Super Jesus vs just Jesus

[Dennis Thompson]

I was saved in 1972, later becaame involved in the Charismatic movement with all of the bells and whistles. For the next 30 years I was in the Assemblies of God. Then, the Holy Spirit challenged me to prove what I had been taught over the past 30 years within the confines of the new testament after Jesus gave atonement on the cross, as this is where Christianity begins.

For the most part, many of the things that I believed are intact such as regarding ther gifts of the Holy Spirit. But some things I could not find. i had been in a deliverance ministry for 5 years. You know what? There is not one scripture after the cross happens where a born again believer goes through deliverance. Not one. If it were true, you would find it but you cant. This tells me something specific and great happened on that cross. Jesus called it a finished work. Complete.

I can remember praying over born again believers that thought they had generational curses. Well, once again, there are no instances recorded after atonement.

In the heyday of the 70's I remember people saying he or she has the "Spirit", meaning of course that that person had experienced the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit". It was always said that it was like adding a Super Charger to your car. I accepted that for many years. But over time it seemed like just being saved was not good enough, the power had to come from an extra action or experience.

There were scriptures I read over the years that stuck with me..Jesus saying I no longer call you servants, but friends. Then the asll encompassing one...Its not by might, not by power, but by my spirit says the Lord.

Imagine loving someone, only for what they could do for you. Would that grieve you if had friends like that. A lot of us do.I bet it grieves God to a degree. So spiritually we have the empowered, and the lesser because they do not believe as we do. Does God do that? I had to find out.I love God because he first loved me. Miracles etc do not matter. God is God and I am not.

It started making me sweat when outside of Acts, there was barely a mention about the Supercharger experience. If it were intended for people aand God wanted it, why no mention of it? Why all the confusion?

What was Pentecost anyway? It was the Giving of the Holy Spirit to mankind. Given to the world to Convict and point to Jesus and for the believer to indwell, comfort and teach us all things.

Then I started watching people. The Charismatics had the same ups and downs as anyone else nomatter how much binding and loosing, how much so called faith they spewed out.

The word says to be daily renewed in our minds. To read God's word. To encourage each other. It tells us to spend time with the aHoly Spirit. The more I watched, the more I noticed that the people who had calmness and direction and focus were those that did these things, not people claiming an experience.

I came to the conclusion that Pentecost was just the giving. When you are saved, you receive the Holy Spirit. He resides in you. If we allow him to live through us, we are experiencing what Apostle Paul did. Real Christianty.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Isn't the childrens bread meant for the children not the dogs?

 

[Yahu]

I was saved in 1972, later becaame involved in the Charismatic movement with all of the bells and whistles. For the next 30 years I was in the Assemblies of God. Then, the Holy Spirit challenged me to prove what I had been taught over the past 30 years within the confines of the new testament after Jesus gave atonement on the cross, as this is where Christianity begins.

For the most part, many of the things that I believed are intact such as regarding ther gifts of the Holy Spirit. But some things I could not find. i had been in a deliverance ministry for 5 years. You know what? There is not one scripture after the cross happens where a born again believer goes through deliverance. Not one. If it were true, you would find it but you cant. This tells me something specific and great happened on that cross. Jesus called it a finished work. Complete.

And what exactly was the 'it' that was 'finished'? So many people read what ever they want into that statement out of ignorance. Do you know that the high priest of Israel says 'It is finished' when the last lamb is sacrificed on Passover. That lamb is the national lamb. It was the sacrifice that was finished, the last one needed.

Was 'everything' finished? NO! The Passover was fulfilled. There are other feasts to be fulfilled at the 2nd coming. The sacrifical system was fulfilled with the ultimate sacrifice. Does that imply all of Yah's works are finished?

 

[Dennis Thompson]

Hmmn lol. Finished means complete. A Priest having an action taken and completeing it is a far cry from Jesus saying it is complete. That is mentioned in the scriptures when it speaks of the list of priests and says that now that Jesus come, there will be no more need for any priest in the order of Melchedek(Sp)

Jesus said to be Holy as he is Holy. A better translation is complete. We can do something to be holy or righteous? No we can not or Jesus never need come. Our completeness, righteousness is found in faith in him. Thats it.

That sacrifice you speak of meant the sin of the world, past present aand future was gone, it also meant that all curses are broken because he becaame a curse for us. It also meant we are no longer justified by being a law keeper. It also happened that the veil in the Holy of Holies was broken aand now we as humans could have a personal relationship with him. There was no longer this great chasim. A lot happened, and that is why many things that were taught in the Law Covenant no longer exist in the Grace Covenant. You will not find the Christian Heritage in the law.You will find Jesus talked about. You will find the Prophecy of how ricght and wrong is written on the believers hearts, but no justification or life ever came out of the law.

 

[weariedsoul]

I was saved in 1972, later becaame involved in the Charismatic movement with all of the bells and whistles. For the next 30 years I was in the Assemblies of God. Then, the Holy Spirit challenged me to prove what I had been taught over the past 30 years within the confines of the new testament after Jesus gave atonement on the cross, as this is where Christianity begins.

We get the lords spirit when God gives it, its by that spirit that we confess Jesus is Lord. Yet Jesus said that if we love him that we will keep his commandments, and if we do then the father and the son will come in and make their home in us too. That's all 3

And i agree about meditating on the scriptures, praying, spending time talking to the Lord, this is how we worship Him. Paul says iff we do the things he teaches then the God of peace will be with us, this makes sense seeing how paul also says that he teaches the Lords commandments. So paul is teaching the same as Jesus taught, and he teaches us how to abide in the lord by obeying the Lords teaching, then and only then will he and the father abide in us.

Thats what the scriptures say.

 

[weariedsoul]

Hmmn lol. Finished means complete. A Priest having an action taken and completeing it is a far cry from Jesus saying it is complete. That is mentioned in the scriptures when it speaks of the list of priests and says that now that Jesus come, there will be no more need for any priest in the order of Melchedek(Sp)

Jesus said to be Holy as he is Holy. A better translation is complete. We can do something to be holy or righteous? No we can not or Jesus never need come. Our completeness, righteousness is found in faith in him. Thats it.

That sacrifice you speak of meant the sin of the world, past present aand future was gone, it also meant that all curses are broken because he becaame a curse for us. It also meant we are no longer justified by being a law keeper. It also happened that the veil in the Holy of Holies was broken aand now we as humans could have a personal relationship with him. There was no longer this great chasim. A lot happened, and that is why many things that were taught in the Law Covenant no longer exist in the Grace Covenant. You will not find the Christian Heritage in the law.You will find Jesus talked about. You will find the Prophecy of how ricght and wrong is written on the believers hearts, but no justification or life ever came out of the law.

Holy just means "set apart", i think so anyway. So its not that we are becoming self righteous by living in holiness, it just means we are obeying the Lords teaching. Marriage for example is holy, we are not righteous because we get married, we are set apart from the world of fornicators.

 

[Dennis Thompson]

The word saids we are righteous in God's eyes because of Jesus. The Holy Spirit enters at Salvation. Salvation is by Faith alone in him.

 

[weariedsoul]

The word saids we are righteous in God's eyes because of Jesus. The Holy Spirit enters at Salvation. Salvation is by Faith alone in him.

Amen.

 

[Simon_Templar]

First of all, i was raised charismatic but i have a lot of issues with the charismatic movement and the things that are commonly taught, though i believe in the gifts of the Spirit etc.

Secondly, studying the new testament in separation from the old is a huge mistake. I guarantee you that you will not, indeed cannot understand the new testament without a deep and solid grounding in the old.

Thirdly, Yahu is right about the statement on the cross "it is finished". This is almost universally misunderstood by protestant christians. The crucifixion was the conclusion of the passover meal that Jesus had the night before. Jesus was to be the Passover sacrifice and as a result he deliberately left the passover ceremony incomplete on the night of the last supper. He deliberately did not drink the fourth cup which concludes the passover meal.

This is what he was talking about in the garden of gethsemene when he prayed to the Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, but never the less not my will but yours be done.

Jesus drank the fourth cup when he was on the cross and he cried out "I thirst!" The people near held up a sponge with sour wine and gall and he drank it. Immediately after drinking this, he said "it is finished". He was referring specifically to the passover meal, and thus the passover sacrifice.

It is finished does not refer to the work of redemption or atonement. In fact it cannot biblically do so, because the bible teaches clearly that the resurrection was a necessary part of that work. Thus it was not finished on the cross.

 

[now faith]

I was saved in 1972, later becaame involved in the Charismatic movement with all of the bells and whistles. For the next 30 years I was in the Assemblies of God. Then, the Holy Spirit challenged me to prove what I had been taught over the past 30 years within the confines of the new testament after Jesus gave atonement on the cross, as this is where Christianity begins.

For the most part, many of the things that I believed are intact such as regarding ther gifts of the Holy Spirit. But some things I could not find. i had been in a deliverance ministry for 5 years. You know what? There is not one scripture after the cross happens where a born again believer goes through deliverance. Not one. If it were true, you would find it but you cant. This tells me something specific and great happened on that cross. Jesus called it a finished work. Complete.

I can remember praying over born again believers that thought they had generational curses. Well, once again, there are no instances recorded after atonement.

In the heyday of the 70's I remember people saying he or she has the "Spirit", meaning of course that that person had experienced the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit". It was always said that it was like adding a Super Charger to your car. I accepted that for many years. But over time it seemed like just being saved was not good enough, the power had to come from an extra action or experience.

There were scriptures I read over the years that stuck with me..Jesus saying I no longer call you servants, but friends. Then the asll encompassing one...Its not by might, not by power, but by my spirit says the Lord.

Imagine loving someone, only for what they could do for you. Would that grieve you if had friends like that. A lot of us do.I bet it grieves God to a degree. So spiritually we have the empowered, and the lesser because they do not believe as we do. Does God do that? I had to find out.I love God because he first loved me. Miracles etc do not matter. God is God and I am not.

It started making me sweat when outside of Acts, there was barely a mention about the Supercharger experience. If it were intended for people aand God wanted it, why no mention of it? Why all the confusion?

What was Pentecost anyway? It was the Giving of the Holy Spirit to mankind. Given to the world to Convict and point to Jesus and for the believer to indwell, comfort and teach us all things.

Then I started watching people. The Charismatics had the same ups and downs as anyone else nomatter how much binding and loosing, how much so called faith they spewed out.

The word says to be daily renewed in our minds. To read God's word. To encourage each other. It tells us to spend time with the aHoly Spirit. The more I watched, the more I noticed that the people who had calmness and direction and focus were those that did these things, not people claiming an experience.

I came to the conclusion that Pentecost was just the giving. When you are saved, you receive the Holy Spirit. He resides in you. If we allow him to live through us, we are experiencing what Apostle Paul did. Real Christianty.

Well there you are, now your a Baptist

 

[Dennis Thompson]

Nope, just a believer. I do not believe there is a second act, if that were true, it would have been plastered all over the place.After 30 years of Charismatic following, I find most of it to be a mixture of a dead law covenant with a real grace covenant, which makes it very mislead and controlling. The truth is found after the cross.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Nope, just a believer. I do not believe there is a second act, if that were true, it would have been plastered all over the place.After 30 years of Charismatic following, I find most of it to be a mixture of a dead law covenant with a real grace covenant, which makes it very mislead and controlling. The truth is found after the cross.

This is one of the problems of trying to derive doctrine from narrative. Just because something happened one way once doesnt m ean it can only happen that way. Likewise just because something didnt happen, doesnt mean it cant or shouldnt happen.

There was at least one incidence in scripture in which the baptism of the spirit occured seperate from salvation. This was when the gospel first came to samaria in acts. They converted but they didnt receive the spirit until john and peter came up to lay hands on them.

In general the idea of baptism in the Spirit is simply the charismatic pentecostal version of the sacrament of confirmation.

However, even after this a person can receive renewals and refreshments in which the Spirit is poured out on them again. This isnt a new event, it is simply a renewing or a continuation of the original.

 

[Dennis Thompson]

yes... in Acts. That is my point. You also do not find it elsewhere and if it were important it certainly would have been spoken of. God is not an elitist. People make it that way, but that is people. Christianity is found after stonement on the cross, not before. It is also where you find the covenant that we have. Pentecost happened roughly 40 days aftyer the ressurection. It was the final installment, the giving of the Holy Spirit. In Matthew Jesus told them that they would not die before he returned. In another Scripture Jesus said that if you had seen him you had seen the father. Using a trinity conclusion, the same could be the same about the Holy Spirit. Penetecost was a return of Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit which was a fulfillment of his statement in Matthew stating that those there would not die before he returned.

 

[TasManOfGod]

First of all, i was raised charismatic but i have a lot of issues with the charismatic movement and the things that are commonly taught, though i believe in the gifts of the Spirit etc.

Secondly, studying the new testament in separation from the old is a huge mistake. I guarantee you that you will not, indeed cannot understand the new testament without a deep and solid grounding in the old.

Thirdly, Yahu is right about the statement on the cross "it is finished". This is almost universally misunderstood by protestant christians. The crucifixion was the conclusion of the passover meal that Jesus had the night before. Jesus was to be the Passover sacrifice and as a result he deliberately left the passover ceremony incomplete on the night of the last supper. He deliberately did not drink the fourth cup which concludes the passover meal.

This is what he was talking about in the garden of gethsemene when he prayed to the Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, but never the less not my will but yours be done.

Jesus drank the fourth cup when he was on the cross and he cried out "I thirst!" The people near held up a sponge with sour wine and gall and he drank it. Immediately after drinking this, he said "it is finished". He was referring specifically to the passover meal, and thus the passover sacrifice.

It is finished does not refer to the work of redemption or atonement. In fact it cannot biblically do so, because the bible teaches clearly that the resurrection was a necessary part of that work. Thus it was not finished on the cross.

In the old covenent was healing included in what was covered after the fourth cup of the high priest

 

[Simon_Templar]

In the old covenent was healing included in what was covered after the fourth cup of the high priest

hmm I'm not sure what you are getting at. I don't know off hand if there was any Jewish tradition regarding this specifically, as recorded in the mishnah or talmud etc. but to my knowledge I'm not aware off the top of my head of any promises in the OT that specifically link physical healing to the Passover meal. Not saying there aren't any, I just don't know.

Passover was one of two ceremonies, or rituals, that marked people as members of the covenant, and members of the nation of Israel. The other being circumcision. If you did not have circumcision, and did not participate in the Passover, you were literally cut off from the covenant and from Israel.

For this reason participation in Passover was probably the most important individual and familial religious requirement in Israel.

The Passover was unique as well in that it literally created the unity of Israel as God's people.
As Paul teaches in 1st Corinthians, anyone who eats of the sacrifice participates in the alter. The Passover was the only sacrifice that all Israelites participated in and ate of. This is why if a person did not participate in Passover, they were essentially excommunicated from Israel.

Another key aspect of this idea of participation is found in the commandment in Exodus 13 that at every Passover the Father must tell his children that the Passover is because of what the Lord did for me when he brought me up out of Egypt. This was believed to be literal spiritual truth by the Israelites and that by participating in the Passover, each man must regard himself as though he personally participated in the original Passover, and came up out of Egypt.

So all of Israel was bound together by the Passover, and each Israelite by participating in the Passover, was made part of the covenant, part of the sacrifice, and participated in the original deliverance from Egypt.

Another feature of Passover was that it had to be eaten within the city of Jerusalem. This was because Jerusalem was, for the purpose of Passover, considered to be an extension of the temple, and as a sacrifice Passover had to be eaten within the temple.

all of that is meant to be understood as part of our redemption at the cross, and also part of the Passover of the new covenant with is Communion.

 

[Dennis Thompson]

What did Jesus say about tradition?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:13)

He said that it makes the word of God of none effect

 

[weariedsoul]

What did Jesus say about tradition?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:13)

He said that it makes the word of God of none effect

Amen.

 

[weariedsoul]

I was agreeing with what Jesus said, i'm not sure what you guys are referring to though.

 

[Dennis Thompson]

Christianity is simple. Saved by faith based in his grace for us. Be an abider, which means trading in your life for his and allowing him to live through you. It is not by might or power(our efforts) but by his Spirit

 

[MikeBigg]

But some things I could not find. i had been in a deliverance ministry for 5 years. You know what? There is not one scripture after the cross happens where a born again believer goes through deliverance. Not one. If it were true, you would find it but you cant.

Interesting observation.

What do we get from this? That deliverance ministry for Christians is not needed? (in which case how do we explain the manifestations and the improved lived of Christians who go through this ministry?)

or is it that we don't do the conversion thing right? Are the demons supposed to leave at conversion?

Mike