The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

The Barbarian

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In geometry, a spherical cap or spherical dome is a portion of a sphere or of a ball. Our atmosphere is indeed a dome above our heads from the point of reference of an observer on the ground.
But it doesn't have windows in it that can be opened to let rain fall through. as is mentioned in Genesis. Do you not see that this is figurative, not a literal description?
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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There is currently a spectrum of belief regarding origins, and this is tied loosely to how literal one reads Scripture and/or the degree to which one is willing to allow the evidence of Gods Creation inform their beliefs *about* that Creation. We must keep in mind that every position except the one on top, the Flat-earthers, involves a certain degree of allowance of scientific knowledge to influence Scriptural interpretation.

1. Flat-earthers - believe that a plain reading of Scripture indicates that the earth is flat. Very few still hold on to this belief.

2. Geocentrists - believe that the sun and all the stars literally revolve around the earth. Still a surprising number of these around, although the movement suffered a major setback after the late 60's. They have lots of Scripture and theological bases to argue from, however, and insist that a literal reading of Scriptures requires geocentrism. Ironically, they hold young earth creationists (below) in the same light as theistic evolutionists: those who have let secular science alter their view away from a plain, literal reading of Scripture. A recent shake up over at ICR (or possibly it was AiG) occured when the group finally denounced geocentrism and a number of their contributing members quit because they were geocentrist.

3. Young Earth Creationists - believe that the earth and universe are both young (less than 10,000 years old) and that all the diversity of species is the result of special creation, based on a literal reading of Scripture (even if not AS literal as those above).

4. Gap Theorists (a form of Old Earth Creationism) - Believe that the earth and universe were created at the time science says, but that God created Man and all the animals at the "young earth" time frame. Some believe this is a "recreation", God having scrapped an earlier version (dinosaurs, etc).

5. Progressive Creationists (aka "Day-Age Creationists", another form of OEC)- Believe that the earth and universe were created at the time science says, but that each "day" in Genesis referred to an indefinite period of time. Genesis is a historically and scientifically accurate account, just that it happened over a VERY long time period.

6. Theistic Evolutionists (with a literal Adam and Eve) - believe in an old earth and universe, but accept that God used evolution as part of His creation, basically as science describes it. But they feel that there was a literal Adam and Eve in a literal Garden. Some attribute this Adam and Eve to an instance of special creation, others to election as "representatives", etc. Also believe in biogenesis, not abiogenesis.

7. Theistic Evolutionists (no literal Adam and Eve, but biogenesis) - believe that Man evolved along with the other species (pursuant to Gods plan), but that the initial spark of life was immediately God induced. Some even push this forward to some mass special creation of a variety of "kinds" around the Cambrian period, with all the species evolving from there.

8. Theistic Evolutionists (abiogenesis) - God created everything and established the full system of natural laws upon with the universe and the earth would work. And it did. With life arising at the time and place He had known it would, etc.

A bit of a side category is the Intelligent Design movement of recent years. This asserts that *whatever* you accept about creation, there is firm evidence that the universe and the earth in particular were designed with specific intelligence, by a designer, and not happening randomly. Those holding this opinion come in each of the flavors mentioned above, although the most recent and influential of these have been Theistic Evolutionists (ie, they accept that species evolved over billions of years, including man, but that God directed the process all the way, it was not random or wholly naturalistic).

So, where do you fit in? I dont necessarily want everyone to post their "number", but it is interesting to see it all laid out like this. If any have suggestions or tweaks to make to the this list, go ahead and say so.
Between 3 & 4. According to Einstein, time is relative. If a group got on a spaceship to leave Earth and had a clock identical to one on Earth, and then left and started traveling at close to the speed of light, time would pass differently for them than for those left behind on Earth. The clock on Earth would show much more time had passed than the clock in the spaceship. If the ship returned to Earth after 10 years of ship time, those they knew on Earth would all be dead.

What if the days of Creation were "timed" from the perspective of one at the origin of the point from which the universe began (some might say the Big Bang; I would say when God spoke the universe into being). This assumes the universe had a point origin but that assumption could be compatible with the Biblical account. What would be six days (as in 24 hour periods) at the point of origin would be way different than on Earth. Could six days be the same as 18.6 billion years (scientists now think longer)? I've never done the math.

Why would the Biblical account not just explain this? The theory of relativity might have been a bit much for early man to understand. That said, I also believe God could create the universe with an apparent age. Nothing is too difficult for God. I am only thinking out loud. I do not try and reconcile the Bible with science. The Bible is my guide.
 
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FireDragon76

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But it doesn't have windows in it that can be opened to let rain fall through. as is mentioned in Genesis. Do you not see that this is figurative, not a literal description?

Even if ancient people understood it as literal, we aren't obliged to do likewise.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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There is currently a spectrum of belief regarding origins, and this is tied loosely to how literal one reads Scripture and/or the degree to which one is willing to allow the evidence of Gods Creation inform their beliefs *about* that Creation. We must keep in mind that every position except the one on top, the Flat-earthers, involves a certain degree of allowance of scientific knowledge to influence Scriptural interpretation.

1. Flat-earthers - believe that a plain reading of Scripture indicates that the earth is flat. Very few still hold on to this belief.

2. Geocentrists - believe that the sun and all the stars literally revolve around the earth. Still a surprising number of these around, although the movement suffered a major setback after the late 60's. They have lots of Scripture and theological bases to argue from, however, and insist that a literal reading of Scriptures requires geocentrism. Ironically, they hold young earth creationists (below) in the same light as theistic evolutionists: those who have let secular science alter their view away from a plain, literal reading of Scripture. A recent shake up over at ICR (or possibly it was AiG) occured when the group finally denounced geocentrism and a number of their contributing members quit because they were geocentrist.

3. Young Earth Creationists - believe that the earth and universe are both young (less than 10,000 years old) and that all the diversity of species is the result of special creation, based on a literal reading of Scripture (even if not AS literal as those above).

4. Gap Theorists (a form of Old Earth Creationism) - Believe that the earth and universe were created at the time science says, but that God created Man and all the animals at the "young earth" time frame. Some believe this is a "recreation", God having scrapped an earlier version (dinosaurs, etc).

5. Progressive Creationists (aka "Day-Age Creationists", another form of OEC)- Believe that the earth and universe were created at the time science says, but that each "day" in Genesis referred to an indefinite period of time. Genesis is a historically and scientifically accurate account, just that it happened over a VERY long time period.

6. Theistic Evolutionists (with a literal Adam and Eve) - believe in an old earth and universe, but accept that God used evolution as part of His creation, basically as science describes it. But they feel that there was a literal Adam and Eve in a literal Garden. Some attribute this Adam and Eve to an instance of special creation, others to election as "representatives", etc. Also believe in biogenesis, not abiogenesis.

7. Theistic Evolutionists (no literal Adam and Eve, but biogenesis) - believe that Man evolved along with the other species (pursuant to Gods plan), but that the initial spark of life was immediately God induced. Some even push this forward to some mass special creation of a variety of "kinds" around the Cambrian period, with all the species evolving from there.

8. Theistic Evolutionists (abiogenesis) - God created everything and established the full system of natural laws upon with the universe and the earth would work. And it did. With life arising at the time and place He had known it would, etc.

A bit of a side category is the Intelligent Design movement of recent years. This asserts that *whatever* you accept about creation, there is firm evidence that the universe and the earth in particular were designed with specific intelligence, by a designer, and not happening randomly. Those holding this opinion come in each of the flavors mentioned above, although the most recent and influential of these have been Theistic Evolutionists (ie, they accept that species evolved over billions of years, including man, but that God directed the process all the way, it was not random or wholly naturalistic).

So, where do you fit in? I dont necessarily want everyone to post their "number", but it is interesting to see it all laid out like this. If any have suggestions or tweaks to make to the this list, go ahead and say so.
This thread is so old and yet, people are still responding to it. And it's so old, I can't remember if I already responded to it and if I did, I hope I don't contradict myself. I would have to say I fall between 5 and 6 (maybe a little bit toward 7 too). God bless you.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I am am definitely near the bottom but really see no need to try and reconcile biblical accounts with science.

What we call "creation" is the materialization of a spiritual potentiality. Life and humanity further steps along the way.
 
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Diamond7

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1. Flat-earthers - believe that a plain reading of Scripture indicates that the earth is flat. Very few still hold on to this belief.
I was told that the whole thing started off as a joke. My grandmother was like that. She was sarcastic but she would never let on to people what she was doing. She never told them it was a joke and she would let them take her serious.
 
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Diamond7

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I don't think that God being a deceiver is the only explanation for YEC.
YEC is very easy, even if we go by Bishop Usshers book from 500 years ago. Most all of his 2,000 page books deal with the last 6,000 years of our history starting with Adam and Eve. If ever there was a six day week it would have been Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They showed up in a instant just like that. Of course we are told that God breathed life into them.

It is not science that has to bend to the Bible. It is mans traditions that we have to be careful with. Just as Jesus warns us.
 
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Psalm 27

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YEC is very easy, even if we go by Bishop Usshers book from 500 years ago. Most all of his 2,000 page books deal with the last 6,000 years of our history starting with Adam and Eve. If ever there was a six day week it would have been Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They showed up in a instant just like that. Of course we are told that God breathed life into them.

It is not science that has to bend to the Bible. It is mans traditions that we have to be careful with. Just as Jesus warns us.
But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, because He knew what was in all men...
 
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Diamond7

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But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, because He knew what was in all men...
Jesus quoted what we call the old testament all the time. He not only trusted Himself to the word of God, He was the Word of God.
 
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BobRyan

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YEC is very easy, even if we go by Bishop Usshers book from 500 years ago. Most all of his 2,000 page books deal with the last 6,000 years of our history starting with Adam and Eve. If ever there was a six day week it would have been Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They showed up in a instant just like that. Of course we are told that God breathed life into them.
Yep - that is what Ex 20:11 and its legal code state.


It is not science that has to bend to the Bible.
Then they should stop doing it. Moses was not a darwinist - neither were his readers.
 
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BobRyan

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3. Young Earth Creationists - believe that the earth and universe are both young (less than 10,000 years old) and that all the diversity of species is the result of special creation, based on a literal reading of Scripture (even if not AS literal as those above).

More accurately I beileve in #3 as stated like this -

3. Young Earth Creationiss - I believe that the rocks on Earth and universe are both young (some thousands of years old but not necessarily the same age for both) and that all the species on Earth in Adam's day were the result of special creation (though variants via mutation within basic kinds has occured all along) , based on a literal reading of Scripture every bit AS literal as those above -(but paying attention to more details in the text.)
 
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Diamond7

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It is not science that has to bend to the Bible. It is mans traditions that we have to be careful with. Just as Jesus warns us.
If the days in Genesis are 24 hours, then the earth is only 6,000 years old. At least the Bible only goes back 6,000 years. So what science says about what happened more then 6,000 years ago should not matter at all.
 
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BobRyan

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If the days in Genesis are 24 hours, then the earth is only 6,000 years old.
True for all life on Earth. True also for the Sun and the moon.
So what science says about what happened more then 6,000 years ago should not matter at all.
It is not 'science' it is certain "scientists", it is certain forms of "Inference and extrapolation without test and observation".

Science can make statements about seeds and the life cycle of a plant -- then "observe it" where the cycle is just as described. And they can do that as often as they wish.

but science cannot show you how to take a lifeless planet and then "come up with a rabbit". Nothing in science can do that short of "here is how you move a rabbit from one location that has rabbits - to another location that does not have a rabbit".
 
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JoyAlton

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As a newbie, I was wishing I could 'like' many of the comments then I realized I was not signed in lol. ;)
Great post and interesting! I think I would go more with #8. I would only add that my Latin Rite church embraces a good point that even human evolution is permissible as long as the science does not nullify original sin. BTW, did you know that some of the early church fathers read Genesis as a 'type' for the creation of the church.

For example, Augustine of Hippo, in his work "The City of God, (written 413-426)" draws connections between the six days of creation in Genesis and the stages of the Church's growth and development. He sees the creation of light as a symbol of the spiritual enlightenment brought by Christ and the Church, and the creation of man and woman as a prefiguration of the Church as the bride of Christ.

Another Church Father, Irenaeus of Lyons (circa 180 AD), in his work "Against Heresies," sees Adam and Eve as prototypes of Christ and the Church. He interprets the creation of Eve from Adam's side as a symbol of the Church being born from the pierced side of Christ on the cross.

This is a good time to point out that the church uses 4 senses to interpret Scripture that might prove helpful. These are grouped under two main categories: Literal and Spiritual. The literal stands alone under (1) below and the spiritual includes (2,3 & 4).

Literal Sense:
1. The Literal Sense: The literal sense is the foundation of all other senses of Scripture. It seeks to understand the meaning conveyed by the words and events in their historical and cultural context. It involves examining the literary genre, historical background, and linguistic aspects to grasp the intended meaning of the text. (Note: The literal sense is not what the man on the street would understand. It is, instead, what the author intended to convey).

Spiritual Senses:
2. The Allegorical Sense: The allegorical sense looks beyond the literal meaning of the text to find deeper spiritual and theological truths. It seeks to uncover hidden or symbolic meanings that point to Christ, the Church, and the mysteries of salvation. For example, the crossing of the Red Sea in the Old Testament can be seen allegorically as a prefiguration of baptism.

3. The Moral Sense: The moral sense focuses on the moral and ethical lessons that can be drawn from Scripture. It seeks to apply the teachings of Scripture to guide and shape one's own moral conduct and actions. The moral sense helps believers understand how the Scriptures can provide guidance for living a virtuous and righteous life. (For example, all the wars and killings in the OT can serve to point us to the battles we each experience in our souls and the putting to death of our sins).

4. The Anagogical Sense: The anagogical sense refers to the spiritual and eschatological aspects of Scripture. It looks at the text in relation to the ultimate destiny of humanity and the eternal realities of heaven and hell. The anagogical sense helps believers understand how the events and teachings in Scripture relate to their own journey towards union with God.

Thanks for the post and allowing me to share my thoughts. God bless
 
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JoyAlton

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He didn't trust people...
He also did a great job of re-interpreting the OT for the men of His time. He even changed and added to the OT. For example, when the Law of Moses commanded that the woman caught in adultery should be stoned, Jesus basically replied...we're not gonna do that. Or when He said you have heard that one who commits adultery....but I say to you if a man even looks at a woman with lust.....
 
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JoyAlton

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No first man?
No Moses and no law?
No theme of freedom from bondage?
No curtain separating the people from God?

:eek:

And that's only a few.
Those two books are the very foundations of the rest of the bible. How can it stand if what it's built on is ripped from under it?

All you have left is a rule book :(
There are 4 senses of Scripture interpretation: Literal, Allegorical, Moral and Anagogical. They are all useful. I like that the literal sense does not mean literal as we think of it today as the man on the street would understand. It's what the author originally intended. For example, as the church teaches, it's not as important that a man named Noah is a historical fact as it is to see the allegorical and moral sense that baptism (initially) saves us and washes away our previous sins as Peter allegorized in 1 Peter 3:20-21:

"to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

BTW...I still believe Noah did actually exist :). God bless

 
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BobRyan

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Jesus quoted what we call the old testament all the time. He not only trusted Himself to the word of God, He was the Word of God.
amen.

He told his disciples to teach others what He taught them (Matt 28:20)
 
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