Ordo Salutis or Order of Salvation

[The Righterzpen]

I essentially agree with every word of this except for the one I've highlighted in red.

So who is it you suppose has faced the wrath of God other than Christ considering the final judgement is yet to take place? Again, I ask; since when is it just to punish someone without a trial?

This part doesn't make sense to me. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of takers on that theory. For example, "it is finished" may simply have been that Jesus had to wait for them to give him the vinegar to drink so that the prophecy would be fulfilled before his work "on the cross" was finished. It doesn't necessarily mean He went to Sheol and then the Lake of Fire in bodily form while on the cross.

"It is finished" in the Greek means "It's paid in full". What had Christ come to pay? That statement had nothing to do with drinking the vinegar / hyssop. Compare to John 19:28. What of "all things" had been accomplished?

It doesn't necessarily mean He went to Sheol and then the Lake of Fire in bodily form while on the cross.

Nothing in Scripture says Jesus was cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the punishment phase after the final judgement. Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:14)

Though Jesus was judged; the totality of what God is is greater than the wrath that is a result of God's holiness. God's own wrath can not consume Him; because it is not the whole of who He is. And since Christ is greater than God's judgement; he prevailed because Jesus himself hadn't sinned. Jesus had succeeded where Adam failed. Adam was not willing to sacrifice his own life on account of Eve. (Nor would his sacrifice have been acceptable if he had; because Adam himself had sinned at that point.)

Is this Reformed position or is this your position?

This is a dumb statement because even Arminians aren't going to say God is responsible for the fall. Do you believe God is responsible for the fall? You're assuming your accusation is going to stick; by making a statement that no one believes in the first place!

It's like accusing a person of believing in UFO's and they say: I don't believe in UFO's but you continue to insist that they do. That's an illogical position to stand on!

If every human being on earth ate the forbidden fruit - albeit Eve was deceived - and if man had dominion and authority over all of creation, I can see that every man and everything man had authority over could be compromised by sin.

We often do not have a good understanding of just how evil our sin is. Try the following mental exercise to understand just how evil sinning against God really is:

Every human being didn't have to eat the fruit, because we are all products of Adam; who's nature had been corrupted by his disobedience. Thus all born of his seed are born with this corrupt nature. Thus the only outcome of the corrupt nature is sin.

No one is judged by God because of their corrupt state; they are judged on account of their sin. Their death is earned as the wage of their sin.

For man's sin, the only true justice is that he and everything that was his would be punished. This is based on the infinite nature of God, not the worthiness of Adam or what he had dominion over.

Yes, and your previous statement (quoted below) is the demonstration that you missed this point!

Consider the act of killing a living creature. If we, for example, kill an ant, this is not a big crime. However, if we perform the same act of killing a living creature on a family’s much beloved pet dog can we say that this is the same as killing the ant, or is it worse? And what about killing another human being – is this the same as killing the dog or is it worse? We can see that the severity of the exact same action (killing a living creature) increases depending upon whom it’s perpetrated against. Now how evil would an offense against an infinite God be? It would be infinitely evil, wouldn’t it? Because of the infinite nature of God, sin is an infinitely evil action. To let an infinitely evil act go unpunished would itself be infinitely unjust. Furthermore, the only valid justice for an infinitely evil action is an infinite punishment. That is what hell (and the Lake of Fire) is; it is an infinite justice commensurate with an infinitely evil crime.

Nothing that committed sin existed before God did; so thus sin isn't actually "infinitely" evil.

Now if all creation was only subject to destruction and there was no redemption plan and thus no eternal life; that would have been it. There would have been no never ending judgement of the wicked either. The fact that there is a redemption plan makes the Lake of Fire never ending. Yet evil, the fall and sin had a commencement point. Thus it is not "infinite".

And the fact that in time God who has no ending took on the nature of the created to atone for sin, is what necessitates eternal life. The incarnation made a permanent (would I call it an "expansion" / a "change" a "state of existence"?) God does not change; yet the form of the son took on human nature. Which made him "different" than what He was prior to creation. And this is why there is a recreated incorruptible cosmos that never ends.

I said Adam's corporate judgement has to be repealed or vacated and in its place will be the the Great White Throne judgment which is an individual judgement.

By "Adam's corporate judgement"; do you mean the state of corruption passed on by the fall?

That though hasn't been "repealed". And it's not necessary to "repeal", because it's simply a consequence of Adam's sin.

The great white throne judgment is the second judgment

The only judgement that has taken place yet in history is the cross. The elect were judged in Christ. The term "second judgement" isn't used because in one sense; the atonement was not "the first judgement"; it was actually the commencement of judgement. The "trial" (proverbially speaking) continues till the final resurrection.

The term "second death" is used in connection to the final judgement. (Those cast into the Lake of Fire endure the second death.)

The first resurrection is of those who are atoned for. And the various aspects of the atonement comprise that first resurrection.

Note those who died in Christ; their bodies are raised before the bodies of the remainder of the unregenerate. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) Though the unregenerate are raised on the heels of the resurrection of the bodies of the redeemed (who haven't already been raised). Go into the book of Revelation and look at "the last trump" (the 7th trump). That's judgement day.

Apparently after the resurrection of Christ there were some redeemed who were bodily raised and ascended to the New Jerusalem. (Matthew 27:53) Although there were also two known individuals who technically did not die. (Enoch and Elijah)

Repealing Adam's corporate judgement will have an effect of universal resurrection (resurrecting all who died under Adam's judgement - righteous or unrighteous - to face a new judgement). I think you agree with me regarding a universal resurrection as you believe all people are re-integrated with their bodies to face the Lake of Fire.

God doesn't need to repeal the fall though in order to raise people. Because the fall was not a "judgment" it was a consequence of Adam's sin.

Now the irony to this is that Abel was the first righteous one named. He apparently was the first human in the line of the redeemed. Adam was not atoned for; neither does it say Eve was righteous either. So in that sense; if you want to say Adam's "corporate judgment" remains on Adam and Eve eternally; that would be accurate.

Was there something about Adam's original state of awareness that caused God to pass him over as a candidate for redemption? I don't know the answer to that; but apparently Christ didn't atone for Adam; nor does it appear that He atoned for Eve either? (Despite Scripture states that she was deceived.)

I think you agree with me regarding a universal resurrection as you believe all people are re-integrated with their bodies to face the Lake of Fire.

Yes, the point of the final resurrection of the unregenerate is to face judgement as a complete person; because it wasn't "just in soul" that sin is committed.

Thus on account of the redemption of the elect; the atonement required that the Son have an earthly body.