Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

[d taylor]

I think it's an extreme and misguided view of Ephesians as the text is contrasted by St Peter and Saint James. At the end of Ephesians 2 (from which you quoted):

20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

The reason I have sighted these verses is because it says "Build upon the foundation of the Apostles," and in this we are reminded that we are building a Church, not just telling ourselves that we believe. It's "through faith so it would seem that we must respond to the call of free salvation. We respond with faith. We don't tell ourselves we believe and go back to the corner drugging and prostitute thinking that we are believers.

The Bible is a big book and there are many chapters and verses. It seems to me a bit extreme to believe that Ephesians 2 is the only thing we must consider when interpreting scripture. Scripture does not go against scripture but one must go through all of the gospels and epistles, comparing and contrasting them to get the bigger picture. Meaning that there is more to living a Christian life than simply "believe."

It's saved "through faith," so let's see what the NT has to say about faith:

James 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Is this statement of James (the brother of Christ) to be completely disregarded?

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Meaning, that one must LIVE in faith, not just believe but LIVE which would seem to indicate that we must act in faith in order to be faithful

1 John 5:4- For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

This verse would seem to indicate that the granting of faith to us by God, should be applied to our lives to overcome "the world." It doesn't (to me) indicate that one must only believe they are saved but they must also strive to "overcome the world."

Hebrews 11:7 - By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

This verse seems to clarify that Noah took action in faith, he didn't simply believe that an ark would be built but he had the faith to build an ark. This highlights that faith we show and prove and it is practical for not only the afterlife but the world we live in now. As Noah's faith (granted by God), drove him to build the ark, we must also through faith (granted by God), live and take action through that faith.

As St James said:
James 2:18-22 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Did St James the brother of Jesus have no clue what he was talking about or should we take this scripture as a lesson?

Not to keep beating a dead horse but in light of these scriptures, is only belief required or faith? Secondly, should our faith be alive or dead? See, this is the problem with an individual, according to their own interpretation of scripture found their own church or denomination with no consensus as to the merit of their interpretation. I feel more comfortable with the interpretation of the early church fathers who's bishops from across the known world found a consensus on how the word is to be interpreted. One (or many) churches base their interpretation of scripture on their own understanding when the Bible clearly says "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight." I prefer to lean on the understanding of the global community of bishops instead of one man who had some new ideas on how to interpret the Bible.


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James is addressing believers and warning them to not let their faith become dead faith. That does not mean they are no longer a born again child of God if their faith becomes dead. There is not a single verse giving any indication of this.

The verse addressing can dead faith save him. Is not addressing Eternal Life salvation, this is addressing a physical life salvation that God will give the believer who is faithful and serving God. If the believer is not living an active faith, God may let the believer loose their earthly life.

Paul speaks to this:
But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long suffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Paul states The Lord delivered me, that is the same as saying The Lord saved me.

Plus the verses in James you posted
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Are addressing the justification before men. God knows what men believe and who has believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. God does not need to see mans works to know whether a person is a believer or not.

But men can not see into a mans heart to see if a person is a believer. So man needs to see believers action or works to see is this person a believer. If the believer has a alive active faith, then man can believe this person must be justified or must be a believer in Jesus.

 

[Danthemailman]

Jesus overcame sin, death itself, and hell on our behalf. We overcome all those things because He overcame them. Thinking that we will rule with Him because we perform like He performed is not written anywhere in Scripture, it is unattainable, and dissrespectful.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. To Christ be the glory! 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. It's not about our performance, but our faith. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His performance and not ours. (Romans 3:24-28) To Christ be the glory!

 

[rturner76]

This verse ('s) describe you, you have posted verse after verse but of course non have addressed receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. So you are searching the scriptures, but the verses which state belief in Jesus you avoid.

As for judgement i see why you think you will be judged to see if you will make it to heaven. Because you are basing your acceptance on your obedience to the church and what they teach. But again i will not be judged, Jesus promises all who believe in Him will not come into judgment and has passed from death to life.

Not exactly, one thing that I did talk about is that the gift of faith is free. Now that one has faith, will there be changes to one's life? It's not that your actions are ALL one gets judged by. Question: If one believes, is granted faith but they make no effort to repent or change their sinful life in any way, how valid is that faith? I think what you have been taught, takes some Bible verses out of context. For example, one of the most famous verses that justifies that there is no need to follow God.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is a profound verse because it also supports what I am trying to teach By grace we have been saved through faith. We are granted the free gift of grace which allows us to have faith. We cannot separate grace from faith. Since we are granted faith, we are capable of following him. Having said that, what else do we know about faith as it is a topic of many writers. Let's see

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
This is something that Jesus doesn't just request of us but he commands it of us. That would seem to indicate that once one professes to believe and are granted faith, our lives don't end there. So the question becomes, do you just believe you are a Christian or are you a Christian. In secular terms, if someone is a plumber, they fix pipes, if someone is a teacher, they teach others, The same way with Christianity a Christian acts like a Christian. Now the Bible doesn't say that we must do this activity on these days or that we must be perfect. The point is if one is a Christian, should they not act like one? Again

John 14:15 - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
1 Peter 1:14 - As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance
Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men
Luke 6:46 - “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
John 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Over and over it says to obey. The way people have been taught to interpret some of the key verses on free grace, does not take into consideration the entirety of the New Testament. REMAIN IN MY LOVE IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and many others point to the fact that we are to respond to the call of the Christian path. It's not a one time decision that saves from all sin. It is living in obedience to Jesus Christ which is only made possible by the free gift. That is why I believe that decisions about how to interpret sacred scripture is by a consensus of the global community of bishops rather than the thesis of one man.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That makes sense because if you never believed, you have never been granted faith. However, this one verse doesn't suss out the whole path to a life of Christian faith (by grace through faith). We are reminded that we must believe but what does that belief do? What is it for? What does it mean? Other parts of the Bible answer that question throughout the New Testament. It is better to contrast the New Testament rather than putting all of one's belief in a distorted interpretation of part of a Bible verse.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

This verse is a nice snapshot of the "proof texts." you held up in a misinterpreted and fragmented of two or three writings.

The only judgment, a believer in Jesus, will face is the judgment seat of The Messiah, which is a judgment for the loss or gain of rewards. This judgment is not a judgment to see if they were obedient enough to go to heaven. As at the very moment of belief in Jesus the believer crosses over permanently from death to life.

It's not about "were they obedient?" It's more about "what did you do with the free gift of grace (through faith) in your daily life. I put forward the notion that it's more important to BE a Christian than to believe one is a Christian though they have taken no steps to repent nor live their lives as Christians. I believe it would be more productive to base one's theology on the entirety of the Bible than a few pieces from a few verses that have been misinterpreted in the first place. Again I say this with the knowledge that the early Church approved the Biblical as a global consensus of bishops which represent all of the major churches in the known world. I put much more stock in their consensus that one guy who wrote a thesis based on his own understanding and not the understanding of the universal Church. As for me, I prefer to follow the commands of Christ as he is the founder of the universal with St Peter being nominated as "the Rock" of the Church with the power and insight given by Christ directly to him through the command lais down that said "You are the Rock and on this Rock, I will build my Church."

So the ultimate question is are you a Christian or a Paulian? Do you believe what Paul has to say is more important than what Christ has to say?

For example:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will obey what I command.”
John 14:21 “Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me… .”
1 John 2:5-6 “But if anyone obeys His word, God’s love is truly made complete in Him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.”
"Whosoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
Do you see there "you must walk" not just "believe."

How many times and in how many places of quotations prove your interpretation of two or three verses of the Bible are distorted to gather to John Calvin's ) a lawyer, not even a seminarian) view on scripture

Do you really claim that John Calvin (or one of his contemporaries} are able to discern Christ's writings better than Christ or the disciples that learned at his feet? Are you a Calvian, a Paulian, or a Christian. The reason I ask is because Jesus said:
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Does St James have no idea what he was talking about?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Luke 11:28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!

This is barely scratching the surface of the dozens of texts that declare that we must not only believe in Christ but:
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

How many more passages from pretty much every book in the New Testament do you need to read in order to see that "grace alone." with no other caveats or explanations about how faith goes with obedience? Do you see what the Bible actually says or do you choose to follow the indoctrination of one man who wrote an essay rather than Apostle who wrote the Bew Testament of the Bible? Again, are you a Calvinist, Lutheran, Zwengliist, Arminian, or a Christian (meaning following Christ's commandments)? Who are you betting your would with, St Paul or our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Your answer will indicate if you believe what God said over what Paul said (Paul, who happened to have killed a number of Christian Jews under Pagan Roman authority.? The two half-verses that it seemed you've been indoctrinated to believe no matter what else you have read, or do you trust the entirety of the Bible for truth?

Not trying yo rag on you, I really want to see what you stand for, the couple verses Paul wrote which have been taught to be more important than anything else in the Bible, or the actual Bible where Jesus tells us directly what to do? I am dumbfounded by this logic that says Paul the Jew killer is more important to follow than Christ or his actual desciples

 

[rturner76]

James is addressing believers and warning them to not let their faith become dead faith. That does not mean they are no longer a born again child of God if their faith becomes dead. There is not a single verse giving any indication of this.

Was he wrong in saying not to let their faith become dead. IMO saying you believe in Christ grants you the faith needed to do his will (to the best of your ability). Does James say "just say you believe and your seat in heaven is guaranteed? No James is warning us to not loose faith. indicating that faith bears fruit. What does dead faith bear? I guess it doesn't matter because as long as you tell God in your mind that you believe, you can remain a Pagan right, because your actions have absolutely no bearing on your salvation. I'm sorry for believing as James does that when you claim to be a Christian, you should then actually become a Christian.

The verse addressing can dead faith save him. Is not addressing Eternal Life salvation,

This is where Protestant interpretation adds whatever meaning they need to whatever verse they are reading to confirm a false interpretation of another half-verse that has been misinterpreted. Nah I think we should do what Jesus says throughout the Bible instead of staking our souls on a misinterpreted half verse of scripture shaping one's entire spiritual identity. Be a Christian, don't just say you are Christian.

But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long suffering, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Paul states The Lord delivered me, that is the same as saying The Lord saved me.

Did the Lord deliver him because he had faith or because he just said he had faith in his head? No prayers, no teaching newcomers but just say you believe and go to heaven. Again, we must BE Christian, not just declare we are Christian and through his trials, he strengthened his faith, he never got what amounts to a free pass to heaven.

Are addressing the justification before men. God knows what men believe and who has believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. God does not need to see mans works to know whether a person is a believer or not.

But men can not see into a mans heart to see if a person is a believer. So man needs to see believers action or works to see is this person a believer. If the believer has a alive active faith, then man can believe this person must be justified or must be a believer in Jesus.

So are you actually saying that? Plus it seems to be pretty convenient that the verses where there is proof that we must be Christian, keep faith, and love of the Lord is actually pretty important (at least according to Jesus). If Paul literally says "there is no need to follow, just say that you believe in him, I throw that interpretation right out the window because JESUS says (and I don't think any of these passages have been commented on besides the comment that. James wasn't actually talking about God's plan for salvation, he was addressing Earthly matters."


Pretty clear evidence that you are adjusting the proper interpretation of scripture in order to strike a blow for the Protestants. What you have quoted is not only incomplete but is also misinterpreted to support the Protestent view more than just learning the truth as it was written. How about another round of "Does Jesus ask us to be obedient?
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
So is it a done deal once you believe? It clearly says by the mouth of Jesus the living Christ "FOLLOW ME."
Does Jesus say "just believe and the path to heaven is open to you." No, he literally says FOLLOW ME not BELIEVE IN ME ONLY and you have no other obligations."
Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
"bear his own cross" "follow me" the text is there is black and white. Believe yes, but take action however how inadequate it is. That is where grace comes in and gets us right with God in spite of our mistakes because we took our cross and followed even though we only got 4 feet with our cross we followed as Jesus commanded. That reminds me of a question I had. Do we have any obligation to follow Christ or his commandments? I think we do as the scripture says. One last thing, What happened when Jesus sent out his disciples to convert the known world?
Luke 9 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal. 3 And he said to them, “Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics.[a] 4 And whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. 5 And wherever they do not receive you, when you leave that town shake off the dust from your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Do you believe that the disciples were sent out to make other disciples (followers)? Also, are WE not also the disciples of Christ who have been sent to bring others under discipleship? If so, why would God give his disciples power and authority over all demons and to cure disease if he did not intend for them to use these powers? "And they departed and went through the villages preaching and teaching the gospel and healing everywhere."

More evidence that Jesus' disciples or followers When they are ready are to preach, teach, and heal. If that is not taking action by grace, which gave the gift of faith I am reading the wrong Bible. If this does not illustrate that the Christian, the disciple, the follower has been given the mission of finding other disciples and followers, more than that, they are taught to bear their cross daily. How can one see that statement in any other way than Jesus calls us to action, I have no idea what could be remotely logical concerning what you have been taught. It's a distortion of a theology that was devised around 12-13 hundred years AFTER all of that had already been settled by the global assembly of bishops from Asia, Africa, Eastern and Western Europe, Arabia, and Russia (before it was Russia). I take the wisdom of those assemblies than one man who came up with their system of beliefs based on the writings of Paul who was NOT a desciple. Good luck with that, I ho[e and pray that I DO see you in heaven.

 

[d taylor]

Not exactly, one thing that I did talk about is that the gift of faith is free. Now that one has faith, will there be changes to one's life? It's not that your actions are ALL one gets judged by. Question: If one believes, is granted faith but they make no effort to repent or change their sinful life in any way, how valid is that faith? I think what you have been taught, takes some Bible verses out of context. For example, one of the most famous verses that justifies that there is no need to follow God.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is a profound verse because it also supports what I am trying to teach By grace we have been saved through faith. We are granted the free gift of grace which allows us to have faith. We cannot separate grace from faith. Since we are granted faith, we are capable of following him. Having said that, what else do we know about faith as it is a topic of many writers. Let's see

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
This is something that Jesus doesn't just request of us but he commands it of us. That would seem to indicate that once one professes to believe and are granted faith, our lives don't end there. So the question becomes, do you just believe you are a Christian or are you a Christian. In secular terms, if someone is a plumber, they fix pipes, if someone is a teacher, they teach others, The same way with Christianity a Christian acts like a Christian. Now the Bible doesn't say that we must do this activity on these days or that we must be perfect. The point is if one is a Christian, should they not act like one? Again

John 14:15 - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
1 Peter 1:14 - As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance
Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men
Luke 6:46 - “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
John 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

Over and over it says to obey. The way people have been taught to interpret some of the key verses on free grace, does not take into consideration the entirety of the New Testament. REMAIN IN MY LOVE IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and many others point to the fact that we are to respond to the call of the Christian path. It's not a one time decision that saves from all sin. It is living in obedience to Jesus Christ which is only made possible by the free gift. That is why I believe that decisions about how to interpret sacred scripture is by a consensus of the global community of bishops rather than the thesis of one man.


That makes sense because if you never believed, you have never been granted faith. However, this one verse doesn't suss out the whole path to a life of Christian faith (by grace through faith). We are reminded that we must believe but what does that belief do? What is it for? What does it mean? Other parts of the Bible answer that question throughout the New Testament. It is better to contrast the New Testament rather than putting all of one's belief in a distorted interpretation of part of a Bible verse.

This verse is a nice snapshot of the "proof texts." you held up in a misinterpreted and fragmented of two or three writings.

It's not about "were they obedient?" It's more about "what did you do with the free gift of grace (through faith) in your daily life. I put forward the notion that it's more important to BE a Christian than to believe one is a Christian though they have taken no steps to repent nor live their lives as Christians. I believe it would be more productive to base one's theology on the entirety of the Bible than a few pieces from a few verses that have been misinterpreted in the first place. Again I say this with the knowledge that the early Church approved the Biblical as a global consensus of bishops which represent all of the major churches in the known world. I put much more stock in their consensus that one guy who wrote a thesis based on his own understanding and not the understanding of the universal Church. As for me, I prefer to follow the commands of Christ as he is the founder of the universal with St Peter being nominated as "the Rock" of the Church with the power and insight given by Christ directly to him through the command lais down that said "You are the Rock and on this Rock, I will build my Church."

So the ultimate question is are you a Christian or a Paulian? Do you believe what Paul has to say is more important than what Christ has to say?

For example:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will obey what I command.”
John 14:21 “Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves Me… .”
1 John 2:5-6 “But if anyone obeys His word, God’s love is truly made complete in Him. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.”
"Whosoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
Do you see there "you must walk" not just "believe."

How many times and in how many places of quotations prove your interpretation of two or three verses of the Bible are distorted to gather to John Calvin's ) a lawyer, not even a seminarian) view on scripture

Do you really claim that John Calvin (or one of his contemporaries} are able to discern Christ's writings better than Christ or the disciples that learned at his feet? Are you a Calvian, a Paulian, or a Christian. The reason I ask is because Jesus said:
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Does St James have no idea what he was talking about?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Luke 11:28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!

This is barely scratching the surface of the dozens of texts that declare that we must not only believe in Christ but:
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

How many more passages from pretty much every book in the New Testament do you need to read in order to see that "grace alone." with no other caveats or explanations about how faith goes with obedience? Do you see what the Bible actually says or do you choose to follow the indoctrination of one man who wrote an essay rather than Apostle who wrote the Bew Testament of the Bible? Again, are you a Calvinist, Lutheran, Zwengliist, Arminian, or a Christian (meaning following Christ's commandments)? Who are you betting your would with, St Paul or our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Your answer will indicate if you believe what God said over what Paul said (Paul, who happened to have killed a number of Christian Jews under Pagan Roman authority.? The two half-verses that it seemed you've been indoctrinated to believe no matter what else you have read, or do you trust the entirety of the Bible for truth?

Not trying yo rag on you, I really want to see what you stand for, the couple verses Paul wrote which have been taught to be more important than anything else in the Bible, or the actual Bible where Jesus tells us directly what to do? I am dumbfounded by this logic that says Paul the Jew killer is more important to follow than Christ or his actual desciples

See you do not even understand the simplest of Biblical principals. i never stated or have talked about faith being the free gift.
I have repeated several times the free gift of God is Eternal Life and is received by/through belief in Jesus.

You posting Ephesians shows your misunderstanding of this verse, the free gift in Ephesians is salvation or in other words Eternal Life, Romans supports this truth.

Chapter 5
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Chapter 6
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus on the cross and resurrection took away the sin of the world. Sin is not an issue a person has to deal with in believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[rturner76]

See you do not even understand the simplest of Biblical principals. i never stated or have talked about faith being the free gift.
I have repeated several times the free gift of God is Eternal Life and is received by/through belief in Jesus.

You posting Ephesians shows your misunderstanding of this verse, the free gift in Ephesians is salvation or in other words Eternal Life, Romans supports this truth.

Chapter 5
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Chapter 6
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus on the cross and resurrection took away the sin of the world. Sin is not an issue a person has to deal with in believing in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

So does the passage that you quoted disprove that Jesus commands that we be obedient? Is there any need for faith at all? I think you are interpreting this scripture through the lens of your chosen denomination rather than comparing and contrasting other scriptures with it. Grace is free. This is what allows us to have faith and saving faith requires obedience. At least according to Jesus, the one whom this is all about. Do you think Paul has the fullness of God's revelation even more so than Jesus himself?. You must read these scriptures in light of these.

You have said over and over that grace is given freely and there is no other action to take. Does that mean we shouldn't bother taking up our cross like Jesus said? Jesus also said, "If you love me follow my commands." Do we just chuck out every that Christ says in order to apply a misinterpreted writing by Paul? Again, are you a Paulian or a Christian? A Christian lives as a Christian and follows Christ's commands. Must we do this perfectly? No, that is why we are offered grace (unmerited favor) to prepare us to trust God as we live our Christian lives. It seems to me that your interpretation of Paul's writing has distorted the message of Christ and his disciples. It seems like a one time purchase and not a Christian life. Do you believe that we should actually BECOME Christians or just tell God that we believe in him and do nothing that Jesus commands? I advise you to reconcile the writings of Jesus' disciples and the words of Christ when he was here on Earth.

Also, you seem to keep trying to push one part of your theology which seems to stand alone and negate any commands to obey, have faith, or be baptized. It's like saying that Paul knows more about Christianity than Jesus. Do you believe that Paul's misinterpreted words have more merit that anything Christ had to say. I have answered your interpretation with multiple statements by Jesus and his disciples and I don't see any comment about what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me, obey my commands." or "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Do we heal the sick or cast out demons in the name of Jesus or simply tell God that you believe and do absolutely nothing to even try and lead a less sinful life not caring for anyone but yourself was not Christ's mission. It is not what we are taught makes a Christian everywhere in the Bible. Again, your faith in the interpretation of Paul's writing based on your denomination's particular brand of theology seems to consider nothing else in the New Testament.

 

[d taylor]

So does the passage that you quoted disprove that Jesus commands that we be obedient? Is there any need for faith at all? I think you are interpreting this scripture through the lens of your chosen denomination rather than comparing and contrasting other scriptures with it. Grace is free. This is what allows us to have faith and saving faith requires obedience. At least according to Jesus, the one whom this is all about. Do you think Paul has the fullness of God's revelation even more so than Jesus himself?. You must read these scriptures in light of these.

You have said over and over that grace is given freely and there is no other action to take. Does that mean we shouldn't bother taking up our cross like Jesus said? Jesus also said, "If you love me follow my commands." Do we just chuck out every that Christ says in order to apply a misinterpreted writing by Paul? Again, are you a Paulian or a Christian? A Christian lives as a Christian and follows Christ's commands. Must we do this perfectly? No, that is why we are offered grace (unmerited favor) to prepare us to trust God as we live our Christian lives. It seems to me that your interpretation of Paul's writing has distorted the message of Christ and his disciples. It seems like a one time purchase and not a Christian life. Do you believe that we should actually BECOME Christians or just tell God that we believe in him and do nothing that Jesus commands? I advise you to reconcile the writings of Jesus' disciples and the words of Christ when he was here on Earth.

Also, you seem to keep trying to push one part of your theology which seems to stand alone and negate any commands to obey, have faith, or be baptized. It's like saying that Paul knows more about Christianity than Jesus. Do you believe that Paul's misinterpreted words have more merit that anything Christ had to say. I have answered your interpretation with multiple statements by Jesus and his disciples and I don't see any comment about what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me, obey my commands." or "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Do we heal the sick or cast out demons in the name of Jesus or simply tell God that you believe and do absolutely nothing to even try and lead a less sinful life not caring for anyone but yourself was not Christ's mission. It is not what we are taught makes a Christian everywhere in the Bible. Again, your faith in the interpretation of Paul's writing based on your denomination's particular brand of theology seems to consider nothing else in the New Testament.

So Jesus stating no other action is required to receive God;s free gift of Eternal Life, only belief in Him, is ignored by you.

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Are you laboring for the food that perishes all of it is. The only food that is not, is like Jesus states believe in Him whom He sent.

 

[d taylor]

So does the passage that you quoted disprove that Jesus commands that we be obedient? Is there any need for faith at all? I think you are interpreting this scripture through the lens of your chosen denomination rather than comparing and contrasting other scriptures with it. Grace is free. This is what allows us to have faith and saving faith requires obedience. At least according to Jesus, the one whom this is all about. Do you think Paul has the fullness of God's revelation even more so than Jesus himself?. You must read these scriptures in light of these.

You have said over and over that grace is given freely and there is no other action to take. Does that mean we shouldn't bother taking up our cross like Jesus said? Jesus also said, "If you love me follow my commands." Do we just chuck out every that Christ says in order to apply a misinterpreted writing by Paul? Again, are you a Paulian or a Christian? A Christian lives as a Christian and follows Christ's commands. Must we do this perfectly? No, that is why we are offered grace (unmerited favor) to prepare us to trust God as we live our Christian lives. It seems to me that your interpretation of Paul's writing has distorted the message of Christ and his disciples. It seems like a one time purchase and not a Christian life. Do you believe that we should actually BECOME Christians or just tell God that we believe in him and do nothing that Jesus commands? I advise you to reconcile the writings of Jesus' disciples and the words of Christ when he was here on Earth.

Also, you seem to keep trying to push one part of your theology which seems to stand alone and negate any commands to obey, have faith, or be baptized. It's like saying that Paul knows more about Christianity than Jesus. Do you believe that Paul's misinterpreted words have more merit that anything Christ had to say. I have answered your interpretation with multiple statements by Jesus and his disciples and I don't see any comment about what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me, obey my commands." or "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Do we heal the sick or cast out demons in the name of Jesus or simply tell God that you believe and do absolutely nothing to even try and lead a less sinful life not caring for anyone but yourself was not Christ's mission. It is not what we are taught makes a Christian everywhere in the Bible. Again, your faith in the interpretation of Paul's writing based on your denomination's particular brand of theology seems to consider nothing else in the New Testament.

-

​

So how do you (rturner76) receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[rturner76]

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

This still does not indicate that we have no need for faith or obedience. The free gift of grace is what allows us to have faith and should we have dead faith or living faith? Is this the only thing that Jesus says about following him as in (taking up our cross daily)? You have hit on important writings that tell us that the gift of faith is free. Does our Christian walk stop there? No, we must "remain in his love." Also Jesus says in John 14:23 “Jesus replied, 'If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching. ' ” Again, there is more to BEING a Christian that merely saying they are a Christian. I understand how your denomination focuses on only one aspect of Christianity (belief) when there is much more to being a living Christian. It is about a statement of belief but that is not the only thing that God has to say about salvation, being, and living as a Christian and not just paying lip service rather than live a Christian life. You are on point with some of your interpretation however, what you have quoted is not the only thing Christ has proclaimed about following him. Just to be clear, does one have no need to follow Christ and his commandments? Let's start there. The misinterpretation of Paul that your denomination teaches does not take into consideration what Christ commands us to do nor does it take into consideration what the New Testament has to say about having faith and remaining in faith? No, it is a worldview that the entirety of the New Testament. Focusing on one aspect of scripture does not eliminate all other scripture in the Bible

So how do you (rturner76) receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

By grace THROUGH FAITH and that is living faith rather than dead faith. I don't think you understand how our faith tells the story of what we actually believeI completely submit that grace is free but I also read throughout the Bible how we are not just to say we are believers but we must actually believe in the message of Christ

 

[d taylor]

This still does not indicate that we have no need for faith or obedience. The free gift of grace is what allows us to have faith and should we have dead faith or living faith? Is this the only thing that Jesus says about following him as in (taking up our cross daily)? You have hit on important writings that tell us that the gift of faith is free. Does our Christian walk stop there? No, we must "remain in his love." Also Jesus says in John 14:23 “Jesus replied, 'If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching. ' ” Again, there is more to BEING a Christian that merely saying they are a Christian. I understand how your denomination focuses on only one aspect of Christianity (belief) when there is much more to being a living Christian. It is about a statement of belief but that is not the only thing that God has to say about salvation, being, and living as a Christian and not just paying lip service rather than live a Christian life. You are on point with some of your interpretation however, what you have quoted is not the only thing Christ has proclaimed about following him. Just to be clear, does one have no need to follow Christ and his commandments? Let's start there. The misinterpretation of Paul that your denomination teaches does not take into consideration what Christ commands us to do nor does it take into consideration what the New Testament has to say about having faith and remaining in faith? No, it is a worldview that the entirety of the New Testament. Focusing on one aspect of scripture does not eliminate all other scripture in the Bible

By grace THROUGH FAITH and that is living faith rather than dead faith. I don't think you understand how our faith tells the story of what we actually believeI completely submit that grace is free but I also read throughout the Bible how we are not just to say we are believers but we must actually believe in the message of Christ

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​

Faith in what

 

[rturner76]

-
​

Faith in what

Belief in what?

 

[d taylor]

Belief in what?

-​

I ask you what your faith is in.
Because from your post between us, I believe you faith is in, what your church teaches.

 

[rturner76]

-​

I ask you what your faith is in.
Because from your post between us, I believe you faith is in, what your church teaches.

I could say the same thing. The thing that I believe your doctrine misses is what grace unlocks for the believer. You repeatedly say that by by grace we are saved but the same passage says "through faith." I believe that these are not two separate things. But as I don't desire to be "preachy," I would like to answer your question concerning what my faith is in.

My faith is in the Lord. This to me means that our journey as the Christian faithful does not end with belief. I agree that grace is granted to us as I free gift. Maybe I have not made that clear. The thing is, I also believe that once we are granted grace, we become capable of following his commands (to the best of our ability. What I want to clarify is our daily walk as Christians doesn't end with agreeing to believe. That is where our lives as living Christians begin. Now that we have accepted Christ and been granted faith, we should also live our lives as Christians. This means not just believing in Christ but following him. Like Christ commanded his disciples to "follow me."

The way I interpret many of the writings of the New Testament is we are given the free gift of grace and are commanded to
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

So while grace opens up the door of salvation to us, we should walk through that door and live to serve God to the best of our ability and our mistakes we make during that process are forgiven.

Does that make any sense at all?

EDIT: One other thing is I do acknowledge that I follow the teachings and principles that my Church teaches. Like I said earlier, with my Church there is a collection of biblical scholars who come to a consensus throughout the global community since Christ's resurection. What you seem to follow is a thesis written by one man who started their own Church because they disagreed with the teachings of the original Church. Once the Bible started to be printed in other languages, people took their own authority to interpret scripture rather than follow what most of the early reformers believed all of their lives. So yes, I do look to my Church for guidance and direction. I don't worship the Church but I believe they are endowed with the most accurate interpretation of scripture.

 

[d taylor]

I could say the same thing. The thing that I believe your doctrine misses is what grace unlocks for the believer. You repeatedly say that by by grace we are saved but the same passage says "through faith." I believe that these are not two separate things. But as I don't desire to be "preachy," I would like to answer your question concerning what my faith is in.

My faith is in the Lord. This to me means that our journey as the Christian faithful does not end with belief. I agree that grace is granted to us as I free gift. Maybe I have not made that clear. The thing is, I also believe that once we are granted grace, we become capable of following his commands (to the best of our ability. What I want to clarify is our daily walk as Christians doesn't end with agreeing to believe. That is where our lives as living Christians begin. Now that we have accepted Christ and been granted faith, we should also live our lives as Christians. This means not just believing in Christ but following him. Like Christ commanded his disciples to "follow me."

The way I interpret many of the writings of the New Testament is we are given the free gift of grace and are commanded to
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

So while grace opens up the door of salvation to us, we should walk through that door and live to serve God to the best of our ability and our mistakes we make during that process are forgiven.

Does that make any sense at all?

EDIT: One other thing is I do acknowledge that I follow the teachings and principles that my Church teaches. Like I said earlier, with my Church there is a collection of biblical scholars who come to a consensus throughout the global community since Christ's resurection. What you seem to follow is a thesis written by one man who started their own Church because they disagreed with the teachings of the original Church. Once the Bible started to be printed in other languages, people took their own authority to interpret scripture rather than follow what most of the early reformers believed all of their lives. So yes, I do look to my Church for guidance and direction. I don't worship the Church but I believe they are endowed with the most accurate interpretation of scripture.

-​

Well i ask because what you say does not line up. You say my faith is The Lord, but yet you also say you will face a judgment to see if you make it.
So these two beliefs do not go together, because facing a judgment would put the responsibility upon you and how obedient, good you were. Because Jesus states people who believe in Him will not face a judgment.

 

[rturner76]

-​

Well i ask because what you say does not line up. You say my faith is The Lord, but yet you also say you will face a judgment to see if you make it.
So these two beliefs do not go together, because facing a judgment would put the responsibility upon you and how obedient, good you were. Because Jesus states people who believe in Him will not face a judgment.

So as we read the rest of the New Testament, do we read that there will be a judgment day? Your particular interpretation of the New Testament acknowledges that grace is a free gift, and so does mine. The difference is once we are granted the free gift of grace (through faith), what should we do with it Nothing? Should we declare that we are Christian and then live and worship like we are Pagans? There is a reason that we are granted grace through faith. That reason is that we will then be given the grace through faith that allows us to live our lives AS Christians. Are we to be granted grace through faith so that we may be able to follow Christ and his commandments or are we granted grace through faith so that we may spit in the face of Christ? I don't think so. I think that we are granted grace which strengthens our faith so we may be better stewards of Christ's message to believe in and follow him.

So the question becomes, do we become Christians just to say we are Christians or do we become Christians to live our lives as Christians? I want to BE a Cristian, not just say I am a Christian. This question is so important in the life of a Christian

 

[d taylor]

So as we read the rest of the New Testament, do we read that there will be a judgment day? Your particular interpretation of the New Testament acknowledges that grace is a free gift, and so does mine. The difference is once we are granted the free gift of grace (through faith), what should we do with it Nothing? Should we declare that we are Christian and then live and worship like we are Pagans? There is a reason that we are granted grace through faith. That reason is that we will then be given the grace through faith that allows us to live our lives AS Christians. Are we to be granted grace through faith so that we may be able to follow Christ and his commandments or are we granted grace through faith so that we may spit in the face of Christ? I don't think so. I think that we are granted grace which strengthens our faith so we may be better stewards of Christ's message to believe in and follow him.

So the question becomes, do we become Christians just to say we are Christians or do we become Christians to live our lives as Christians? I want to BE a Cristian, not just say I am a Christian. This question is so important in the life of a Christian

-

​

There is a judgment day only for unbelievers (the dead), the great white throne judgment.

There is also a reward judgement only for believers, the judgement seat of The Messiah also known as the bema seat judgement .

There is the judgement at the end of the tribulation of the nations (gentile people) for believers (for rewards) and for unbelievers to be sent to the lake of fire.

The parable of the soils list the three types of believers:

2nd soil believes for a while and then falls away and bears no fruit
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
3rd soil believes a little longer than the 2nd soil but again eventually becomes unfruitful. This shows at one time they were fruitful.
Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
4th soil believes and bears much fruit.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

There is no problem with a person (born again believer) wanting to live their life like Jesus. The problem arises when people tell others that, that is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Especially when The Bible plainly states receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is only by belief in Jesus.

The message of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is so simple. When a person who identifies as a christian can not answer how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, for me a red flag pops up. Has this person actually at some point in their life, believed in Jesus or are they placing their belief/faith into some other area/object.

Like saying a prayer, repenting of sins, being baptized, walking a church isle or just being a member of a church, or their family is religious, they are being obedient to God, following the 10 commandments, or just being a good person and hoping their good out weighs their bad, etc........

 

[rturner76]

There is no problem with a person (born again believer) wanting to live their life like Jesus. The problem arises when people tell others that, that is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

No, over and over again I have agreed that God's gift is free. Where we seem to disagree is when I say that the free gift allows us to live our faith. It's not the other way around.

Especially when The Bible plainly states receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is only by belief in Jesus.

Ok, so now that we believe in Jesus, does he give us the strength to live a Christian life to the best of our ability or shall we just take that gift and do nothing with it in the way of not just believing we are Christians but we also live as Christians. Our life does not end when we believe. We must then do our best to follow Jesus' commands.

The message of receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is so simple. When a person who identifies as a christian can not answer how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, for me a red flag pops up. Has this person actually at some point in their life, believed in Jesus or are they placing their belief/faith into some other area/object.

It is simple but not as simple as you think it is. Again, I say we don't receive the free gift of grace through faith and do nothing with it. We become followers of Christ. I don't understand how one can believe yet not actually BE a Christian. We must believe but what does that mean? We make a one-time proclamation or become a new man and act on that belief. It is not as simple as believe and do nothing else. We first believe and we become believers. It's a life choice. Do I rest on the fact that grace is freely given or do I do as all the other followers of Christ and actually follow Christ?

Like saying a prayer, repenting of sins, being baptized, walking a church isle or just being a member of a church, or their family is religious, they are being obedient to God, following the 10 commandments, or just being a good person and hoping their good out weighs their bad, etc......

Again, it's not our works that grant us faith but our faith becomes evident by our actions. Remember it says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. We don't just say we are Christians but we also actually become Christians

 

[d taylor]

No, over and over again I have agreed that God's gift is free. Where we seem to disagree is when I say that the free gift allows us to live our faith. It's not the other way around.

Ok, so now that we believe in Jesus, does he give us the strength to live a Christian life to the best of our ability or shall we just take that gift and do nothing with it in the way of not just believing we are Christians but we also live as Christians. Our life does not end when we believe. We must then do our best to follow Jesus' commands.

It is simple but not as simple as you think it is. Again, I say we don't receive the free gift of grace through faith and do nothing with it. We become followers of Christ. I don't understand how one can believe yet not actually BE a Christian. We must believe but what does that mean? We make a one-time proclamation or become a new man and act on that belief. It is not as simple as believe and do nothing else. We first believe and we become believers. It's a life choice. Do I rest on the fact that grace is freely given or do I do as all the other followers of Christ and actually follow Christ?

Again, it's not our works that grant us faith but our faith becomes evident by our actions. Remember it says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. We don't just say we are Christians but we also actually become Christians

-
​

Jesus has provided The Holy Spirit for the believer. But that is not an automatic helper, the believer must have the want to and discipline to take advantage of their Holy Spirit gift.
Paul tells the Thessalonians believers.
Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.

Eternal Life is a free gift, discipleship and growth as a believer is not, it takes works. This takes a person who wants to grow, the new believer should develop discipline and seek after God's approval and not the worlds.

It simply is not a given that ever person who believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Will go on to live a holy Christ like life.

I never stated believe and do nothing else, but that is the reality for some or even many who believe in Jesus.

The label Christian, can be very misleading. many who may identify as a Christian, they have never believed in Jesus. They may be one of the most faithful church goers, sing in the choir, even teach Sunday school, even be a pastor etc...

Matthew addresses this
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Jesus has provided The Holy Spirit for the believer. But that is not an automatic helper, the believer must have the want to and discipline to take advantage of their Holy Spirit gift.
Paul tells the Thessalonians believers.
Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.

Eternal Life is a free gift, discipleship and growth as a believer is not, it takes works. This takes a person who wants to grow, the new believer should develop discipline and seek after God's approval and not the worlds.

It simply is not a given that ever person who believes in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Will go on to live a holy Christ like life.

I never stated believe and do nothing else, but that is the reality for some or even many who believe in Jesus.

The label Christian, can be very misleading. many who may identify as a Christian, they have never believed in Jesus. They may be one of the most faithful church goers, sing in the choir, even teach Sunday school, even be a pastor etc...

Matthew addresses this
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Right before that passage you quoted in Matthew 7 Jesus said that you can identify them by their actions.

”“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[d taylor]

Right before that passage you quoted in Matthew 7 Jesus said that you can identify them by their actions.

”“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭15‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

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​

Both of these passages of verses are addressing false teachings based on good works.. Or to the audience Jesus would have been addressing Jews. Since the audience is Jewish, they would have been thinking about the law and keeping the law in trying to get into the kingdom of heaven.


“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’