Ordo Salutis or Order of Salvation

[Gup20]

Jude 1:9 (... did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”)

You don't have redemption. The Christ you believe in won't save you.

Too late, you already did it yourself

 

[The Righterzpen]

Too late, you already did it yourself

I never said you were eternally damned. (Although you very well may be; I don't know that.) I simply said that you do not possess a gospel that can save you. Because you believe redemption is dependent on your faith.

You also have some odd beliefs about "Abrahamic covenant". The covenant didn't raise Christ from the dead. And I'm not sure why you think it did?

Also, you haven't answered why you are in Semper Reformada. Why do you feel such a need to come in here and think you have to "straiten us all out"? Both myself and other people have more than adequately answered all of your objections. Not my problem if you don't want to heed the instruction of Scripture.

And you have all of my permission to believe in your little mind and heart that you won this argument. Nothing I (or anyone else in this forum) says is ever going to change your mind. That's why I quoted Jude 1:9.

But your welcome to believe what ever you want. You'll have to figure that out between you and God.

May He have mercy on your soul.

 

[Gup20]

I never said you were eternally damned. (Although you very well may be; I don't know that.) I simply said that you do not possess a gospel that can save you. Because you believe redemption is dependent on your faith.

You also have some odd beliefs about "Abrahamic covenant". The covenant didn't raise Christ from the dead. And I'm not sure why you think it did?

Also, you haven't answered why you are in Semper Reformada. Why do you feel such a need to come in here and think you have to "straiten us all out"? Both myself and other people have more than adequately answered all of your objections. Not my problem if you don't want to heed the instruction of Scripture.

And you have all of my permission to believe in your little mind and heart that you won this argument. Nothing I (or anyone else in this forum) says is ever going to change your mind. That's why I quoted Jude 1:9.

But your welcome to believe what ever you want. You'll have to figure that out between you and God.

May He have mercy on your soul.

God is sovereign ... it was His will that I posted it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

God is sovereign ... it was His will that I posted it.

LOL - it was also God's will that Satan fell. (And then Adam.)

 

[Gup20]

LOL - it was also God's will that Satan fell. (And then Adam.)

Is God completely sovereign, or was it Adam's choice to sin?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Is God completely sovereign, or was it Adam's choice to sin?

Are you attempting to hold God accountable for Adam's sin?

 

[Gup20]

Are you attempting to hold God accountable for Adam's sin?

I'm not doing anything... I'm just asking if that is what reformed theology teaches. Adam didn't have a sin nature, he had only a divine nature and there was no sin or death in the world. If God is completely sovereign, and if, as you said, it was God's will for Adam to sin, then does that mean that sin is God's will? Or did Adam, who didn't have a sin nature, violate God's will by committing the first sin? It's a complicated question.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Adam didn't have a sin nature, he had only a divine nature and there was no sin or death in the world.

Your premise that Adam didn't have a "sin nature" (depending on how you define that) is wrong. Adam had a nature that had the potential to be corrupted and that's why he sinned.

Adam did not have a Divine nature. If Adam had a Divine nature he would have been the incarnation of God. Christ is the only human being ever, who had a Divine nature. Although Jesus could have chosen to sin in his human nature; I believe the joining of the Divine nature to the human nature prevented that from happening.

Now what is the origin of evil is another question. My theory is that evil came about as a "reaction" to God's act of creating. My hypothesis comes out of the laws of physics.

In my theory, evil is not the "opposite reaction" of God's Being; but only the opposite reaction of what God did. Evil is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal or eternal.

The fact that God knew evil would become part of the picture, is because God possesses the knowledge of good and evil. (Of course He would; He's omniscient.) God is not capable of being corrupted by that knowledge though because He's omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immortal and eternal.

The Divine nature of Christ's personhood was all these things; though the fullness of this was not incorporated into his human experience. The temporal reality of his humanity prevented the manifestation of that fullness. But the Divine aspect of his personhood is most likely why Jesus didn't (and couldn't) sin.

Adam was only created in God's image; not of God's substance. Thus Adam was temporal and mortal and corruptible.

Now "evil" as a "conceptual power" can't "do" anything until an entity with an actionable will acts upon it. The first entity to do so was Lucifer. Satan fell before Adam did.

God knowing all this would happen though decided before He ever commenced creating anything; how He was going to tackle this issue and the result was the redemption plan that He enacted before the foundation of the world.

And in knowing that the coming corruption was not conquerable by the created cosmos; He developed a plan that required Him to predestine, elect and atone for those that He would save.

Thus... "in the beginning" and here we are!

 

[Gup20]

Perhaps divine nature was too generous for Adam. We can certainly say Adam was good… or even very good, and had no evil in him. It sounds like you are saying Adam had a free will (actionable will) having only the knowledge of Good & not the knowledge of evil. Do reformed, then put the responsibility for Adam’s sin on Adam who had no knowledge of evil or on God who had the knowledge of good and evil, and if Adam had free will to choose to sin, how is that squared with God’s sovereignty?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Perhaps divine nature was too generous for Adam. We can certainly say Adam was good… or even very good, and had no evil in him. It sounds like you are saying Adam had a free will (actionable will) having only the knowledge of Good & not the knowledge of evil. Do reformed, then put the responsibility for Adam’s sin on Adam who had no knowledge of evil or on God who had the knowledge of good and evil, and if Adam had free will to choose to sin, how is that squared with God’s sovereignty?

Define "free will". All creatures with a large enough cerebral cortex; bear the capacity (even now) to act independently of the will, intent, or desire of other creatures. I'd use the term "independent volition" because "free will" is such a theologically loaded term. My cat has an independent volition and she demonstrates that every time she does something I tell her not to.

Today though, everything is subject to the affects of the fall. Not only is everything affected by the choices made by individual creatures. Carbon based life is affected by disease and disaster too. That's all a consequence of the fall. Thus now "evil" has demonstrated it's presence in the current material world.

There are also non-carbon based entities in operation. (Angels and demons, as well as possibly other "extraterrestrial (material) life forms") All of which bear the capacity for independent choice also.

Ones that bear a certain capacity for sentience are accountable to God for their individual sinful choices. The difference between fallen man and fallen angel is that fallen man, even outside of redemption; still bears the capacity for moral good. Humans can choose moral good or they can commit moral evil. The fact that humans bear this capacity is the reason why civilizations rarely ever totally come unglued. There remains rules of some sort of ethos that facilitates cooperation in the quest for survival. This capacity is because humans created in the image of God have a conscience.

But animals too bear a certain capacity for cooperative survival skills. Animals certainly have some capacity of emotional attachment. That type of intelligence exists in the material world outside of humans. And I theorize that the reason for that is because all life forms are "alive" because of the breath of life. The breath of life comes from God; So therefore life (even in a fallen state) still bears some capacity of the reflection of God's good nature.

Humans though are accountable to God post death for their moral sin. They are also accountable to other humans in this life. (Thus why we have the concept of "the justice system".) Animals are only "accountable" in this life. Thus why humans kill animals who attack humans. Animals themselves also will kill other animals both out of food source as well as to establish a hierarchy that maintains some form of cooperative order.

Fallen angels though operate on a very different paradigm. When they fall, they lose the capacity for all moral good. This is why Jesus described Satan as a liar and murderer from the beginning and there is no good thing in him. (The "beginning" here is the beginning of his fall. Lucifer was not created as an evil entity.)

Lucifer is described as "the covering cherub" who was the "floor" so to speak; of the material realm. My theory is that Lucifer's "job" was to prevent the evil / corruption / darkness / potential for rebellion that came about as a reaction to God's creating. It's original "place" of containment was "the face of the deep" and Lucifer's job was the "covering cherub" of "the face of the deep".

Well Lucifer fell out of pride when he decided to act upon the evil that he was assigned to restrain. I believe Lucifer fell at the point Adam was created. Adam was given a position of ruling over Lucifer and Lucifer was jealous of Adam because he perceived Adam as being an inferior creation to himself (probably) on account of Adam's material nature.

So "Satan" (what Lucifer becomes post fall) is removed as the covering of "the deep" and cast into it. The "deep" the "pit" I hypothesis is what becomes The Lake of Fire on the other side of the cosmos. Is "the pit" and "hell" the same place? That I don't know. Sheol / hell is the "holding place" of disembodied human souls. Today, those in hell are awaiting the final judgement.

Scripture says "the wages of sin is death". That's the "Divine justice system" of the law. The degree of punishment one receives by God's judgement is dependent on the "wages" they earned. The "wages" earned is dependent on the degree, capacity and depth of sin they committed. And because all commit sin; the only outcome that system can produce is judgement.

Thus the need for redemption. Because Divine justice can only be adequately addressed by God; that is why the incarnation is the creation of a human Redeemer who is the incarnation of the 2nd person of the Trinity. Only God can address the wrath of God that is demanded because of God's holy nature.

And because the fall created a state that man rebelled against God and lost the capacity to return to that state of obedience Adam first existed in; this made the predetermination of election necessary. Human will was not free. It had been corrupted by evil. Although interestingly; humans by nature of our rebellion have an innate desire to not be ruled over by anyone. God or Satan; so thus human rebellious nature can work to the moral good of God's intent even. Thus the "moral right" implication "tacked" onto the concept of going to war. (One example.) Wars can liberate populations from tyranny because humans by nature do not want to be ruled over by anyone!

Now God's sovereign will is accomplished because God by nature of the entity that He is (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal and eternal) has the capacity to operate in "real time" of His ability to influence (or remove His hand of restraint) upon the moral actions of material life. Satan and fallen angels are predictable though. God knows what they will do and irony of all irony; God often moves (even unregenerate men) to stand in Satan's way; from propagating absolute destruction. God also controls the natural operation of how the creation is designed for the good of His purposes too. For example; This is why Covid and subsequent jabbies have not killed as many people thus far, as they were designed to. God operates against that end.

And here is how wills of Creator and creatures interact in the material cosmos.

 

[Gup20]

I would define free will simply as the ability to make choices that are not predetermined by an outside force or actor.

You’ve clearly put a lot of thought into this. Can you show passages of scripture from which you’ve derived your theorized position?

My own idea of the origin of the sin nature flow from a passage in Hebrews:

Hebrews 2:14-16 (NASB20) 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.

I think it was Adam’s corporate death judgement which spread death to all and thereby enslaved man to the sin nature.

I see Adam as having “independent volition” to act contrary to his existing nature (which God called “very good”) and sin.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I would define free will simply as the ability to make choices that are not predetermined by an outside force or actor.

Theologically though, the definition of "free will" goes beyond this, to include a will that is not corrupted by the fall and is not subject to the commission of moral sin because of the fall. To make a choice not predetermined by an outside force is only part of the equation. You have to consider what other forces are in play against that will.

And since that will is capable of being corrupted simply by the temporal nature that it is; theologically speaking "free will" doesn't exist.

Thus does this simply become a difference in understanding of terminology; or is there something more pervasive than just the nuts and bolts of language going on here?

You’ve clearly put a lot of thought into this. Can you show passages of scripture from which you’ve derived your theorized position?

You mean that human will is subject to corruption?

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12
"There's none that understand. There's none that seek after God" Romans 3:11

those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

But why do they fear death? Is it actually death that's feared or judgement? If one has the capacity to escape judgement of their own "free will" than why fear it?

I see Adam as having “independent volition” to act contrary to his existing nature (which God called “very good”) and sin.

Adam's nature was either corruptible or it wasn't. The statement "good" there is not one of moral absolution. "Good" there means "pleasing". "Good" there means God was happy with what He'd created. It doesn't mean that Adam was incorruptible. (And God knew that; yet He was still pleased with what He'd created. And God could only be legitimately pleased because He know He was not responsible for what would inevitably transpire. Out of perfectly right intention; God created. Despite knowing corruption would inevitably over take it.

So thus was God pleased with what He'd created; or rather how His creation would play out as His redemption plan unfolded? (I would say it was the second reason why God was pleased.) He knew His redemption plan was infallible because it was solely dependent on Him!
He made it solely dependent on HIs own actions because He knew humanity did not bear the attribute required, because we are not God.

 

[Gup20]

But why do they fear death? Is it actually death that's feared or judgement? If one has the capacity to escape judgement of their own "free will" than why fear it?

Death IS the judgement. Adam was judged with death (for dust you are to to dust you will return). This was a corporate, universal curse on all of creation. For Adam's single sin, both Adam and Eve, the animals, the plants, and the ground itself each obtained a curse and judgement. Scripture says that the whole of creation waits and groans for the revealing of the children of God.

[Rom 5:12 NASB95] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned​

It doesn't say sin was spread or guilt was spread... it says death was spread to all men. All of us justly deserve that death because we all sin. Until Christ, no one was able to live a fully righteous life, so the universal, corporate judgement was just and justified.

But at Christ's appearing, a new, righteous man came into the world who was able to live a fully righteous life. Because of this, Adam's universal, corporate judgement has to be repealed or vacated in lieu of individual judgements. This is how the resurrection will take place.

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

So the very appearance of a righteous person (note it doesn't say by his death or sacrifice, but by his appearing) death, Adam's original judgement, is abolished. This makes sense... the corporate, universal judgement is only just if there isn't a single righteous person. As soon as there is 1 righteous person, Adam's corporate judgement is no longer just. Reminds me of the passage in Revelation;

[Rev 5:2-5 NASB95] 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."​

This necessitates a resurrection of everyone who died under Adam's judgement (both saved and unsaved). And that is exactly what Scripture indicates.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So ALL are raised from the dead as Adam's universal, corporate judgement is abolished. Then, they face individual judgements at the Great White Throne judgement and it is at THAT judgement where the righteousness which comes by faith is applied to the believer's account. Those will have a resurrection to eternal life, and those without faith will have a resurrection to a second judgement of death (a second death) and eternal torment. Unlike Adam's universal, corporate judgment, the Great White Throne judgement will be individual.

[Rev 20:11-15 NASB95] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

 

[The Righterzpen]

Death IS the judgement

Define death. According to the language in Genesis "the day that you eat of this you shall surely die" was not only physical death. It also entailed a spiritual separation from God as well as eternal wrath.

We know it's not mere physical death because anyone who dies thus will effectually have paid for their own sin. Which obviously doesn't account for the need for atonement or the reality of the Lake of Fire post the final Judgement.

You quoted Revelation 21:8

Adam's universal, corporate judgement has to be repealed or vacated in lieu of individual judgements.

Then why do plants and animals still die? And what of those who died before the incarnation? What happens to them; are those who are condemned, not judged as individuals? Your assertions here make no sense in the light of both redemptive as well as earthy history.

Until Christ, no one was able to live a fully righteous life, so the universal, corporate judgement was just and justified.

But at Christ's appearing, a new, righteous man came into the world who was able to live a fully righteous life.

So the very appearance of a righteous person (note it doesn't say by his death or sacrifice, but by his appearing) death,

So do you not believe that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead? What you're propagating here looks more like gnosticism than Christianity.

As it looks like you believe Jesus was able to "tap into the God essence" and live a righteous life; so therefor because Christ broke through that proverbial glass ceiling; now you too can live a righteous life if you just "tap into that God essence".

That's eastern mysticism.

 

[Gup20]

Define death. According to the language in Genesis "the day that you eat of this you shall surely die" was not only physical death. It also entailed a spiritual separation from God as well as eternal wrath.

We know it's not mere physical death because anyone who dies thus will effectually have paid for their own sin. Which obviously doesn't account for the need for atonement or the reality of the Lake of Fire post the final Judgement.

I agree it was both physical and spiritual death. The phrase "you shall surly die" is literally translated from the Hebrew, "and dying, you shall die." This indicates they would start dying and after a process be dead. We know that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord, and the early humans lived over 900 but less than 1000 years.

Then why do plants and animals still die? And what of those who died before the incarnation? What happens to them; are those who are condemned, not judged as individuals? Your assertions here make no sense in the light of both redemptive as well as earthy history.

Animals have blood and "nephesh Chaya" (soulish life - just as people do). This is why Abel's sacrifice was acceptable and Cain's was not. Plants are biological machines with no consciousness or soulish life. Adam and Eve had dominion over the animals, and when they sinned they sinned for all under their authority. Isaiah says

Isa 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.

When death is eliminated, it will have an affect on the animals as well and they will go back to vegetarian as they were when before sin and death. They will have a change in their very nature.

Isa 65:25 NASB95 25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

Since it was Adam's judgement which changed them, a repeal of Adam's judgement will restore them. This probably means that not only will all human beings who ever lived be resurrected, but probably all animals who ever lived as well ... though to be clear, the Bible never mentions the resurrection of animals, so I hold to that quite loosely.

[Rom 5:12-14 NASB95] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

The only "law" given by God was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet everyone between Adam and Moses died despite none of them being guilty of Adam's sin. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. So in Moses day, the Law was given and it showed all those between Adam and Moses to have been sinners. Nonetheless, God cursed the whole creation for Adam's sin and never lifted that curse.

So do you not believe that Jesus literally died and rose from the dead? What you're propagating here looks more like gnosticism than Christianity.

As it looks like you believe Jesus was able to "tap into the God essence" and live a righteous life; so therefor because Christ broke through that proverbial glass ceiling; now you too can live a righteous life if you just "tap into that God essence".

That's eastern mysticism.

Yes, I believe Jesus literally died (physically and spiritually) and literally rose from the dead (physically and spiritually).

"Tap into the essence of God" --? What is that? That doesn't sound like anything I've ever read in scripture. Not sure where that comparison came from.

I'm saying that, so long as there was no one righteous... not even one... the corporate punishment was just. IF there is a righteous person -- even one -- then a corporate judgment is not just and needs to be repealed so that all can be judged as individuals.

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Looks at Ordo Salutis and compares:

Calvinist
Arminian
Catholic

What is the ordo salutis?

The Ordo salutis (order of salvation) deals with the order of work of God in saving a person. Calvinist, Arminian, and Catholic perspectives differ.

carm.org

 

[The Righterzpen]

he phrase "you shall surly die" is literally translated from the Hebrew, "and dying, you shall die." This indicates they would start dying and after a process be dead.

What about eternal wrath. There's physical death, spiritual death and eternal judgment. No one escapes all three. For the elect though, Christ is the substitute.

Plants are biological machines with no consciousness or soulish life.

Plants contain "the breath of life" and it's "the breath of life" that makes one "a living soul". Now what is "living soul" in context of plant, animal and human are different. But to say plants are mere "biological machines" is not accurate either; particularly if you know anything about botany.

For example; adult trees shunt nutrients to the seeds that they dropped and actually will shunt nutrients away from competing plants. How is it a tree knows which seed belongs to it?

Another example: when there's a forest fire, trees will send out chemical signals that other trees pick up. The result is that the trees will than shut down their photosynthesis processes and shunt all the nutrients and water into the roots; so the tree can later send up new shoots and ultimately survive the fire.

Now how trees and plants do any of this; we don't understand. We don't even understand how "active transport" gets water and nutrients from the roots to the leaves of a tree that's more than a foot high. Simple osmosis doesn't have the capacity to overcome gravity beyond maybe 6 inches. Pin a paper towel up with one end in a glass of water and observe how far up the paper towel is able to get wet. That's simple osmosis. Trees obviously operate on more than just osmosis; thus evidence that we don't understand how trees actually grow.

The complexity of the entire ecosystem is not only evidence of Intelligent design; it's evidence of intelligent life.

When death is eliminated, it will have an affect on the animals as well and they will go back to vegetarian as they were when before sin and death. They will have a change in their very nature.

The recreated cosmos is incorruptible; so thus life doesn't merely go back to "like it was in Eden" status. So when the cosmos is recreated; it's different not only in nature; but also "substance". It is no longer a temporal creation subject to corruption and death.

Since it was Adam's judgement which changed them, a repeal of Adam's judgement will restore them.

Apparently though "Adam's judgment" had not been repealed because plants and animals still die.

This probably means that not only will all human beings who ever lived be resurrected, but probably all animals who ever lived as well ... though to be clear, the Bible never mentions the resurrection of animals, so I hold to that quite loosely.

No, the Bible does actually talk about the resurrection of animals (and plants); because it speaks of the creature being changed. Compare Romans 8:21 to Revelation 5:13

The only "law" given by God was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet everyone between Adam and Moses died despite none of them being guilty of Adam's sin. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. So in Moses day, the Law was given and it showed all those between Adam and Moses to have been sinners. Nonetheless, God cursed the whole creation for Adam's sin and never lifted that curse.

Actually the first command given to all creation was "be fruitful and multiply".

The first recorded command given to Adam and Eve was to keep the garden.

Post fall, they witnessed God sacrificing an animal to clothe them. And apparently in some format they were commanded to carry this practice on. Thus we see all sorts of people prior to Moses performing animal sacrifices.

So "the LAW" (of which God governs the universe, which includes what we'd call "the moral law") existed before Moses began the compilation of the canon.

Now the Scripture does talk about "cursing the ground for Adam's sake" and that being rescinded post flood. (Genesis 3:17, Genesis 5:29, Genesis 8:21)

But that "cursing the ground" was not the same as the consequence of death that the fall brought into creation. Thus all life still dies. Yet come the recreated heavens and earth; death will be done away with.

I'm saying that, so long as there was no one righteous... not even one... the corporate punishment was just. IF there is a righteous person -- even one -- then a corporate judgment is not just and needs to be repealed so that all can be judged as individuals.

Again though, your assertion here doesn't match either Scripture, or this world we live in.

 

[Gup20]

What about eternal wrath. There's physical death, spiritual death and eternal judgment. No one escapes all three. For the elect though, Christ is the substitute.

I agree. We can see that ALL people (including Christ) went to Hell after they died, and this didn't change until after Christ's resurrection where He took the keys to Death and Hades.

Luk 16:23 NASB95 - 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.​

​

Act 2:32-34 NASB95 - 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,​

Here we see that Abraham, even though he had been credited with righteousness, was still technically in Hell, though it seems he was in "paradise" - a non-tormented part of Hell. I say "paradise" because Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him "this day you will be with me in Paradise" though Jesus did not ascend to the Father until 3 days later when He told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. So Paradise must be the non-tormented part of Hades. Similarly, David did not ascend into heaven.

Rev 1:18 NASB95 - 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.​

Plants contain "the breath of life" and it's "the breath of life" that makes one "a living soul". Now what is "living soul" in context of plant, animal and human are different. But to say plants are mere "biological machines" is not accurate either; particularly if you know anything about botany.

For example; adult trees shunt nutrients to the seeds that they dropped and actually will shunt nutrients away from competing plants. How is it a tree knows which seed belongs to it?

Another example: when there's a forest fire, trees will send out chemical signals that other trees pick up. The result is that the trees will than shut down their photosynthesis processes and shunt all the nutrients and water into the roots; so the tree can later send up new shoots and ultimately survive the fire.

Now how trees and plants do any of this; we don't understand. We don't even understand how "active transport" gets water and nutrients from the roots to the leaves of a tree that's more than a foot high. Simple osmosis doesn't have the capacity to overcome gravity beyond maybe 6 inches. Pin a paper towel up with one end in a glass of water and observe how far up the paper towel is able to get wet. That's simple osmosis. Trees obviously operate on more than just osmosis; thus evidence that we don't understand how trees actually grow.

The complexity of the entire ecosystem is not only evidence of Intelligent design; it's evidence of intelligent life.

From Did Death of Any Kind Exist Before the Fall?

A second reason why Genesis 1 demands that there was no death of any kind before Adam rebelled is the vegetarian diet prescribed both to man and animals in Genesis 1:29–30 ruling out any carnivorous behavior before the Fall.​

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There are objections to this, however, as some believe that if plants were eaten then this would have brought about the death of the plants. John Lennox reasons that since man ate plants then plant death cannot be an issue or a consequence of human sin, even though plants did die (Lennox 2011, p. 78). This overlooks the fact that plants are not looked upon as being “alive in biblical Hebrew or in second Temple Jewish literature” (Kennard 2008, p. 169).​

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Plants neither feel pain nor die in the sense that animals and humans do as “Plants are never the subject of חָיָה ” (Gerleman 1997, p. 414). Plants are not described as “living creatures” as humans, land animals, and sea creature are (Genesis 1:20–21, 24 and 30; Genesis 2:7; Genesis 6:19–20 and Genesis 9:10–17), and the words that are used to describe their termination are more descriptive such as “wither” or “fade” (Psalm 37:2; 102:11; Isaiah 64:6).​

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A further objection to no death before sin is again raised by Lennox who suggests that no animal death before human sin makes the existence of predators problematic (Lennox 2011, p. 79), suggesting that if predators were the result of the Fall:​

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… would it not make that sin the trigger of a creation process—a feature that seems very unlikely, and on which the Bible appears to be silent? Or did God foresee the change, build the mechanisms into the creatures in advance, and then do something to set them in operation? (Lennox 2011, p. 79)​

The problems that Lennox raises for no animal death before the Fall are understandable, but they can be answered within a biblical framework. The Bible never uses the Hebrew term nephesh chayyah (living soul/creature) when referring to invertebrates, but it does when referring to humans and fish (Genesis 1:20; 2:7). Also, insects do not have the same sort of “blood” that vertebrates do, yet “the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11) (Sarfati 2004, p. 211). It is reasonable then to assume that the pre-Fall diet of animals could have included invertebrates. Even so, if we consider the fact that God foreknew the Fall (1 Peter 1:18–20; Ephesians 3:11; Revelation 13:8), then it is also logical that he programmed creatures with the information for attack and defence features, which they would need in a cursed world. This information was “switched on” at the Fall (Sarfati 2004, p. 212).​

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Plants don't have the "breath of life" in that they breath in carbon dioxide and not oxygen. Blood requires oxygen. Life is in the blood (Lev 17:11, 14). The fact that they were prohibited from eating blood because "life is in the blood" but never prohibited from eating plants (they had no "life" in the same sense that humans and animals have life) shows that plants were not alive in a nephesh chaya sense (soulish life). Again, this is why animals could be a temporary substitutionary atonement, but plants could not.... and so why Abel's offering was pleasing to God, but Cain's was not.

Death before the fall is a salient topic here because we're talking about original sin, original death. Romans 5:12 says death came into the world because of Adam's sin. Without Adam's sin, we would have no death in the world. The scripture seems to hold Adam (not God) accountable for sin and thereby death.

Rom 5:12 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned​

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1Co 15:21-22 NASB95 - 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

God then stands as a judge to sin (the wages of sin is death), not it's ultimate cause. I'm curious how Reformed adherents deal with this... if they ultimately had to blame God for Adam's sin (which I think would be more consistent with how they treat the faith of the believer) or if Adam had enough volitional agency to sin of his own choosing despite it being completely contrary to his nature and despite knowing only good and not evil. How does that jive with God's ultimate sovereignty? It seems like Calvinists say Adam had "free will" to choose to sin, but now that we have the knowledge of both good and evil we don't have the "free will" to choose to believe. I was curious how Reformists treat this. I am legitimately ignorant of how Reformed Theology treats this and am asking the direct question; "Is God ultimately the cause of Adam's sin in Reformed doctrine?"

The first command given to all creation was "be fruitful and multiply".

I agree. "Do not eat" of the tree is the first "do not" given... what I would call "the law." The rules. I think Paul was talking about this in Rom 5:14.

Post fall, they witnessed God sacrificing an animal to clothe them.

Agreed.

But that "cursing the ground" was not the same as the consequence of death that the fall brought into creation. Thus all life still dies. Yet come the recreated heavens and earth; death will be done away with.

I can get behind that and agree.

However, I do still see Adam's initial judgement as universal and corporate.

Rom 8:19-22 NASB20 - 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons [and daughters] of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected [it,] in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

 

[The Righterzpen]

I agree. We can see that ALL people (including Christ) went to Hell after they died, and this didn't change until after Christ's resurrection where He took the keys to Death and Hades.

Sheol / hell is but a holding place where disembodied human souls await judgement. The Lake of Fire is the "punishment stage" of Divine justice. When those who receive judgement for the "wages of sin" they have committed; they are complete entities again; (body, soul, spirit). And they are cast into eternal judgement as whole individuals.

Thus Sheol / hell is not the final place of judgement that one goes to when they die.

Now when Jesus took on the wrath of God to atone for sin; what happened to him? (He faced eternal punishment. He "tread the winepress of the wrath of almighty God" (Revelation 19:15) Jesus is the only entity who has faced the judgement of God thus far. And he confronted that on behalf of the elect.
HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL - Mark 9:43, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10, Psalm 9:5, Psalm 6:2.

JESUS ENDURED WRATH - Acts 2:27-31, Psalm 16:10

"lowest hell" - Psalm 86:13

"lowest pit" - Psalm 88:6-157

"pit" = wrath of God - Revelation 20:10

"cup" = wrath of God - Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:8-10, Revelation 8:11

Jesus had - Matthew 26:39

"counted as a transgressor" - Psalm 88:4, Mark 15:28, Isaiah 53:12

"wine press" = wrath of God Jesus tread it alone - Isaiah 53:3, Revelation 19:15

"Low I come in the volume of the book it is written of me to do thy will, 0God"

Psalm 40: 68, Hebrews 10:7

Now when did Jesus endure the wrath of God? It wasn't after he died; he actually endured it before he physically died. And this is why he could say "It is finished." (John 19:30) and why he said to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise".

Now where's "paradise"? Paradise is in the 3rd heaven. Paul explains this in 2 Corinthians 12. Revelation 2:7 gives more definition to what is in paradise. "Paradise" / "the third heaven" is the domaine of the presence of God.

Now how do we this and when it happened? Luke 22:43 tells us that an angel came to Jesus and this encounter "strengthened" Jesus. What was that angel? Go back to Exodus. What angel passed through the land at midnight on the Passover? (The angel of death.) So what happened to Jesus? The angel of death removes the breath of life which consigns the human soul to Sheol / hades. Jesus doesn't die though because he has a Divine nature. And the angel of death has no jurisdiction over Christ's Divine nature.

So, what actually kills Jesus? (The renting of the Divine nature from the human flesh.) Once Jesus dies; we pick up what happened in Revelation 5. He is the lamb "as was slain" standing before the Father to open the seals on the scroll. Who appears in heaven with him? (A multitude of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation that no man can count.) These are stated as "those who came out of great tribulation". Well, when was the "great tribulation". (It was part of the atonement.) Well how do we know that? Because Jesus said that unless that tribulation was shortened "no flesh would be saved". (Matthew 24:22)

So when was "flesh saved"? When was the atonement completed? It was completed at the cross. There's nothing that can stop what's coming. Nothing stands in the way of the recreated heavens and earth. Nothing stands in the way of the coming final judgement either. All that the Son came to do in relation to securing the atonement has been established.

There are objections to this, however, as some believe that if plants were eaten then this would have brought about the death of the plants.

Plants contain the breath of life: (Job 33:4). Since we consider plants to be "life forms" they must contain the breath of life. Because as Job 33:4 states; the breath of life makes one "alive".

The flood account speaks of "all flesh where in is the breath of life" dies. Is that making a distinction between animal life and plant life? Plants obviously have "bodies" but they are not the same as an animal body.

And Genesis 2:7 states that the breath of life makes one "a living soul".

Deuteronomy 24:4 says not to cause "the land to sin". Now how exactly does land "sin"? Are plants affected by the fall? (Apparently they are!)

Now Adam and Eve were told to eat the fruit of the trees. They weren't told to eat the trees themselves. Assuming the same goes for the animal population prior to the fall. Genesis 1:29 Isaiah 44:19 talks about the "stock" of a tree. (It's fruit) That word "stock" comes from a verb meaning "to bring forth". Again, what is consumed is the seed the plant brings forth; not necessarily the plant itself. Though obviously, we get more plants from their seed and most plants; (like most animals) are technically edible.

Leviticus 17:11 "The life is in the blood." That's a different word "life" than "breath of life". The word "life" in Job 33:4 is the same word "life" in "breath of life". But it's not the same word Leviticus uses for "life" being "in the blood".

God then stands as a judge to sin (the wages of sin is death), not it's ultimate cause. I'm curious how Reformed adherents deal with this... if they ultimately had to blame God for Adam's sin (which I think would be more consistent with how they treat the faith of the believer) or if Adam had enough volitional agency to sin of his own choosing despite it being completely contrary to his nature and despite knowing only good and not evil. How does that jive with God's ultimate sovereignty? It seems like Calvinists say Adam had "free will" to choose to sin, but now that we have the knowledge of both good and evil we don't have the "free will" to choose to believe. I was curious how Reformists treat this. I am legitimately ignorant of how Reformed Theology treats this and am asking the direct question; "Is God ultimately the cause of Adam's sin in Reformed doctrine?"

I already explained this to you; the answer is "no". God is not responsible for the fall.

Sovereignty does not mean God needs to "micromanage" the cosmos. He is omnipotent, and omnipresent. He is capable of "acting in real time" to accomplish His will. And because of the entity that He is; His will "trumps" everyone else's wills.

Theologically speaking; a "free will" is not the same thing as having an independent volition. My cat has an independent volition. And she demonstrates that every time she does something I tell her not to.

Theologically speaking; a "free will" is a will that is not encumbered by the fall or one's own sin.

In that sense Adam and Eve started out with "free will"; but they were not of the nature that was incorruptible. For if they had been, they never would have fallen. Jesus was a very different entity than Adam; having two natures in one person. The fact that Jesus had a dimension to his personhood that was Divine; was most likely the reason he didn't sin. If Jesus did not have a Divine nature; he would have been corruptible just as Adam was.

However, I do still see Adam's initial judgement as universal and corporate.

Your assertion here is against the definition of Divine judgement.

What would you think of "justice" that took everyone present at a political protest and executed them as criminals simply because they were there? That would not be justice; of neither human justice or Divine justice.

When Christ provided atonement; He did so for individuals. There is no nation that Christ atoned for it's sin. Why? Because individuals stand before God in judgement to give account for their own actions. That is how it has always been. There's no such thing as "corporate justice". Why should person A face judgement because they are present at location (or time) B?

That's not justice.

I know certain theological bents use this idea of "corporate redemption" to "excuse" "jews" from being commanded to believe on Christ just as any other individual human is called to. But God does not have grandchildren. A "jew" isn't a Jew because he's a descendent of Abraham. All who are in Christ are the true Jews.

 

[Gup20]

Sheol / hell is but a holding place where disembodied human souls await judgement. The Lake of Fire is the "punishment stage" of Divine justice. When those who receive judgement for the "wages of sin" they have committed; they are complete entities again; (body, soul, spirit). And they are cast into eternal judgement as whole individuals.

Thus Sheol / hell is not the final place of judgement that one goes to when they die.

Now when Jesus took on the wrath of God to atone for sin; what happened to him? (He faced eternal punishment. He "tread the winepress of the wrath of almighty God" (Revelation 19:15) Jesus is the only entity who has faced the judgement of God thus far. And he confronted that on behalf of the elect.
HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL - Mark 9:43, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10, Psalm 9:5, Psalm 6:2.

JESUS ENDURED WRATH - Acts 2:27-31, Psalm 16:10

"lowest hell" - Psalm 86:13

"lowest pit" - Psalm 88:6-157

"pit" = wrath of God - Revelation 20:10

"cup" = wrath of God - Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:8-10, Revelation 8:11

Jesus had - Matthew 26:39

"counted as a transgressor" - Psalm 88:4, Mark 15:28, Isaiah 53:12

"wine press" = wrath of God Jesus tread it alone - Isaiah 53:3, Revelation 19:15

"Low I come in the volume of the book it is written of me to do thy will, 0God"

Psalm 40: 68, Hebrews 10:7

I essentially agree with every word of this except for the one I've highlighted in red.

Now when did Jesus endure the wrath of God? It wasn't after he died; he actually endured it before he physically died. And this is why he could say "It is finished." (John 19:30) and why he said to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise".

Now where's "paradise"? Paradise is in the 3rd heaven. Paul explains this in 2 Corinthians 12. Revelation 2:7 gives more definition to what is in paradise. "Paradise" / "the third heaven" is the domaine of the presence of God.

This part doesn't make sense to me. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of takers on that theory. For example, "it is finished" may simply have been that Jesus had to wait for them to give him the vinegar to drink so that the prophecy would be fulfilled before his work "on the cross" was finished. It doesn't necessarily mean He went to Sheol and then the Lake of Fire in bodily form while on the cross.

Psa 69:21 NASB95 - 21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.​

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Jhn 19:30 NASB95 - 30 Therefore when Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.​

It makes sense to me if there was a "tree of life" in heaven and a "tree of life" in the earth (since there is physical death and spiritual death).

Gen 2:9 NASB95 - 9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.​

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Gen 3:22, 24 NASB95 - 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ... 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Since the word "paradise" only appears twice in scripture, it's really hard to say for sure. But clearly, Abraham was "in Sheol" but not in torment, so there must be a part of Sheol in which the residents there were not tormented... but yet were separated from God. I guess I always assumed that the Tree of Life was "in the earth" which is also where Sheol is... so I assumed the tree of life was in Sheol (the non-tormented part).

I already explained this to you; the answer is "no". God is not responsible for the fall.

Is this Reformed position or is this your position?

Your assertion here is against the definition of Divine judgement.

What would you think of "justice" that took everyone present at a political protest and executed them as criminals simply because they were there? That would not be justice; of neither human justice or Divine justice.

If every human being on earth ate the forbidden fruit - albeit Eve was deceived - and if man had dominion and authority over all of creation, I can see that every man and everything man had authority over could be compromised by sin.

We often do not have a good understanding of just how evil our sin is. Try the following mental exercise to understand just how evil sinning against God really is:

Consider the act of killing a living creature. If we, for example, kill an ant, this is not a big crime. However, if we perform the same act of killing a living creature on a family’s much beloved pet dog can we say that this is the same as killing the ant, or is it worse? And what about killing another human being – is this the same as killing the dog or is it worse? We can see that the severity of the exact same action (killing a living creature) increases depending upon whom it’s perpetrated against. Now how evil would an offense against an infinite God be? It would be infinitely evil, wouldn’t it? Because of the infinite nature of God, sin is an infinitely evil action. To let an infinitely evil act go unpunished would itself be infinitely unjust. Furthermore, the only valid justice for an infinitely evil action is an infinite punishment. That is what hell (and the Lake of Fire) is; it is an infinite justice commensurate with an infinitely evil crime.​

For man's sin, the only true justice is that he and everything that was his would be punished. This is based on the infinite nature of God, not the worthiness of Adam or what he had dominion over.

When Christ provided atonement; He did so for individuals. There is no nation that Christ atoned for it's sin. Why? Because individuals stand before God in judgement to give account for their own actions. That is how it has always been. There's no such thing as "corporate justice".

I agree with this.

I know certain theological bents use this idea of "corporate redemption" to "excuse" "jews" from being commanded to believe on Christ just as any other individual human is called to. But God does not have grandchildren. A "jew" isn't a Jew because he's a descendent of Abraham. All who are in Christ are the true Jews.

Note, I didn't say that atonement (redemption) was corporate. I said atonement was applied to the individual. I said Adam's corporate judgement has to be repealed or vacated and in its place will be the the Great White Throne judgment which is an individual judgement. It is the great white throne judgment where our righteousness in Christ comes into play. The great white throne judgment is the second judgment (Adam's having been the first) and will result in those who do not have the righteousness of Christ being judged with a second death judgement (an individual death judgement). Repealing Adam's corporate judgement will have an effect of universal resurrection (resurrecting all who died under Adam's judgement - righteous or unrighteous - to face a new judgement). I think you agree with me regarding a universal resurrection as you believe all people are re-integrated with their bodies to face the Lake of Fire.