Overly Simplistic

[Mixolydian]

I have a degree in Psychology and I found that a good portion of it is sham science. At it's basic level, a psychologist is paid friend to turn to in a fractured alienated society. This is particularly true for a psychologist's bread and butter, situational depression. Where they use cognitive therapy to change a person's thought patterns, the bible calls it daily renewing your mind. It's not glib easyism to tell someone who is situationally depressed to pray, seek God, meditate on God's goodness and find the company and counsel of fellow believers who can uphold and comfort you.


On the other hand, depression or other mental illnesses that have a neurological cause need medical intervention, not to say however that those illnesses are beyond God's healing hand.

 

[alancrookham]

Well, the Bible was written for children, and to be honest the most obvious answer really is usually the right one. In the Bible Jesus dealt with mental illness by casting it out, which I think is the best way to go. I used to try and delve into the deep crevices of theology, but I ended up finding out that it just takes you in circles and you never find any real answers. The truth is in the simplicity.

 

[synger]

As my mother used to say, "simple" does not necessarily mean "easy." Losing weight is simple... eat less, eat healthily, and move more. But it's not easy.

Our lives as Christians are simple... Love God and serve our neighbors. Trust in Christ for forgiveness of sins. But it's not necessarily easy. Day by day we face struggles and sins.

What makes our struggles different is that we have hope. Christ died to reconcile us to God... to cover our sins with His righteousness. My pastor says that in our daily walk with God the Holy Spirit works in us to develop us into the righteous child of God that He has already declared us to be.

What does that have to do with depression and mental illness (or any other struggle)? The simple answer "pray and trust in God" works... but it's not YOUR work. It's God's work in you. And He gives us other tools as well -- professional counselors, pastors, medicines, pain management tools, family/friends/support networks, etc. THey are all part of how we live day to day with our burdens. THey are all part of how God works to heal us through the people and skills He has given us.

 

[heron]

I have a degree in Psychology and I found that a good portion of it is sham science.

Put on worship music...

This thread reminded me of pregnancy days, where I told my doctor that I couldn't keep any food down all day, and she said "eat lots of salads." Music was another one of her prescriptions. People say that the doctors are the only ones that can give real advice (or churches), but every field seems to have its weaknesses.

Answers are complex. No situation is the same.

 

[mustang_94]

One thing I have been struggling with alot lately is that alot of theology seems to be overly simplistic and doesnt often address the much more complex issues.

One that immediately springs to mind is the subject of mental illness. I recall being told when I was in the midst of a major depressive episode that i should simply put on worship music, and pray. Since working in mental health and dealing with clients with some very complex issues, eg alcohol and drug dependence, sexual and physical abuse, loss of custody of children as well as major mental illness I've realised that effectively dealing with something like mental illness and emotional issues is much more complex and requires more than a glib answer some real intensive work and support.

How about you? Have you encountered overly simplistic theology that really doesnt go anywhere near explaining the difficult situations? How does deal with that.

Thoughts opinions, welcome.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as "overly simplistic theology". But, there are a lot of complicated people around. Education can be a wonderful thing, but a lot depends on who has it. I have met many very educated people who always seem to filter everything through what they have been taught. Jesus is to be experienced, not figured out.

 

[heron]

One thing I have been struggling with alot lately is that alot of theology seems to be overly simplistic and doesnt often address the much more complex issues.

One that immediately springs to mind is the subject of mental illness. I recall being told when I was in the midst of a major depressive episode that i should simply put on worship music, and pray. Since working in mental health and dealing with clients with some very complex issues, eg alcohol and drug dependence, sexual and physical abuse, loss of custody of children as well as major mental illness I've realised that effectively dealing with something like mental illness and emotional issues is much more complex and requires more than a glib answer some real intensive work and support.

Many members approach their pastors for individual counseling, and a pastor does what they can... but pastors can't possibly have the time needed to treat all of the cases they encounter. Some will condense their answers in a sermon, to try to prevent others taking similar paths.

I went to one church that quietly swept all issues out the door, and decided their blanket stance was praise-->restoration. Leaving everything to the power of God, with no human responsibility. That is obviously not scriptural, but it seemed that way to them at the time. They have probably softened that since.

Every fellowship assesses and reassesses, makes new doctrines from past experiences, and learns new facets of God as they go. Most churches look different from one decade to the next.

 

[Simon_Templar]

One thing I have been struggling with alot lately is that alot of theology seems to be overly simplistic and doesnt often address the much more complex issues.

One that immediately springs to mind is the subject of mental illness. I recall being told when I was in the midst of a major depressive episode that i should simply put on worship music, and pray. Since working in mental health and dealing with clients with some very complex issues, eg alcohol and drug dependence, sexual and physical abuse, loss of custody of children as well as major mental illness I've realised that effectively dealing with something like mental illness and emotional issues is much more complex and requires more than a glib answer some real intensive work and support.

How about you? Have you encountered overly simplistic theology that really doesnt go anywhere near explaining the difficult situations? How does deal with that.

Thoughts opinions, welcome.

Honestly, and no offense , your reading the wrong theology.

a lot of people think truth is simple, but its not.

Truth (and thus theology) is, to use a common phrase, a river that a child can wade in, but elephants can drown in.

The point being, on the surface it is simple enough for anyone to understand it, and even the simplest can wade in as far as they need to, but the fullness of it is so deep, so rich, and so complex that you will never hit bottom.

 

[hopeinGod]

The Church really doesn't have an answer for those who suffer with mental illnesses; it has no quick cures, no instantaneous miracles, no fast fixes. A well-balanced minister will lead a believer to a relationship with the Savior, but he will refuse to add methodologies and formulas, the sort that have emerged out of the Word of Faith groups.

Maybe during the days of Jesus, while He lived on this earth, that unclean, possessed madman whose demons He sent into those pigs was an example of a mentally ill man being cured; but, the truth today is that Christian-based methodologies and formulas only serve to place a person with an obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) into obsessive traps.

Voices come to say, "You're not healed because you haven't read ten chapters in your Bible, sang four songs every day, and interceded for all those you love." Through this, anxiety builds, as OCD latches hold of those type of thoughts, the kind that keep one centered on the attainment of promises through methodologies, as well as one's lack of perfection.

My advice is to let your relationship be based not on performance measurements but God's love for you and your love for Him. Give up strict adherence to phariseeical standards and rest in His love. Sure, you can read your Bible and pray, but do it out of a love relationship, not formulas; otherwise, obsessions will grow to be your central focus.

Announcing that one has a sound mind, or that he/she is putting on the mind of Christ, is a far cry from a cure.

Dave

 

[Alive_Again]

The Church really doesn't have an answer for those who suffer with mental illnesses; it has no quick cures, no instantaneous miracles, no fast fixes.

The answer is Jesus. Your freedom comes with submission, faith, and the anointing power of God. The anointing breaks the yoke of oppression. Mental illness more often than not is the result of demonic oppression. Sometimes chemical imbalances due to disease or even medications contribute, but even then, the enemy seems to always have a hand in it.

Jesus won the victory over all the power of the enemy. It's important to go to a church where the anointing is present. Sometimes through intercession, a believer will be the recipient of a miraculous restoration, but it was the anointing by way of prayer/grace and mercy of God to bring this about.

If you fellowship in a church where the anointing supposedly passed away (another word for death!), then you likely won't see a change. Jesus performed miracles where the anointed Word was preached (He preached it.). First the Word, then the power present to heal and those with the hearing of faith step out and receive. It was easier in Jesus' day because they saw Him. Today you see with the eye of faith if you've got an ear to hear and faith (the result of God's voice speaking to your heart His promise).

The church is learning to move with the enabling given to it during the feast of Pentecost. God HAS anointed the five-fold ministry to train the saints for the work of ministry. This is done through the anointing, so go somewhere where the anointing is and sit under the Word! Diligently seek Him and believe that He is a rewarder of those who do.

A well-balanced minister will lead a believer to a relationship with the Savior, but he will refuse to add methodologies and formulas, the sort that have emerged out of the Word of Faith groups.

It's not about "Word of Faith". It's about the Word of God. We have the instruction manual for receive and fulfilling righteousness. Jesus and what He has said, is a treasure hidden in a field. When you become a Christian, you become a joint heir of someone who owns everything. If money (however important) is on the lower side of what is important, how much more so our peace and a sound mind? We must learn how to appropriate the promises of God by faith, coupled with the anointing.

..but, the truth today is that Christian-based methodologies and formulas only serve to place a person with an obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) into obsessive traps.

Politely, that is NOT the truth today. The truth today is the same as it was before. We must learn to receive. We must learn to submit and incline our ears. We must seek the anointing and receive hope (first before faith). It's not about formulas, it's about what He has said and what you do with that. If you call being a do'er of the Word a methodology, then we'd be wise to do it. It's all about our renewal and loving God by obeying Him.

Since a lot of mumbo jumbo goes around about what the Word says, you've got to be ready to walk in it and then if what you hear does not minister life, turn from it and keep seeking. Ask God to lead you to the right church. Believe that He will. Start there!

Voices come to say, "You're not healed because you haven't read ten chapters in your Bible, sang four songs every day, and interceded for all those you love." Through this, anxiety builds, as OCD latches hold of those type of thoughts, the kind that keep one centered on the attainment of promises through methodologies, as well as one's lack of perfection.

I'm sorry if that's what you've heard. It's about grace. It's about your provision being won by Jesus for you already. There ARE things that we must do to fulfill righteousness. Without that, you will not know victory. If you cannot receive from the rest of faith first, then go back and let God minister righteousness and grace to you (under the anointing). It's still scriptural to read, and praise the Lord (binds the enemy), pray always (It's the Word folks.) If it's "YOU" performing instead of you yielding and flowing, then you have the works of the flesh.

Announcing that one has a sound mind, or that he/she is putting on the mind of Christ, if a far cry from a cure.

You're referring to calling things which are not as though they were? It's important to get into your Spirit the promise that Jesus ALREADY won this for you. We are to agree with the Word. Everything that rises above this for a believer is a lie. It's an enemy so run to the anointing and find a church where they have experience moving in it to set the captives free. It's really available. Be open to going to other places to fellowship and DO NOT negatively criticize others ministries. It gives the enemy a legal right to oppress you.

I've seen people on this list fight for the right to do that and if you choose to be one of them, you'll stay oppressed. Those who do this give heed!

 

[hopeinGod]

Sometimes through intercession, a believer will be the recipient of a miraculous restoration, but it was the anointing by way of prayer/grace and mercy of God to bring this about.

You provided my answer. More correct is the word seldomly.

 

[Alive_Again]

Originally Posted by Alive_Again

Sometimes through intercession, a believer will be the recipient of a miraculous restoration, but it was the anointing by way of prayer/grace and mercy of God to bring this about.
​

You provided my answer. More correct is the word seldomly.

When I say through intercession, I really mean without any one knowing. The work is done through the Spirit by means of prayer. It is the same kind of prayer, only through intercession it is someone else's faith that is being worked.

The whole point of meditating on the Word, speaking and agreeing with the Word, and living a life of praise and worship is to provide the environment where the kingdom can move without hinderance. It makes for your renewal so you can use YOUR faith (taking it out of the "seldom" area). You can believe for it, but when you combine your faith with the anointing then things really move.

The area of personal ministry is weak in the church because people are inexperienced in the gifts, the church doesn't allow the gifts to be nurtured, lack of knowledge, etc. When in prayer and the word of knowledge, or discernment of spirits (seeing or knowing in the spirit realm) then you can discern the root cause of problems and deal with them effectively. No offense to those to whom it applies, but if you just fellowship in an evangelical (traditional Protestant) church, then you won't know the full move of the Spirit because they don't preach it. If it's not preached, the Holy Spirit has nothing to agree with. As you say, you see people getting saved, but SELDOM does it go beyond that.

It should be the NORM for healings, deliverance, and miracles to manifest. God's waiting for the church to repent and believe the good news (assuming it's preached). He's waiting for us to get serious with Him because He's already given us His promises and we already KNOW they cover everything we need. It's time for us to learn how to "drive" and flow with the wind of the Spirit and His business is the Father's. We have already seen the example of Jesus who did the same business!

 

[hopeinGod]

Every fellowship assesses and reassesses, makes new doctrines from past experiences, and learns new facets of God as they go. Most churches look different from one decade to the next.

Amen to that. In fact, it is more like make-it-up-as-you-go theology, which has caused the bailing out of many Spirit filled believers.

 

[hopeinGod]

Originally Posted by Alive_Again

Sometimes through intercession, a believer will be the recipient of a miraculous restoration, but it was the anointing by way of prayer/grace and mercy of God to bring this about.

​

When I say through intercession, I really mean without any one knowing. The work is done through the Spirit by means of prayer. It is the same kind of prayer, only through intercession it is someone else's faith that is being worked.

The whole point of meditating on the Word, speaking and agreeing with the Word, and living a life of praise and worship is to provide the environment where the kingdom can move without hinderance. It makes for your renewal so you can use YOUR faith (taking it out of the "seldom" area). You can believe for it, but when you combine your faith with the anointing then things really move.

The area of personal ministry is weak in the church because people are inexperienced in the gifts, the church doesn't allow the gifts to be nurtured, lack of knowledge, etc. When in prayer and the word of knowledge, or discernment of spirits (seeing or knowing in the spirit realm) then you can discern the root cause of problems and deal with them effectively. No offense to those to whom it applies, but if you just fellowship in an evangelical (traditional Protestant) church, then you won't know the full move of the Spirit because they don't preach it. If it's not preached, the Holy Spirit has nothing to agree with. As you say, you see people getting saved, but SELDOM does it go beyond that.

It should be the NORM for healings, deliverance, and miracles to manifest. God's waiting for the church to repent and believe the good news (assuming it's preached). He's waiting for us to get serious with Him because He's already given us His promises and we already KNOW they cover everything we need. It's time for us to learn how to "drive" and flow with the wind of the Spirit and His business is the Father's. We have already seen the example of Jesus who did the same business!

I have worked for the past quarter century at the nation's leading VA hospital for spinal cord and polytrauma victims of war. Many, many soldiers come home with half a skull and loss of brains, one or two limbs missing, and mental abilities destroyed or diminished.

David may have written that he never saw the righteous forsaken, but I'm fairly certain he never saw a human limb grow out of a shoulder, neither will you, and neither will I.

The Church must begin to admit to the limitations of prevailing theologies. It's time to be honest with ourselves and quit promising what will never manifest in this lifetime.

 

[Alive_Again]

David may have written that he never saw the righteous forsaken, but I'm fairly certain he never saw a human limb grow out of a shoulder, neither will you, and neither will I.

When God first started dealing with me at age 13, I saw TRUE Christianity as doing these very things. I heard Jesus say we'd do the greater works than He did. Admittedly, that is not the norm, but I for one believe in His Word. He's training us to do these very things. Those miracles are still possible, but each person must avail themselves to the promise of God in their heart (where faith comes).

There IS a place in Heaven where the body parts are and they are for the taking. Since the kingdom starts within very small and grows into an enormous planting of righteousness, I'm not stopping before the full kernel is in the ear and saying these things will not come to pass. I've heard in the spirit from the spies who have seen what God is going to work and I'm staying on the side of one who will do the greater works.

I'm sure working in the environment that you do, it is difficult to see these works of the devil seemingly rise up above the strength of the church in the failure to manifest miracles and healings in the way that our heart aspires to for others.

The Church must begin to admit to the limitations of prevailing theologies. It's time to be honest with ourselves and quit promising what will never manifest in this lifetime.

I was just reading today how the church had moved into a form of idolatry by relying on coping methods that excluded the restoration power of the anointing. It's still possible to plug in to the same miracle power of God and at it's foundation, it is hearing the voice of the Lord. It is rising up in the light of being a new creature.

All the saints are greater than even John the Baptist and we need to learn how to flow with the purpose of God by getting rid of mindsets that say that the giants are too big to take. It's our inheritance. As you read the Word, deep inside you know this to be true. I want to encourage you to dare to think otherwise and ask God to give you a fresh vision of being seated in the Heavenly places. Sound good? I could use one too.

I want to add this as well. God is getting ready to initiate the biggest revival the world has ever seen (not just in Africa or Asia). It's coming to a neighborhood near you. Even children are going to do mighty works. The church's finest hour is yet to come. Here's the admonition: You won't enter in to that with the position that we have to face the facts that it (these miraculous works) won't happen. God opposes that form of unbelief. If you need for God to begin to give you vision on this, repent and leave that to Him and just seek Him. You don't want to be left out because of agreeing with an evil report. (Not that I'm looking for it, but) You'll thank me later in Heaven for taking an about face on this very subject.

 

[hopeinGod]

Yea, and Jesus is coming back tomorrow.

 

[Alive_Again]

Yea, and Jesus is coming back tomorrow.

Actually this is why He isn't coming back tomorrow.

 

[hopeinGod]

I don't know how long you've been in the Lord, but I wonder just how many movements of God you've witnessed or been a part of. They sprout every few years (or so) to draw in the least able to discern, all in an effort to keep the offerings and applause coming, with absolutely no confirmation from God.

Personally, the people of God should know enough about these distractions to be sufficiently vaccinated against them, but sadly, they're not. In fact, they support them, thus allowing ambitious charismatic kingdoms to flourish as multi-million dollar counterfeits, rather than allowing them to collapse. Maybe when the latter is the norm, God can again begin to impart a vision that is truly His.

We're clearly told throughout Scripture how God often has to destroy before he can build, that the way up is down. Instead, charismatics are being fed something akin to entitlement. After all, they are king's kids, right?

So little they know of the role of suffering. To live, we must be willing to die, to be shaped, and not into pawns for the next glorious movement, for God is not into movements, which today include all sorts of fabricated proclaimations.

You can wait for whatever the name of the next movement is that you are predicting. Don't hold a seat for me.

 

[Alive_Again]

I don't know how long you've been in the Lord, but I wonder just how many movements of God you've witnessed or been a part of. They sprout every few years (or so) to draw in the least able to discern, all in an effort to keep the offerings and applause coming, with absolutely no confirmation from God.

While I was not a part of the healing revival, within the church (at large) there is and has been a camp of followers who are sold out to Him. Those are the ones that have the fire. I don't pay attention to the left or the right. I don't just receive anything everyone says. The things I witness to I receive and hold fast to that which is good. Put the rest on the shelf.

...thus allowing ambitious charismatic kingdoms to flourish as multi-million dollar counterfeits, rather than allowing them to collapse.

A tree is known by its fruit. It is not my business to judge His servants. I know He has a way of getting through, so I leave it at that. Judgment begins here so we have to be careful to consider ourselves in all matters of judgment lest we be tempted to take upon ourselves a role only God should have.

Instead, charismatics are being fed something akin to entitlement. After all, they are king's kids, right?

The inheritance I seek is in the Spirit.

So little they know of the role of suffering. To live, we must be willing to die, to be shaped, and not into pawns for the next glorious movement, for God is not into movements, which today include all sorts of fabricated proclamations.

That was all I knew for so long. The important step next is to move on to the resurrection and being a partaker of the divine nature by mixing faith in the precious promises. There is a lot more about being a "new creature" than is typically proclaimed. There is a "ripening" of the inner man that takes place as God's promises become established in our hearts. He is patiently waiting for others to wait on Him, expectantly. That is the hardest thing to do for our busy selves. Still, along the way, God will use someone in a certain way and give them a message encouraging us to desire, believe, press in, and lay hold.

You can wait for whatever the name of the next movement is that you are predicting. Don't hold a seat for me.

Emphatically, the most dangerous thing in our walk that we can do is to make statements like that. They are judgments that will not justify us when we are judged (in this world and in the next). I'm not talking about going to Heaven, I'm talking about experiencing the Kingdom of God in the here and now to the extent indicated in the scriptures. Speaking ill-advisedly was part of what kept Moses from entering in. It kept 8 spies from entering in.

Their have always been revivals here and there from time to time. I'm referring to the great harvest and the latter rain in this last end time move of God. If you took a poll here to see how many wanted to be involved in that, wouldn't it be unanimous?

 

[hopeinGod]

What I hear from your writing is that you may not understand the difference between condemnation and discernment. These two judgments are thoroughly described in Scripture, and yet most of the Church knows only that they shouldn't "judge," never mind the distinctions.

"A spiritual man judges all things" we are told, and the only way that skill can be achieved is by exercising one's spiritual senses to discern good and evil. Sadly, the Church, and especially the charismatic groups, have very little ability to discern. They take in whatever comes along, whatever new proclaimation is being made, while being warned not to judge. What folly.

And so we find the Church suffering fools gladly, all while discernment is greatly lacking.

 

[Alive_Again]

What I hear from your writing is that you may not understand the difference between condemnation and discernment. These two judgments are thoroughly described in Scripture, and yet most of the Church knows only that they shouldn't "judge," never mind the distinctions.

I can only say to walk in what you know the Lord has shown you. If you are a pastor and it is your flock, then you become accountable for those things in the church. If as a watchman, you believe some practice is not of God in your church, feel free to bring it to the light to those whom are appropriate. If it is of God, then your fruits of love and peace will still be evident.

"A spiritual man judges all things" we are told, and the only way that skill can be achieved is by exercising one's spiritual senses to discern good and evil.

All things, not all people. If the blind lead the blind, we know where they will end up. If we spend our focus on what God is showing us and leave everyone else behind (as far as taking up the responsibility to "put the church aright"), then you are running the race without the weight of what is often a judgmental spirit. Are not our judgments that we judge a "weighing" of the things we encounter for the purpose of walking (or not) in them?

Sadly, the Church, and especially the charismatic groups, have very little ability to discern. They take in whatever comes along, whatever new proclaimation is being made, while being warned not to judge. What folly.

I will pray for the church, but the Lord asked me to stop judging His church (for its obvious shortcomings) and leave that to Him and to walk in what He shows me, for He will hold me accountable for that.