The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

Well, in a sense. The problem here is that she’s not the Almighty Creator. When I say subservient, I mean that God cannot act upon His own will to save whoever He wants. He has to wait to see if you choose Him first before He can decide to choose you.

"Won't" is more correct. By raw power of course God could save whoever, whenever He wants. However God has chosen to save those who come humbled to Him. Also God works in the process of humbling, so He is not just leaving creation by themself to find their own way to Him.

There’s a reason that these pictures are given in scripture. All of these illustrations correspond to things that the audience was familiar with. And the only illustrations we are given in scripture about marriage have to do with the church and Christ. So children as an example does work. When Jesus said you must be born again, it was a very specific picture. People understood how birth worked, so they would all understand the picture of being born again.

Here it's a bit similar to how we differ from each other how we understand the sheep/goat analogy. I don't think what is explained by the analogy is how we are born again without our own consent or decision, all through the decision of God. I think what is depicted is how we by the new birth are washed clean from sin and become like newborn children, clean from sin. The Bible frequently describes the new birth as been washed. It's also a depiction of a new beginning like the birth of a child is a new beginning.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:11

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
— Titus 3:5

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

It looks like you are ignoring this part.

Note: it doesn’t say they were born again as they received Him.

I think it's describing becoming a child of God is the work of God and not our own doing ... and I agree. All we can do is repent, we can't give ourselves the new birth. The new birth is fully the work of God, through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

"Won't" is more correct. By raw power of course God could save whoever, whenever He wants. However God has chosen to save those who come humbled to Him. Also God works in the process of humbling, so He is not just leaving creation by themself to find their own way to Him.

Of course He does. That’s what the new birth is. Remember, “It's the nature of man to resist the gospel.” We need a new nature.

Here it's a bit similar to how we differ from each other how we understand the sheep/goat analogy. I don't think what is explained by the analogy is how we are born again without our own consent or decision, all through the decision of God. I think what is depicted is how we by the new birth are washed clean from sin and become like newborn children, clean from sin. The Bible frequently describes the new birth as been washed. It's also a depiction of a new beginning like the birth of a child is a new beginning.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
— 1 Corinthians 6:11

Where’s the being humble first part?

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
— Titus 3:5

I think it's describing becoming a child of God is the work of God and not our own doing ... and I agree. All we can do is repent, we can't give ourselves the new birth. The new birth is fully the work of God, through the Holy Spirit.

It sure looks like He just went and saved us. Not based on deeds like repenting.

 

[zoidar]

Of course He does. That’s what the new birth is. Remember, “It's the nature of man to resist the gospel.” We need a new nature.

Where’s the being humble first part?

It sure looks like He just went and saved us. Not based on deeds like repenting.

Paul's focus in these passages is on the transformative effects of being reborn by the Spirit rather than the specific process of how one is born again. So there is no need for Paul to tell these Christians they first humbled themselves. He wants to highlight what a grace and gift it is to be reborn.

A passage describing how we need to humble ourselves before we are saved is the parable of the lost son.

It's s general idea in Scripture if we want to have a relationship with God we need to humble ourself. Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. He who exalts himself will lose even what he thought he had (Matt 25:29), and he who humbles himself will be given what he never asked for.

And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
— Luke 14:7-11

 

[zoidar]

Of course He does. That’s what the new birth is. Remember, “It's the nature of man to resist the gospel.” We need a new nature.

Where’s the being humble first part?

It sure looks like He just went and saved us. Not based on deeds like repenting.

Paul's focus in these passages is on the transformative effects of being reborn by the Spirit rather than the specific process of how one is reborn. So there is no need for Paul to tell these Christians they first humbled themselves. He wants to highlight what a grace and gift it is to be reborn.

A passage describing how we need to humble ourselves before we are saved is the Parable of the lost son.

It's s general idea in Scripture if we want to have a relationship with God we need to humble ourselves. Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. He who exalts himself will lose even what he thought he had (Matt 25:29), and he who humbles himself will be given more than he ever dared to ask for.

And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
— Luke 14:7-11

 

[Hammster]

Paul's focus in these passages is on the transformative effects of being reborn by the Spirit rather than the specific process of how one is reborn. So there is no need for Paul to tell these Christians they first humbled themselves. He wants to highlight what a grace and gift it is to be reborn.

A passage describing how we need to humble ourselves before we are saved is the Parable of the lost son.

He was never not a son. So that doesn’t work.

It's s general idea in Scripture if we want to have a relationship with God we need to humble ourselves. Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. He who exalts himself will lose even what he thought he had (Matt 25:29), and he who humbles himself will be given more than he ever dared to ask for.

And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
— Luke 14:7-11

Your assumption here is that had the moral ability to humble themselves. You’re forgetting that “It's the nature of man to resist the gospel.”

 

[zoidar]

He was never not a son. So that doesn’t work.

The son had no longer any inheritance so legally he was no son. What matters is our legal status not our biological status.

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
— Romans 9:8

Your assumption here is that had the moral ability to humble themselves. You’re forgetting that “It's the nature of man to resist the gospel.”

We simply don't agree. You believe we need a new nature to humble ourselves. I believe we need to humble ourselves to receive the new nature. I believe conviction is enough to humble yourself.

 

[Hammster]

The son had no longer any inheritance so legally he was no son. What matters is our legal status not our biological status.

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
— Romans 9:8

The parable is not even about salvation. It’s about judgment of the Pharisees.

We simply don't agree. You believe we need a new nature to humble ourselves. I believe we need to humble ourselves to receive the new nature. I believe conviction is enough to humble yourself.

But a natural man does not accept the depths of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually examined.
— 1 Corinthians 2:14

Why would the unregenerate natural man accept anything from the Spirit?

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18

The natural man is perishing. He finds the cross foolish.

 

[zoidar]

The parable is not even about salvation. It’s about judgment of the Pharisees.

There were many people listening, not just Pharisees. The Pharisees thought salvation was all about doing religious acts and keeping religious laws and Jesus shows what salvation is really about: repentance, forgiveness and a restored relationship with God. I can't see how this can be about judgment of the Pharisees.

But a natural man does not accept the depths of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually examined.
— 1 Corinthians 2:14

Why would the unregenerate natural man accept anything from the Spirit?

The question is what Paul refers to as the hidden wisdom or mystery of God (1 Cor 2:7). They speak this wisdom among those mature in Christ (1 Cor 2:6). It's not all that clear to me Paul means Christ death and resurrection as one of the things of the Spirit no natural man can appraise. Possibly it is. Just saying it's not that clear, especially since the brethren didn't seem to be able to appraise all things of the Spirit either (1 Cor 3:1-2).

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
— 1 Corinthians 2:6-8

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
— 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18

The natural man is perishing. He finds the cross foolish.

In 1 Cor 1:18-21 the idea is those who seek wisdom in the world won't find Christ. The wise, the scribe, the debater won't find Christ, because they seek worldly wisdom instead of Godly wisdom.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18-21

 

[fhansen]

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

When it comes to regeneration, there are two arguments. Or at least two that I know of. One is that we believe, and then are regenerated, and the other is that we are regenerated and then believe. I think the above passage makes a clear argument that we cannot believe prior to be regenerated. The reason is that faith or belief is something that pleases God. Being obedient to Christ’s command is something that pleases God. I also think that believing the gospel and being obedient or things that must be done in the spirit and not in the flesh. And the reason is, as the above passage says, we cannot please God in the flesh.

If the only way to pleaseGod is to be in the Spirit, then the argument would be that one must be in the Spirit before he or she can be obedient to Christ’s command to believe and repent.

I don't think that works. Believers are exhorted to walk by the Spirit, in Romans and elsewhere, as if they might fail to do so by being sloppy, unwilling, non-vigilant, etc.

 

[zoidar]

This isn’t a level of good or bad. It’s a level of knowledge. So the apostate will suffer more than the aboriginal tribesmen that never heard the gospel.

I like to say one more things concerning this. Maybe it's true there are only two degrees of punishment in the afterlife, but would you say Noah getting drunk was equally offensive to God as David taking Bathsheba from her husband? David was punished severely, not so Noah. Why if it was equally offensive to God?

 

[returntosender]

Maybe we are elected and predestined the moment we are saved. I'm just not sure.

Makes sense to me

 

[Hammster]

There were many people listening, not just Pharisees. The Pharisees thought salvation was all about doing religious acts and keeping religious laws and Jesus shows what salvation is really about: repentance, forgiveness and a restored relationship with God. I can't see how this can be about judgment of the Pharisees.

The question is what Paul refers to as the hidden wisdom or mystery of God (1 Cor 2:7). They speak this wisdom among those mature in Christ (1 Cor 2:6). It's not all that clear to me Paul means Christ death and resurrection as one of the things of the Spirit no natural man can appraise. Possibly it is. Just saying it's not that clear, especially since the brethren didn't seem to be able to appraise all things of the Spirit either (1 Cor 3:1-2).

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
— 1 Corinthians 2:6-8

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
— 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

In 1 Cor 1:18-21 the idea is those who seek wisdom in the world won't find Christ. The wise, the scribe, the debater won't find Christ, because they seek worldly wisdom instead of Godly wisdom.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
— 1 Corinthians 1:18-21

That’s not it at all. Keep reading.

For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:22-24

It is only for the called, the elect. If you don’t deconstruct the text, and read the argument in its entirety, then it’s clear that there is one group who will understand: the elect, the called, those who can understand spiritual things. In fact, he says the Greeks seek wisdom, but the implication is that they won’t find it. Your view of man is the same as the Greeks who seek wisdom.

 

[Hammster]

I don't think that works. Believers are exhorted to walk by the Spirit, in Romans and elsewhere, as if they might fail to do so by being sloppy, unwilling, non-vigilant, etc.

So why doesn’t it work?

 

[Hammster]

I like to say one more things concerning this. Maybe it's true there are only two degrees of punishment in the afterlife, but would you say Noah getting drunk was equally offensive to God as David taking Bathsheba from her husband? David was punished severely, not so Noah. Why if it was equally offensive to God?

Since both David and Noah are listed in Hebrews 11, I think it’s safe to say they are both in glory with Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Makes sense to me

How is that election or predestination?

 

[returntosender]

How is that election or predestination?

Why not, what better time?

 

[Hammster]

Why not, what better time?

Never mind.

 

[returntosender]

Never mind.

You know i fail at your deep subjects.

 

[Brightfame52]

the mind set on the flesh describes the natural man, everything he or she does in a unregenerate state is of the flesh, even its sincerity in religion, morality, good manners and so on is still a mind set on the flesh. It has no other choice but to act from the flesh being unregenerate. And as long as we are only in the flesh unregenerate, the indictment is Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[zoidar]

That’s not it at all. Keep reading.

For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
— 1 Corinthians 1:22-24

It is only for the called, the elect. If you don’t deconstruct the text, and read the argument in its entirety, then it’s clear that there is one group who will understand: the elect, the called, those who can understand spiritual things. In fact, he says the Greeks seek wisdom, but the implication is that they won’t find it. Your view of man is the same as the Greeks who seek wisdom.

The Greeks pursue wisdom of the world, the Jews want signs. What God wants is for them to pursue the wisdom of God that comes through faith. How is that the same thing as Greeks seeking wisdom of the world? Paul is again showing salvation is through faith, not by worldly wisdom, not by signs (and not by works Rom 9:31).

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
— 1 Corinthians 1:21

but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:31-32