Please Explain

Toztabud

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"Please Explain"
Why, would you honestly listen?

Because they wish to know another oppinion. Why did people listen when they were told the world wasn't flat?

It does matter if you want to know where you'll be 200 years from now.
 
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Awesome_Frog

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If evolution is correct, can somebody please explain what is wrong with the information in this article?

"Is There Really a God?" from "The New Answers Book 1" on "Answers in Genesis".
Hello Toztabud. I'm hoping this is the article you are talking about.

Is There Really a God? - Answers in Genesis

I'd like to point out that understanding and accepting the modern theory of evolution dosen't automatically rule out a Theistic, Deistic, or Pantheistic god(s).


As for the article, its faults are that if the reader has a solid understanding of Evolutionary Biology or Bio-Chemistry, then the reader will see some decietful tactics right away. Somone who isn't so well versed might get caught up in some of these arguments, and I can attest that at one time I took some of these arguments to heart. For the most part though, the arguments used in this article are very weak and use very vague terms to both over simplify the subject and distract from the source's lack of information.

The article starts off by talking about Paley's argument about design and addressing how Anthropologists and archeologists look for stone tools. The article make a logical jump by claiming like the tools, universe is designed. The problem here is that the article hasn't given a definition on what it means by designed yet. There is no definition given as to what a designed, verses a non designed universe or organism would look like or react to reality. The archeologists can tell that something was designed by comparing it to how items are found naturally. This is the comparison, where with the argument that everything was designed by God, dosen't have a comparison for us to use to verify the assertion.

The next part of the of the article starts to talk about the evolution of organisms. Two important words are brought into the equation now. The words "information" and the word "kind". What do these words mean? The article never defines exactly what these words mean. For instance the article goes into "dog/wolf Kind". Then claims that there is no new "information" coming in, so all generations of dogs are still dogs.

Well, the problem with this argument is that biology doesn't recognize the word "Kind". This is because the word dosen't have a solid definition. Meaning its useless or outdated for classification of species. Mainly because biology uses the phylogenetic system lists organisms by

Life, Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species, and then sometimes Subspecies.
The Dog/wolf kind example dosen't fit how biology actually looks at variation and species.

Dogs, wolves, Coyotes, and dingos all are classified in order of Carnivores because they share the Anatomical and Genetic information all carnivores have. They also all fall under the family of caniforms because they like wise share the anatomical and genetic information needed to classify as caniforms alongside bears, weasels, and African wild dogs. However Dingos and Coyotes don't share the same genus as wolves and Dogs because they don't share the genetic information. Dogs are a species of Wolves. Lupus being the Genus and Lupus Lupus being teh species Wolf and Lupus familiar being the species of Dog. Collies and Poodles are sub species of the overall Species of dog.

The word Kind just dosen't cut it.

Now the rest of the article goes on about how there is no new information, but the article only talks about what isn't information but never says what is information. We can toss this argument out because since there is no definition for information, there is no reasons to even acknowledge it.


So basically the article throws buzzwords at the reader instead of defending its case. When it is trying to defend its position, it relies on the Straw man argument, false Dilemma, and quote mining.

So, in short the article never actually addresses what Evolutionary biologists actually consider evolution to be, and spends its time arguing about terms and evidence that biology in general dosen't use to state its case to begin with.

I hope this helped. :D
 
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Naraoia

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The next part of the of the article starts to talk about the evolution of organisms. Two important words are brought into the equation now. The words "information" and the word "kind". What do these words mean? The article never defines exactly what these words mean. For instance the article goes into "dog/wolf Kind". Then claims that there is no new "information" coming in, so all generations of dogs are still dogs.

Well, the problem with this argument is that biology doesn't recognize the word "Kind". This is because the word dosen't have a solid definition. Meaning its useless or outdated for classification of species. Mainly because biology uses the phylogenetic system lists organisms by

Life, Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species, and then sometimes Subspecies.
The Dog/wolf kind example dosen't fit how biology actually looks at variation and species.
I hope you forgive if I get all technical at you ;)

Phylogenetic systematics (a.k.a. cladistics) doesn't recognise any taxonomic rank above, IIRC, genus. I'm pretty sure genera are only kept because the scientific names of species include a generic name, and things have to have names.

None of the ranks you list are particularly well-defined. Species comes closest to actually referring to a... I don't want to say "natural", since the others can also be natural groups, but an objectively definable entity. Everything above species is more or less defined as "a group of related [insert rank below]". Phylum is a possible exception, since among animals it is sometimes defined by a "body plan", but let's not get into exactly what a "body plan" is :)

The problem with kinds is twofold. First, as you say, they are undefined. They are not undefined in the same way Linnaean ranks are, but rather, their meaning is, shall we say, far too flexible. It tends to become whatever suits the creationist at the time. Second, and this is by far the bigger problem in my eyes: they are supposed to represent some sort of box that constrains evolution within its limits. I don't know if any creationist has ever provided either theoretical reasons or evidence as to the existence of such a box. (This is why the refusal to pin down kinds to a level of actual biological classification is problematic. It's impossible to argue about limits if your opponent refuses to tell you where they are supposed to be.)

Dogs, wolves, Coyotes, and dingos all are classified in order of Carnivores because they share the Anatomical and Genetic information all carnivores have. They also all fall under the family of caniforms because they like wise share the anatomical and genetic information needed to classify as caniforms alongside bears, weasels, and African wild dogs.
Tiny technicality: Caniformia is a suborder of Carnivora. The family is Canidae, and it doesn't include bears and weasels.

However Dingos and Coyotes don't share the same genus as wolves and Dogs because they don't share the genetic information. Dogs are a species of Wolves. Lupus being the Genus and Lupus Lupus being teh species Wolf and Lupus familiar being the species of Dog. Collies and Poodles are sub species of the overall Species of dog.
Dogs (Canis familiaris or C. lupus familiaris), wolves (C. lupus), dingos (C. l. dingo) and coyotes (C. latrans) are all in the same genus. Many even classify the last three in the same species. Which makes sense, since AFAIK they can interbreed no problem. (For that matter, so can coyotes and wolves/dogs.)
 
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Awesome_Frog

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I hope you forgive if I get all technical at you ;)

Phylogenetic systematics (a.k.a. cladistics) doesn't recognise any taxonomic rank above, IIRC, genus. I'm pretty sure genera are only kept because the scientific names of species include a generic name, and things have to have names.

None of the ranks you list are particularly well-defined. Species comes closest to actually referring to a... I don't want to say "natural", since the others can also be natural groups, but an objectively definable entity. Everything above species is more or less defined as "a group of related [insert rank below]". Phylum is a possible exception, since among animals it is sometimes defined by a "body plan", but let's not get into exactly what a "body plan" is :)

The problem with kinds is twofold. First, as you say, they are undefined. They are not undefined in the same way Linnaean ranks are, but rather, their meaning is, shall we say, far too flexible. It tends to become whatever suits the creationist at the time. Second, and this is by far the bigger problem in my eyes: they are supposed to represent some sort of box that constrains evolution within its limits. I don't know if any creationist has ever provided either theoretical reasons or evidence as to the existence of such a box. (This is why the refusal to pin down kinds to a level of actual biological classification is problematic. It's impossible to argue about limits if your opponent refuses to tell you where they are supposed to be.)

Tiny technicality: Caniformia is a suborder of Carnivora. The family is Canidae, and it doesn't include bears and weasels.

Dogs (Canis familiaris or C. lupus familiaris), wolves (C. lupus), dingos (C. l. dingo) and coyotes (C. latrans) are all in the same genus. Many even classify the last three in the same species. Which makes sense, since AFAIK they can interbreed no problem. (For that matter, so can coyotes and wolves/dogs.)
Thanks for the corrections. I'm still new to Phylogeny.
 
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Toztabud

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I am sorry you feel that way, but truth is not defined by a popularity vote. Truth - real truth - is found in God alone.

The bottom line is, if God exists (which I believe He does) and made us (which I believe He did) then shouldn't He have authority over our lives? Or would you rather follow your fellow man like a lemur - straight over a cliff to your death? Despite what science claims, if it is wrong, then you will have the Almighty to stand before at your time of judgement (which I expect you already know, since you ARE posting on a Christian forum after all).

Do not think you have fooled me. You know that if scripture is incorrect you will not have to submit to it and can remain in darkness without worry.

Woe unto you, vile decievers. No matter how tight you shut up your hearts, the word of God will not be altered. You have condemned yourselves to an eternal separation from the Truth. Why do you beat your chests about it? As a tree without water withers and dies, so to do you who lack the power of the Spirit. Why do you seek your own praise?

Have you not heard? The world was once full of men like you: hardened hearts and closed minds, but the Lord Almighty opened up the great fountains of the deep to swallow them whole. But God preserved just eight people for loyalty to Him. Do NOT think there is strength in numbers!

And again, when the peoples of the earth united to build a city and make a name for themselves, the Lord countered their pride by mixing up their languages. That is why their city is called Babel to this day: for it means 'confusion'. If they could not escape the hand of God, how will you?

Woe to you with unclean hearts and distorted minds. The hour of the Lord is near. The ways of your forefathers only lead to Death and Destruction. Just as they were cut off, so to will you be if you do not repent. The bait is sweat, but the net is wide. Do not touch it, lest you be ensnared. But turn away and run! Flee from the wicked hunter and come into the shelter house of the Lord. It is there that you will find the sweatest nectar and you will eat and be satisfied.
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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I am sorry you feel that way, but truth is not defined by a popularity vote. Truth - real truth - is found in God alone.

The bottom line is, if God exists (which I believe He does) and made us (which I believe He did) then shouldn't He have authority over our lives? Or would you rather follow your fellow man like a lemur - straight over a cliff to your death? Despite what science claims, if it is wrong, then you will have the Almighty to stand before at your time of judgement (which I expect you already know, since you ARE posting on a Christian forum after all).

Do not think you have fooled me. You know that if scripture is incorrect you will not have to submit to it and can remain in darkness without worry.

Woe unto you, vile decievers. No matter how tight you shut up your hearts, the word of God will not be altered. You have condemned yourselves to an eternal separation from the Truth. Why do you beat your chests about it? As a tree without water withers and dies, so to do you who lack the power of the Spirit. Why do you seek your own praise?

Have you not heard? The world was once full of men like you: hardened hearts and closed minds, but the Lord Almighty opened up the great fountains of the deep to swallow them whole. But God preserved just eight people for loyalty to Him. Do NOT think there is strength in numbers!

And again, when the peoples of the earth united to build a city and make a name for themselves, the Lord countered their pride by mixing up their languages. That is why their city is called Babel to this day: for it means 'confusion'. If they could not escape the hand of God, how will you?

Woe to you with unclean hearts and distorted minds. The hour of the Lord is near. The ways of your forefathers only lead to Death and Destruction. Just as they were cut off, so to will you be if you do not repent. The bait is sweat, but the net is wide. Do not touch it, lest you be ensnared. But turn away and run! Flee from the wicked hunter and come into the shelter house of the Lord. It is there that you will find the sweatest nectar and you will eat and be satisfied.

So your final defense after failing to present a reasonable arguement, is death threats prefaced with "oh its not me, but the good lord will slaughter you and it will be your fault" ? Good show old chap.

I'll atleast give you credit for saying that this is merely what you believe, rather then that its actually true. There may be hope for you yet :thumbsup:
 
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plindboe

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Evil people are those who reject the clear teachings of scripture over man's interpretation.

In other words "Those who don't agree with me are evil". I find this attitude rather disturbing.

In any case, you're the one believing in men's interpretations of archaic texts written by men.


All who do this are making themselves gods. And scripture is quite clear about this: "Thou shall have no gods before Me".

You must have a weird definition of "god" then. A common definition is a supernatural being with superhuman powers, usually applied to explain various phenonema observed in nature. None of this applies to nonbelievers.


And how dare you, as a man, decide what is strong and what is weak! It is GOD who created you, NOT the cosmos. You evil, warped souls are storing up nothing but damnation for yourselves. Love does NOT lie, but it seeks to correct and save.

"Love" is not exactly what's emanating from your posts. I see an angry individual who seemingly have nothing but threats and superstition to offer.

Peter :)
 
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RickG

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I am sorry you feel that way, but truth is not defined by a popularity vote. Truth - real truth - is found in God alone.

The bottom line is, if God exists (which I believe He does) and made us (which I believe He did) then shouldn't He have authority over our lives? Or would you rather follow your fellow man like a lemur - straight over a cliff to your death? Despite what science claims, if it is wrong, then you will have the Almighty to stand before at your time of judgement (which I expect you already know, since you ARE posting on a Christian forum after all).

Do not think you have fooled me. You know that if scripture is incorrect you will not have to submit to it and can remain in darkness without worry.

Woe unto you, vile decievers. No matter how tight you shut up your hearts, the word of God will not be altered. You have condemned yourselves to an eternal separation from the Truth. Why do you beat your chests about it? As a tree without water withers and dies, so to do you who lack the power of the Spirit. Why do you seek your own praise?

Have you not heard? The world was once full of men like you: hardened hearts and closed minds, but the Lord Almighty opened up the great fountains of the deep to swallow them whole. But God preserved just eight people for loyalty to Him. Do NOT think there is strength in numbers!

And again, when the peoples of the earth united to build a city and make a name for themselves, the Lord countered their pride by mixing up their languages. That is why their city is called Babel to this day: for it means 'confusion'. If they could not escape the hand of God, how will you?

Woe to you with unclean hearts and distorted minds. The hour of the Lord is near. The ways of your forefathers only lead to Death and Destruction. Just as they were cut off, so to will you be if you do not repent. The bait is sweat, but the net is wide. Do not touch it, lest you be ensnared. But turn away and run! Flee from the wicked hunter and come into the shelter house of the Lord. It is there that you will find the sweatest nectar and you will eat and be satisfied.

Might I suggest reviewing the forum rules:

Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose; submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion. Off Topic posts will be moved or removed.

Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) will be considered off-topic to all site forums. These may be posted in your own personal Blog.
 
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Gath

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The two main problems with that article (IMO) are the claims of irreducible complexity and the claim that no new genetic information can be added through a mutation.

Both issues have been proven to be incorrect.

Irreducible complexity, while a tantalizing idea, is completely and utterly wrong. In fact, it is nothing more than an argument from personal incredulity. People say 'evolution can't work because X could not work if some parts were missing!' In fact, all biological structures can, and have worked in a more primitive version, and the anti-evolutionists inability to conceive of how such a structure evolved is not proof that said structure did not evolve.

Second of all, the article sites the myth that no new genetic information can be added through mutation. This argument is worse than the irreducible complexity one because the IC argument requires a bit of thinking to refute, whereas this argument does not. It is a known fact that mutations do add genetic information. End of story.
 
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