinitarian conspiracy which denied Christ just as surely as the Pagains, but in a less obvious and more insidious manner, by attempting to redefine our Lord, God and Savior as something other than what Scripture says clearly that He is.

Thus, I beseech everyone: Adventist, Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, to join with me to promote the doctrine of the Holy, Uncreated and Life-Giving Trinity, Three Persons in One God.
 
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jas3

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I came across this data while researching some other elements regarding Adventism. But in the other discussions of anti-Trinitarian views they did reference a similar spike in such issues in other denominations.
I can attest to that, at least anecdotally, in Methodism too. I was shocked when a small group I was leading a few years ago in a study of Met. Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Way expressed confusion with part of the book where Ware mentions that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an inanimate force. One of the group members texted his dad, a pastor, and asked him if it was true, and the response he got was "in a way, yes." I later asked family members about this incident and they were similarly unfamiliar with that fact.
 
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The Liturgist

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I can attest to that, at least anecdotally, in Methodism too. I was shocked when a small group I was leading a few years ago in a study of Met. Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Way expressed confusion with part of the book where Ware mentions that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an inanimate force. One of the group members texted his dad, a pastor, and asked him if it was true, and the response he got was "in a way, yes." I later asked family members about this incident and they were similarly unfamiliar with that fact.

The pastor who said that what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was right “in a way” that the Holy Spirit was a person and not an inanimate force should have been deposed for qualifying it, since this directly contradicts the Trinitarian faith of John and Charles Wesley. But I myself met a United Methodist pastor who was openly Arian (he disagreed with the word homoousios in the Nicene Creed, which is per se Arianism, since the alternatives, heteroousios and homoiousios, are both forms of Arianism that Christians were persecuted for rejecting, by the Roman Empire, during the mid 4th century, from just prior to the reign of Emperor Constantius, until the reign of Emperor Theodosius, when Arianism rather than Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire (except of course under the neo-Platonist Julian “The Apostate”, whose name bothers me because Arianism was already apostasy as I see it, and actually in some respects conditions actually improved for orthodox Christians under his reign, although to be clear, he was a dangerous, sinister and tragic figure, a man swallowed up by the occult and then killed in battle if I recall, driven to destruction by a belief in the most intellectually developed revival of Paganism).

Also we had within the UMC Reverend Jeremy Smith, who runs the deeply disturbing blog “Hacking Christianity,” and who once posted a false article claiming that John Wesley thought creeds were “weaksauce” (sic), which is an utter falsehood considering Wesley specifically included the Apostles’ Creed as a mandatory part of all divine services in the Sunday Service Book for the Methodists of North America, which was his personal recension of the Book of Common Prayer of the CHurch of England, of which he was a priest, and what is more, he is on record as stating that the liturgy of the Church of England, which unlike Methodism still normally uses the creed (Anglican churches in general, including the Episcopal Church, still normally recite the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed , depending on the service, whereas this has become exceedingly rare in UMC parishes in my experience), was the finest in the world, for its rational piety.

By the way, I do love traditional Methodism and I am profoundly upset this morning over what happened over the weekend while I was celebrating Pascha, to the denomination in which I was baptized (the UMC). I feel like the UMC abandoned me. I had no choice but to become Orthodox and I have now been a member of the Orthodox Church for over a decade.
 
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jas3

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By the way, I do love traditional Methodism and I am profoundly upset this morning over what happened over the weekend while I was celebrating Pascha, to the denomination in which I was baptized (the UMC). I feel like the UMC abandoned me. I had no choice but to become Orthodox and I have now been a member of the Orthodox Church for over a decade.
Not to get too far off topic, but I was struck by this as well. I was attending Holy Week services at an OCA church and went to my first Pascha liturgy on Saturday night/Sunday morning. It was a disturbing dichotomy to be experiencing such a rich and faithful time while knowing that the denomination I grew up in was celebrating its fall into embracing sin. If there is any bright side to the whole situation at all, it's that it may have pushed other traditional Methodists to study their theology and church history more thoroughly like it did for me.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not to get too far off topic, but I was struck by this as well. I was attending Holy Week services at an OCA church and went to my first Pascha liturgy on Saturday night/Sunday morning. It was a disturbing dichotomy to be experiencing such a rich and faithful time while knowing that the denomination I grew up in was celebrating its fall into embracing sin. If there is any bright side to the whole situation at all, it's that it may have pushed other traditional Methodists to study their theology and church history more thoroughly like it did for me.

Indeed. I feel we are blessed by the way to have you on CF.com, because before your arrival, as far as I am aware, I was the only active member who had a connection both to Methodism and to Orthodoxy, but historically they were connected. By the way the OCA is the Orthodox Church of which I am a member. It’s not perfect, but it is reasonably good, and there is a nice parish that serves several ethnic groups, as well as a convent with some lovely nuns in the area. And I also love visiting ROCOR parishes and Antiochian parishes and the Greek Orthodox monasteries of Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, who I had the pleasure of meeting in 2015, in a truly special encounter.
 
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