The Ten vs the 603

[Gary K]

It looks like we see that differently, then. I see the law there as referring to all of the instructions given to the Israelites in the wilderness.

In this passage as well

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

So to you sin is not offering a sacrifice a for sin?

 

[Leaf473]

So to you sin is not offering a sacrifice a for sin?

No, sin is lawlessness. Jesus fulfilled the entire law, so we no longer keep the elemental things in it. But we do still keep the principles.

And this is a beautiful summary of the principles in the entire law, as well as the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

No, sin is lawlessness. Jesus fulfilled the entire law, so we no longer keep the elemental things in it. But we do still keep the principles.

And this is a beautiful summary of the principles in the entire law, as well as the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

You have said repeatedly that you see the Mosaic law, ceremonial law and the 10 commandments as an indivisible whole. Why the change of mind?

 

[Leaf473]

You have said repeatedly that you see the Mosaic law, ceremonial law and the 10 commandments as an indivisible whole. Why the change of mind?

They are an indivisible whole, no change of mind. We keep the principles of the entire law.

I think an elemental thing is something like location

Bible Gateway passage: John 4:21 - New American Standard Bible

Jesus *said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

They are an indivisible whole, no change of mind. We keep the principles of the entire law.

I think an elemental thing is something like location

Bible Gateway passage: John 4:21 - New American Standard Bible

Jesus *said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

www.biblegateway.com

So sin is not offering a sacrifice for sin.

 

[Jan001]

I disagree with your reading of scripture. However, and most importantly, the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation have not been fulfilled and they are included by the use of the word all.

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

The prophecies in Revelation were made after Jesus ascended into heaven. They are not part of the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms in the Old Testament.

This is what I wrote:

Jesus came to earth in the flesh for His first appearance on earth to fulfill all the prophecies that were written about Him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. Matthew 5:17 He fulfilled all of them pertaining to His first appearance in the flesh. These prophecies are finished. John 19:29-30 He fulfilled/finished the first covenant (Law of Moses) by His perfect sacrifice on the cross and by this same perfect sacrifice, He mediated the Law of Christ, His new and better covenant. Hebrews 8:6, Romans 10:4, Galatians 6:2

I have edited this all in my OP in order to be more clear. I also added (pertaining to His first appearance on earth) in order to make another sentence more clear. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I appreciate it.

 

[Gary K]

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

The prophecies in Revelation were made after Jesus ascended into heaven. They are not part of the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms in the Old Testament.

This is what I wrote:

Jesus came to earth in the flesh for His first appearance on earth to fulfill all the prophecies that were written about Him in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms. Matthew 5:17 He fulfilled all of them pertaining to His first appearance in the flesh. These prophecies are finished. John 19:29-30 He fulfilled/finished the first covenant (Law of Moses) by His perfect sacrifice on the cross and by this same perfect sacrifice, He mediated the Law of Christ, His new and better covenant. Hebrews 8:6, Romans 10:4, Galatians 6:2

I have edited this all in my OP in order to be more clear. I also added (pertaining to His first appearance on earth) in order to make another sentence more clear. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I appreciate it.

Jesus quoted Daniel and Daniel and Revelation are parallel books on the end times. I don't know if you know this but my Bibles say Revelation is The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jan001]

Jesus quoted Daniel and Daniel and Revelation are parallel books on the end times. I don't know if you know this but my Bibles say Revelation is The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

You did not answer my question.

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

Regarding the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

This revelation came to John shortly before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. However, these revelations that were given to John also contain historical events.

Example:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

The discussion I am having with you concerns the prophecies written about Jesus in the Law of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets. We are not presently discussing the Book of Revelation.

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

 

[Gary K]

You did not answer my question.

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

Regarding the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

This revelation came to John shortly before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. However, these revelations that were given to John also contain historical events.

Example:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

The discussion I am having with you concerns the prophecies written about Jesus in the Law of Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets. We are not presently discussing the Book of Revelation.

Which ones of Daniel's prophecies pertaining to His first physical appearance on earth have not yet been fulfilled?

What does it matter what pre incarnation prophecies have not been fulfilled? They are not all the prophecies in scripture. Have the prophecies concerning those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus been fulfilled? Do you have the faith it takes to cast out demons and raise people from the dead? I certainly don't.

 

[Leaf473]

So sin is not offering a sacrifice for sin.

No, sin is lawlessness

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 3:4 - New American Standard Bible

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

I like how The Message deals with that passage

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 3:4-6 - The Message

All who indulge in a sinful life are dangerously lawless, for sin is a major disruption of God’s order. Surely you know that Christ showed up in order to get rid of sin. There is no sin in him, and sin is not part of his program. No one who lives deeply in Christ makes a practice of sin. None of...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I like how The Message deals with that passage

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 3:4-6 - The Message

All who indulge in a sinful life are dangerously lawless, for sin is a major disruption of God’s order. Surely you know that Christ showed up in order to get rid of sin. There is no sin in him, and sin is not part of his program. No one who lives deeply in Christ makes a practice of sin. None of...

www.biblegateway.com

Yes, and you say the Mosaic law us an integrated into God's law. So therefore its sinful to not offer a sacrifice for sin. How is that when there is no longer a designated place to offer sacrifices?

Deuteronomy 12:10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:*n3

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, and you say the Mosaic law us an integrated into God's law. So therefore its sinful to not offer a sacrifice for sin.

No, because God's law that he gave through Moses to the children of Israel in the wilderness - often shortened to "the law of Moses", or just "the law" - was fulfilled.

But we do keep the principle of the sin offerings by believing in Jesus, his death and Resurrection.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 53:5 - New American Standard Bible

But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

www.biblegateway.com

We are not lawless, Jesus gave us his instruction. It is fully in agreement with the law and the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

How is that when there is no longer a designated place to offer sacrifices?

Deuteronomy 12:10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:*n3

 

[Gary K]

No, because God's law that he gave through Moses to the children of Israel in the wilderness - often shortened to "the law of Moses", or just "the law" - was fulfilled.

But we do keep the principle of the sin offerings by believing in Jesus, his death and Resurrection.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 53:5 - New American Standard Bible

But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

www.biblegateway.com

We are not lawless, Jesus gave us his instruction. It is fully in agreement with the law and the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

So, the law of God is not integrated with the law of Moses.

 

[Leaf473]

So, the law of God is not integrated with the law of Moses.

No, the law of Moses is also the law of God

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 2:22-24 - New American Standard Bible

And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

No, the law of Moses is also the law of God

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 2:22-24 - New American Standard Bible

And when the days for their purification according to the Law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord: “Every firstborn male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice...

www.biblegateway.com

I guess you're going to have to explain your position as you have said repeatedly someone who keeps the 10 commandments must also keep the ceremonial laws.

 

[Leaf473]

I guess you're going to have to explain your position as you have said repeatedly someone who keeps the 10 commandments must also keep the ceremonial laws.

Since the law is a unit, we want to adopt a consistent approach to all of it. If you keep one instruction by the letter, keep them all that way. Or keep them all in principle, but not to the letter.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:18 - New International Reader's Version

None of our faces are covered with a veil. All of us can see the Lord’s glory and think deeply about it. So we are being changed to become more like him so that we have more and more glory. And this glory comes from the Lord, who is the Holy Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 1:2 - New International Reader's Version

Instead, the law of the LORD gives them joy. They think about his law day and night.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Since the law is a unit, we want to adopt a consistent approach to all of it. If you keep one instruction by the letter, keep them all that way. Or keep them all in principle, but not to the letter.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:18 - New International Reader's Version

None of our faces are covered with a veil. All of us can see the Lord’s glory and think deeply about it. So we are being changed to become more like him so that we have more and more glory. And this glory comes from the Lord, who is the Holy Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 1:2 - New International Reader's Version

Instead, the law of the LORD gives them joy. They think about his law day and night.

www.biblegateway.com

What about if it's impossible now as there is no longer a designated temple at which to sacrifice? And it's as if you give yourself a pass for not keeping what you call the entire law. What about Jesus' death on the cross? He told the Jews their house was left unto them desolate when the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. Is it all meaningless that the Lamb of God died for sin? Does that mean that anyone who keeps the Sabbath will not, cannot, be justified as they are sinning presumptiously??

Your beliefs have all kinds of implications that you apparently have never thought out.

Does God see me as giving Him an affront because I choose to keep His law? Do you think He sees me as arrogant and behaving with effrontery for loving Him and doing my best to keep His law? Would I be better off to ignore His law?

 

[Jan001]

What does it matter what pre incarnation prophecies have not been fulfilled? They are not all the prophecies in scripture. Have the prophecies concerning those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus been fulfilled? Do you have the faith it takes to cast out demons and raise people from the dead? I certainly don't.

I don't think either one of us will benefit by continuing this conversation.

 

[Leaf473]

What about if it's impossible now as there is no longer a designated temple at which to sacrifice?

That's why I conclude that the entire law has been fulfilled, as Jesus said he came to do

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:17 - New American Standard Bible

“Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

www.biblegateway.com

And it's as if you give yourself a pass for not keeping what you call the entire law.

No, the scriptures tell me that the entire law is fulfilled.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New American Standard Bible

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

www.biblegateway.com

We can use the phrase "whole law" instead of "entire law", if you wish.

What about Jesus' death on the cross?

I praise the Lord for it!

He told the Jews their house was left unto them desolate when the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom.

And so it was.

Is it all meaningless that the Lamb of God died for sin?

Not at all.

Does that mean that anyone who keeps the Sabbath will not, cannot, be justified as they are sinning presumptiously??

No, we are justified by God's grace. We are all learning and growing.

Your beliefs have all kinds of implications that you apparently have never thought out.

I believe you are drawing conclusions that are not necessary conclusions.

Does God see me as giving Him an affront because I choose to keep His law? Do you think He sees me as arrogant and behaving with effrontery for loving Him and doing my best to keep His law? Would I be better off to ignore His law?

You would be better off dealing with his law in a consistent fashion, I believe

We are all learning and growing. It was the same with Apollos. He was doing his best. No doubt he earnestly loved God and God accepted him. There were things he could learn

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 18:26 - New American Standard Bible

and he began speaking boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the way of God more accurately to him.

www.biblegateway.com