Ordo Salutis or Order of Salvation

[Elizabeth Daniels Jn316]

What are your thoughts on the order of salvation?



The Order of Application


BY JOHN MURRAY

When we think of the application of redemption we must not think of it as one simple and indivisible act. It comprises a series of acts and processes. To mention some, we have calling, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification. These are all distinct, and not one of these can be defined in terms of the other. Each has its own distinct meaning, function, and purpose in the action and grace of God.

God is not the author of confusion and therefore he is the author of order. There are good and conclusive reasons for thinking that the various actions of the application of redemption, some of which have been mentioned, take place in a certain order, and that order has been established by divine appointment, wisdom, and grace. It is quite apparent to every one that it would be impossible to start off with glorification, for glorification is at the far end of the process as its completion and consummation, and it is scarcely less apparent that regeneration would have to precede sanctification. A man must surely be born again before he can be progressively sanctified. Regeneration is the inception of being made holy and sanctification is the continuance. Hence it requires no more than the most elementary knowledge of these various terms to see that we cannot turn them around and mix them up in any way we please. But we may also look at a few passages of Scripture to show that there is clearly implied an order or arrangement in the various steps of the application of redemption.

If we take, first of all, such well-known texts as John 3:3, 5, our Lord told Nicodemus that except a man be born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God and except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Obviously, seeing and entering into the kingdom of God belong to the application of redemption, and our Lord indicates that apart from the new birth, regeneration, there cannot be this seeing or entering into the kingdom of God. It follows that regeneration is prior and it would plainly be impossible to reverse the order and say that a man is regenerated by seeing or entering into the kingdom of God. No, a man enters the kingdom of God by regeneration. As Jesus says again (John 3:6), "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

We may also examine a closely related text, I John 3:9: "Every one who is born of God does not do sin, because his seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." John is dealing here, no doubt, with deliverance from the reigning power of sin. Such deliverance is part of the application of redemption. But the text demonstrates that the reason why a person is delivered from the reigning power of sin is that he is born of God, and the reason he continues in this freedom from the ruling and directing power of sin is that the seed of God abides in him. Here we have clearly the order of causation and explanation. The new birth causes and explains the state of freedom from the domination of sin and is therefore prior to such freedom. The regenerated person does not commit the sin which is unto death (I John 5:16) and the reason is that he is born of God and God's seed is always in him to keep him from that grievous and irreparable sin.

Still further, let us look at John 1:12. We may focus our attention on two subjects with which this text deals, namely, the reception of Christ and the bestowment of authority to become the sons of God. We may properly call them faith and adoption. The text says distinctly that "as many as received him, to them gave he authority to become children of God." The bestowment of this authority, which we may for, our present purposes equate with adoption, presupposes the reception of Christ, namely, faith in his name. This is to the effect of saying that adoption presupposes faith, and therefore faith is prior to adoption. So we should have to follow the order, faith and adoption.

Finally, we may glance at one passage in Paul, Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." The sealing with the Holy Spirit is that which follows upon the hearing of the word of truth and believing. Hearing and believing are therefore prior in order and cannot be made to follow the sealing of the Spirit.

These few texts have been appealed to simply for the purpose of showing that there is order which must be maintained and cannot be reversed without violating the plain import of these texts. These texts prove the fact of order and show that it is not empty logic to affirm divine order in the application of redemption. There is a divine logic in this matter and the order which we insist upon should be nothing more or less than what the Scriptures disclose to be the divine arrangement.

These texts, however, have not brought us very far in discovering what the order of arrangement is in connection with a good many of the actions which are comprised in the application of redemption. They have established a few things, indeed, but only a few. When we give a fuller enumeration of the several steps or aspects-calling, regeneration, conversion, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification-we can see that several questions remain undetermined. Which is prior, calling or justification? Is faith prior to justification or vice versa? Does regeneration come before calling?

There is one passage of Scripture which affords us a great deal of light on this question. It is Romans 8:30: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Here we have three acts of the application of redemption - calling, justification, and glorification. They appear in this text in that order. And the question arises: is this order intended to be the order of application and occurrence? Or is the order in the text simply one of convenience so that Paul could just as well have adopted another order?

One thing must be said by way of preface; it is that even if the order had been different, justification first and calling second, the main thought of the passage would not be disturbed. The main thought is the invariable conjunction and sequence of these divine acts and their indissoluble connection with God's eternal purpose of foreknowledge and predestination. For here we have a chain of unbreakable links beginning with foreknowledge and ending with glorification.

But there are overwhelming reasons for thinking that the order Paul follows in verse 30 - calling, justification, glorification - is the order of sequence according to the divine arrangement. These reasons are not far to seek. There are so many intimations of order in this passage as a whole that we cannot but conclude that order of logical sequence is intended throughout.

1. In verse 28 there is the intimation of order in the expression, "called according to purpose." This means that purpose provides the pattern or plan according to which calling takes place. Therefore the purpose is prior to the calling, and, in this case, of course, eternally prior. The purpose is none other than that which is unfolded in verse 29 as consisting in foreknowledge and predestination. Hence we have a clear indication of order in verse 28.

2. We have the same in verse 29. It is not our interest now to expound the meaning of the word "foreknow" nor its relation to the word "predestinate." All that is necessary to note now is that there is progression of thought from foreknowledge to predestination. Here again we have an indication of order which will not allow us to reverse the elements involved.

3. In verses 29 and 30 we have a chain of events which find their spring in foreknowledge and their terminus in glorification. We cannot possibly reverse these two. There is not only priority and posteriority but a particular kind of such order, namely, foreknowledge as the ultimate fount and glorification as the ultimate end.

4. The same applies to both foreknowledge and predestination in reference to the three acts mentioned in verse 30. Foreknowledge and predestination are prior to calling, justification, and glorification, and eternally prior at that. Reversal is inconceivable.

5. Even within the acts mentioned in verse 30, acts which fall within the sphere of the application of redemption and which are therefore temporal as distinguished from those of God's eternal counsel mentioned in verse 29, we are bound to discover an order of priority. Glorification could not be prior to calling and justification; it must be posterior to both. Hence, whatever may be true as regards the order of calling and justification in relation to each other, glorification must be after both. The only question that remains, therefore, is whether calling is prior to justification or the reverse.

We shall have to conclude that, since there are so many indications of intended order in this passage as a whole, the order which Paul follows in reference to calling and justification must be intended as the order of logical arrangement and progression. It would violate every relevant consideration to think otherwise. Consequently we must infer that Romans 8:30 provides us with a broad outline of the order in the application of redemption and that that order is: calling, justification, glorification. So we have the answer to one question, which has not so far been determined, namely, that calling precedes justification in the order of the application of redemption. And we might not have thought so if we were to rely upon our own logical reasonings.

The next question we may discuss is the relation of faith to justification. There is difference of judgment on this question among orthodox theologians, some holding that justification is prior, others the reverse. It must be understood that what we are dealing with now is not at all God's eternal decree to justify. That certainly is prior to faith, and, if we were to call that "eternal justification" (a misuse of terms), then such would be prior to faith just as God's purpose is always prior to every phase of the application of redemption. Furthermore, if we use the term justification as the virtual synonym of reconciliation (as it may be in Romans 5:9), then again such justification is prior to faith just as the accomplishment of redemption is always prior to the application of it. But we are not now dealing with the eternal decree to justify nor with the basis of justification in the work once for all accomplished by Christ but with actual justification, which falls within the orbit of the application of redemption. With reference to such justification the Scripture undoubtedly states that we are justified by faith, from faith, through faith, and upon faith (see Rom. 1:17; 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:24; Phil. 3:9). It would surely seem impossible to avoid the conclusion that justification is upon the event of faith or through the instrumentality of faith. God justifies the ungodly who believe in Jesus, in a word, believers. And that is simply to say that faith is presupposed in justification, is the precondition of justification, not because we are justified on the ground of faith or for the reason that we are justified because of faith but only for the reason that faith is God's appointed instrument through which he dispenses this grace.

There is another reason why we should believe that faith is prior to justification. We found already that calling is prior to justification. And faith is connected with calling. It does not constitute calling. But it is the inevitable response of our heart and mind and will to the divine call. In this matter call and response coincide. For that reason we should expect that since calling is prior to justification so is faith. This inference is confirmed by the express statement that we are justified by faith.

We are now in a position to give the following, slightly enlarged outline of the order in the application of redemption - calling, faith, justification, glorification.

If we think in Scriptural terms it is not difficult to insert another step. It is that of regeneration. It, in turn, must be prior to faith. Much controversy turns on this question and into all the angles of that controversy we need not enter. Still further, it will not be possible in this chapter to give all the evidence establishing the priority of regeneration. A good deal of that evidence will be presented later. Suffice it at present to be reminded that as sinners we are dead in trespasses and sins. Faith is a whole-souled act of loving trust and self-commitment. Of that we are incapable until renewed by the Holy Spirit. It was to this our Lord testified when he said that no one could come unto him except it were given unto him of the Father and except the Father draw him (John 6:44, 65). And, again, we must remember John 3:3: "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Surely seeing the kingdom of God is the act of faith and, if so, such faith is impossible without regeneration. Hence regeneration must be prior to faith. We can affirm then on these grounds that the order is regeneration, faith, justification.

This does not settle the question as to the order in connection with calling and regeneration. Is regeneration prior to effectual calling or is the reverse the case? There are arguments which could be pleaded in favour of the priority of regeneration. No great issue would be at stake in adopting that order, that is to say, the order, regeneration, calling, faith, justification, glorification. There is, however, one weighty consideration (a consideration that will be developed later on), namely, that in the teaching of Scripture it is calling that is given distinct emphasis and prominence as that act of God whereby sinners are translated from darkness to light and ushered into the fellowship of Christ. This feature of New Testament teaching creates the distinct impression that salvation in actual possession takes its start from an efficacious summons on the part of God and that this summons, since it is God's summons, carries in its bosom all of the operative efficacy by which it is made effective. It is calling and not regeneration that possesses that character. Hence there is more to be said for the priority of calling.

If then we have the following elements and in the following order: calling, regeneration, faith, justification, and glorification, we have really settled all that is of basic importance to the question. The other steps can be readily filled in and put in their proper place. Repentance is the twin sister of faith - we cannot think of the one without the other, and so repentance would be conjoined with faith. Conversion is simply another name for repentance and faith conjoined and would therefore be inclosed in repentance and faith. Adoption would obviously come after justification - we could not think of one being adopted into the family of God without first of all being accepted by God and made an heir of eternal life. Sanctification is a process that begins, we might say, in regeneration, finds its basis in justification, and derives its energizing grace from the union with Christ which is effected in effectual calling. Being a continuous process rather than a momentary act like calling, regeneration, justification and adoption, it is proper that it should be placed after adoption in the order of application. Perseverance is the concomitant and complement of the sanctifying process and might conveniently be placed either before or after sanctification.

With all these considerations in view, the order in the application of redemption is found to be, calling, regeneration, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. When this order is carefully weighed we find that there is a logic which evinces and brings into clear focus the governing principle of salvation in all of its aspects, the grace of God in its sovereignty and efficacy. Salvation is of the Lord in its application as well as in its conception and accomplishment.

-----

Source: Redemption Accomplished and Applied, Part II, "Redemption Applied," which was first published in 1955.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You (or they) missed a very important thing in Romans 8:30. Predestination comes before the calling.

Now what does predestination entail?

The plan of God from the foundation of the world. Including who are elect and who Christ would atone for. Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 The atonement took place "outside of earthy time" as well as having been accomplished within earthy time; yet remained "once and for all" 1 Peter 3:18

Back of up to Romans 8:29. Those that are predestine; what are they predestine too? "conformed to the image of the Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren". We know that being "conformed to the image of the Son.." requires regeneration; so thus regeneration is part of being predestine.

Jesus is 'the first born among many brethren" because he is "the author and finisher of faith". Hebrews 12:12 Because he is the "author and finisher" thus regeneration has to take place before the calling. Which is exactly what Romans 8:30 says when it first mentions "predestination".

Now we know election took place "before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4 and "many are called but few are chosen". Matthew 20:16 They only respond because they are chosen. So both the "call" and the "chosen" are "predetermined".

Now the consequence of the atonement taking place in time; is the change in the post Pentecost relationship of the Holy Spirit to the believer. The "with" (OT) as opposed to "indwell" (NT). But as far as the totality of what redemption actually entails; all of that was done in eternity prior to creation ever having come into existence.

It may be hard for us to wrap our brains around how one singular event took place both in time and before time began. What makes the most sense to me as an explanation of that, is to see time and eternity like one sphere inside another. The outer sphere is eternity, the inner sphere is time. God, by nature of the entity that He is, is capable of interjecting Himself from eternity into time where ever and when ever He feels the need to do so.

This is how / why there are theophanies in the Old Testament. A theophany is God interjecting a physical presence of Self into time before the incarnation. We don't see theophanies today because of the incarnation.

And thus because the incarnation happened, the presence of the Son now has an eternal "physicality" and when He returns (in bodily form) it is the end of time.

The point of the 2nd coming is to return in glory. Matthew 25:31 A corrupt cosmos can not stand in the presence of God in His glory; thus why the 2nd coming initiates the destruction of this current cosmos. (Also how we know dispensationalism is a false eschatology.)

The new cosmos is necessary because the incarnation added a dimension to the Son's existence that was not of the glory that the Son had prior to the creation. This is why Jesus says in John 17:5 "glorify me with Your own glory that I had before the world was."

The incarnation gave God (the Son) a created aspect to His existence. Yet "God" (Spirit and Father) remain without bodies as the Son possesses. "God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

So thus because of predestination, the "order of salvation" begins (in time) with regeneration because redemption was predetermined in eternity.

 

[JM]

The calvinism chart

I am supralapsarian.

Ultra High Calvinism That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America

"GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM; this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it." - John Gill

 

[Elizabeth Daniels Jn316]

You (or they) missed a very important thing in Romans 8:30. Predestination comes before the calling.

Now what does predestination entail?

The plan of God from the foundation of the world. Including who are elect and who Christ would atone for. Jesus is the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 The atonement took place "outside of earthy time" as well as having been accomplished within earthy time; yet remained "once and for all" 1 Peter 3:18

Back of up to Romans 8:29. Those that are predestine; what are they predestine too? "conformed to the image of the Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren". We know that being "conformed to the image of the Son.." requires regeneration; so thus regeneration is part of being predestine.

Jesus is 'the first born among many brethren" because he is "the author and finisher of faith". Hebrews 12:12 Because he is the "author and finisher" thus regeneration has to take place before the calling. Which is exactly what Romans 8:30 says when it first mentions "predestination".

Now we know election took place "before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4 and "many are called but few are chosen". Matthew 20:16 They only respond because they are chosen. So both the "call" and the "chosen" are "predetermined".

Now the consequence of the atonement taking place in time; is the change in the post Pentecost relationship of the Holy Spirit to the believer. The "with" (OT) as opposed to "indwell" (NT). But as far as the totality of what redemption actually entails; all of that was done in eternity prior to creation ever having come into existence.

It may be hard for us to wrap our brains around how one singular event took place both in time and before time began. What makes the most sense to me as an explanation of that, is to see time and eternity like one sphere inside another. The outer sphere is eternity, the inner sphere is time. God, by nature of the entity that He is, is capable of interjecting Himself from eternity into time where ever and when ever He feels the need to do so.

This is how / why there are theophanies in the Old Testament. A theophany is God interjecting a physical presence of Self into time before the incarnation. We don't see theophanies today because of the incarnation.

And thus because the incarnation happened, the presence of the Son now has an eternal "physicality" and when He returns (in bodily form) it is the end of time.

The point of the 2nd coming is to return in glory. Matthew 25:31 A corrupt cosmos can not stand in the presence of God in His glory; thus why the 2nd coming initiates the destruction of this current cosmos. (Also how we know dispensationalism is a false eschatology.)

The new cosmos is necessary because the incarnation added a dimension to the Son's existence that was not of the glory that the Son had prior to the creation. This is why Jesus says in John 17:5 "glorify me with Your own glory that I had before the world was."

The incarnation gave God (the Son) a created aspect to His existence. Yet "God" (Spirit and Father) remain without bodies as the Son possesses. "God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

So thus because of predestination, the "order of salvation" begins (in time) with regeneration because redemption was predetermined in eternity.

Thanks for your reply. Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but Prof. John Murray did discuss predestination in #1-#4 above. And yes, I believe predestination precedes the calling. I do differ on the view regarding regeneration or the new birth, though. I think regeneration precedes conversion (i.e., exercising the gifts of faith and repentance), but follows the effectual call.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I think regeneration precedes conversion (i.e., exercising the gifts of faith and repentance), but follows the effectual call.

I agree obviously that regeneration precedes conversion; but what makes the call effectual to begin with? "Many are called but few are chosen". There's a lot of people who respond to the call; but their response is ineffectual because they aren't really regenerated.

Unless you wanted to include the call as part of being predestine; which would mean they were called before the foundation of the world.

 

[hedrick]

McGrath's book "Iusticia Dei" is a highly influential work on the history of justification. He thinks Calvin's order is (making his diagram vertical so I can type it, and translating into English)

• election
• incorporation into Christ (Calvin's term is unio mystica)
• justification and sanctification in parallel. (Actually, in the Institutes, the term "Christian life" seems to be used most of the time where sanctification might be expected.)
• glorification

 

[Rescued One]

I like this thread!

 

[Gup20]

calling, regeneration, faith and repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification.

You have a really good and thorough post. You are to be commended for your attention to detail. I would, however, disagree. I think the order is: preaching (calling), hearing, believing (repenting), adoption, justification, regeneration (indwelling of the Holy Spirit), sanctification, perseverance, glorification.

I think the most important misstep in this order is having to do with adoption. The first, and primary example of faith leading to justification and salvation through grace is Abraham. This is the quintessential epitome of faith and salvation in Paul's epistles. In fact, Abraham is definitionally the "Father of all who believe."

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB20] 6 Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB20] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.
​

So we see here that God himself preaches the gospel of Christ to Abraham (Galatians 3:16), and Abraham believes the gospel, God credits him with righteousness. When we have the same faith in the same gospel that Abraham had, we become qualified as his descendants, and heirs of the Abrahamic covenant of faith. The Law did not exist in Abraham's day - it would be 430 years after the Abrahamic covenant was ratified that the Law would be given. Additionally, the Holy Spirit did not yet indwell believers, as the Holy Spirit was PROMISED to Abraham, but never given. However, Abraham was credited with righteousness (justification) for his faith in the gospel. That righteousness then was promised as an inheritance to all of Abraham's descendants - those who qualified as descendants by having the same faith in the gospel that he had.

Finally, we may glance at one passage in Paul, Ephesians 1:13: "In whom ye also, having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." The sealing with the Holy Spirit is that which follows upon the hearing of the word of truth and believing. Hearing and believing are therefore prior in order and cannot be made to follow the sealing of the Spirit.

Lets compare and contrast this with our quintessential example of salvation through faith in the gospel, Abraham.

[Rom 4:9-14 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified;​

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 2:29 NASB20] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.​

So circumcision - be it of the heart or of the flesh - is representative of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or regeneration as it pertains to the ordo salutis. This comes AFTER one has already been made righteous (justification) for it is written that Abraham was made righteous while uncircumcised.
The book of Acts confirms this as well.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
​

A good deal of that evidence will be presented later. Suffice it at present to be reminded that as sinners we are dead in trespasses and sins. Faith is a whole-souled act of loving trust and self-commitment. Of that we are incapable until renewed by the Holy Spirit. It was to this our Lord testified when he said that no one could come unto him except it were given unto him of the Father and except the Father draw him (John 6:44, 65). And, again, we must remember John 3:3: "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Surely seeing the kingdom of God is the act of faith and, if so, such faith is impossible without regeneration. Hence regeneration must be prior to faith. We can affirm then on these grounds that the order is regeneration, faith, justification.

You commit the error that nearly ALL who quote John 6:44 and 65 do... you omit John 6:64:

[Jhn 6:44, 64-65 NASB20] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. ... 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

So Jesus knew from the foundation of the world who would not believe, and BECAUSE of that faith, he said they could not come unless it was granted by the Father... so here we see a cause and effect relationship being established - they cannot come to the Father BECAUSE they do not believe, not the other way around. The passage does not say "for this reason I told you who they were that did not believe" ... therefore the cause is belief and the effect is the drawing. So the REASON they cannot come is BECAUSE they do not believe.

Finally, I was surprised that you did not have Romans 10 in your post. I see that passage as one of the premiere passages for the order of operations in salvation.

[Rom 10:13-17 NASB20] 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

So the order here is sending, preaching, hearing, faith. Note it talks about the "good news" or the gospel being what is preached. This harkens back the fact that it was God who first preached the gospel to Abraham.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Awesome read... Murray kills it and answers the questions like no other.

"“Christ did not come to put men in a redeemable position but to reedem to himself a people. We have the same result when we properly analyse the meaning of expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation. Christ did not come to make sins expiable. He came to expiate sins — “when he made purification of sins, he sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3). Christ did not come to make God reconcilable. He reconciled us to God by his own blood.”"

Redemption Accomplished and Applied

 

[Dan Perez]

Good Day,

Awesome read... Murray kills it and answers the questions like no other.

"“Christ did not come to put men in a redeemable position but to reedem to himself a people. We have the same result when we properly analyse the meaning of expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation. Christ did not come to make sins expiable. He came to expiate sins — “when he made purification of sins, he sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high” (Heb. 1:3). Christ did not come to make God reconcilable. He reconciled us to God by his own blood.”"

Redemption Accomplished and Applied

Here is why I believe anyone is SAVED BY GRACE .

In Acts 9:3 a light strikes Paul down and in verse 4 , Paul hears a voice says , Saul , Saul , why are you persecuting ME .

Then Paul says , verse 5 , Who are you LORD / KYRIOS .

Then in verse 6 Paul , he said LORD / MASTER , what do you wish me to do ?


That word LORD / MASTER is very important .


Rom 10:9 reads , that IF you should CONFESS with your mouth the LORD JESUS ( NOTICE THE WORD LORD ) and should believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead , you will be saved .


Know turn to 1 Cor 12:3 , which reads , Therefore , I make known to you that no one SPEAKING by God's Spirit says Jesus is accursed , and no one is ABLE to say LORD / KYRIOS , EXCEPT by the HOLY SPIRIT .


So Paul called Jesus LORD / MASTER and is saved .


In 1 Tim 1:16 says , That in me FIRST / PROTOS , Christ Jesus might show show forth all long suffering for a PATTERN of the Ones COMMING to believe on Him unto EVERLASTING LIFE .

I believe that this is the only way that Christ saves people today .


dan p

 

[Gup20]

Here is why I believe anyone is SAVED BY GRACE .

In Acts 9:3 a light strikes Paul down and in verse 4 , Paul hears a voice says , Saul , Saul , why are you persecuting ME .

Then Paul says , verse 5 , Who are you LORD / KYRIOS .

Then in verse 6 Paul , he said LORD / MASTER , what do you wish me to do ?


That word LORD / MASTER is very important .


Rom 10:9 reads , that IF you should CONFESS with your mouth the LORD JESUS ( NOTICE THE WORD LORD ) and should believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead , you will be saved .


Know turn to 1 Cor 12:3 , which reads , Therefore , I make known to you that no one SPEAKING by God's Spirit says Jesus is accursed , and no one is ABLE to say LORD / KYRIOS , EXCEPT by the HOLY SPIRIT .


So Paul called Jesus LORD / MASTER and is saved .


In 1 Tim 1:16 says , That in me FIRST / PROTOS , Christ Jesus might show show forth all long suffering for a PATTERN of the Ones COMMING to believe on Him unto EVERLASTING LIFE .

I believe that this is the only way that Christ saves people today .


dan p

Why faith? How does that lead to salvation? Why faith & not works?

 

[Rescued One]

Why faith? How does that lead to salvation? Why faith & not works?

Faith is given by God who saves us and makes us new creatures so that we do the works He wants us to do.

 

[Gup20]

Faith is given by God who saves us and makes us new creatures so that we do the works He wants us to do.

But why faith and not Gold, Silver, works, etc? Why is faith the thing that qualifies us for salvation and not something else?

[Gal 3:6-9, 14, 18, 26, 29 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Faith is the qualifier because that is part of the promise/oath/covenant that God made with Abraham. That promise (the Abrahamic covenant) is how we are given or obtain the Holy Spirit. When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and are heirs according to the promise of the Spirit. This is why Romans 8 says we are "fellow heirs" with Christ.

 

[The Righterzpen]

But why faith and not Gold, Silver, works, etc? Why is faith the thing that qualifies us for salvation and not something else?

[Gal 3:6-9, 14, 18, 26, 29 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Faith is the qualifier because that is part of the promise/oath/covenant that God made with Abraham. That promise (the Abrahamic covenant) is how we are given or obtain the Holy Spirit. When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and are heirs according to the promise of the Spirit. This is why Romans 8 says we are "fellow heirs" with Christ.

Where did Abraham get that faith from though?

In the vision where Abraham prepares this sacrifice. Abraham is but a witness to God's action of creating this covenant. The "covenant" isn't between Abraham and God. The agreement is among the members of the Godhead as to what are the requirements of this covenant, that need to be fulfilled in order to grant Abraham faith.

Faith is not something Abraham naturally possessed because he, as part of Adam's progeny was affected by both the fall, as well as his own sin. He was "dead in trespass and sin." Dead men don't have faith.

[Jhn 6:44, 64-65 NASB20] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. ... 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

You are ignoring here what John 6:44 says in exchange for what you assert John 6:65 says. "No man can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father". Verse 64 says some lack faith; well where does faith come from. It's not generated from within the individual. God did not "see down the corridors of time who would believe" and then decide to save them because "they had faith". No, God is actually the entity that created that faith in them.

FAITH is a gift from God -
1 Samual 26:23
Romans 12:3
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 3:12
Philippians 3:9
Colossians 2:12
Jude 3,
1 Thessalonians 1:3
(faith is a work is actually defined as such in) 2 Thessalonians 1:11

 

[Gup20]

Where did Abraham get that faith from though?

In the vision where Abraham prepares this sacrifice. Abraham is but a witness to God's action of creating this covenant. The "covenant" isn't between Abraham and God. The agreement is among the members of the Godhead as to what are the requirements of this covenant are, that need to be fulfilled in order to grant Abraham faith.

Faith is not something Abraham naturally possessed because he, as part of Adam's progeny was affected by both the fall, as well as his own sin. He was "dead in trespass and sin." Dead men don't have faith.

You are ignoring here what John 6:44 says in exchange for what you assert John 6:65 says. "No man can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father". Verse 64 says some lack faith; well where does faith come from. It's not generated from within the individual. God did not "see down the corridors of time who would believe" and then decide to save them because "they had faith". No, God is actually the entity that created that faith in them.

FAITH is a gift from God -
1 Samual 26:23
Romans 12:3
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 3:12
Philippians 3:9
Colossians 2:12
Jude 3,
1 Thessalonians 1:3
(faith is a work is actually defined as such in) 2 Thessalonians 1:11

There is a type of faith which is for salvation (being made righteous and our sins forgiven) and another type which is for sanctification (growing closer to God and less like the world). The faith for sanctification is a gift, however, the faith for salvation is generated by a human being and is "mere belief."

[1Co 12:7-11, 29-30 NASB95] 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. ... 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not [workers of] miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?​

Consider, that in the traditional Calvinist or Reformed view, the faith for salvation is given by God via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, we see from 1Co 12 that not all people are given the same gifts. Some get faith, yet some get prophecy, tongues, or wisdom. This implies that not all are given the gift of faith, indeed, in verses 29-30 we see that to be the case. This is because when faith is a gift, it is - as all of these gifts - for sanctification, and the edification of the body of Christ, not for salvation.

The Scripture is absolutely explicit that the faith for salvation comes BEFORE one is indwelled/regenerated/born again by the Holy Spirit.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB95] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

You need to look at John 6:44 and 64-65 more closely.

[Jhn 6:64-65 NASB95] 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

So Jesus says he knew from the beginning (the foundation of the world) who would believe, and FOR THAT REASON (they did not believe) they were not allowed to come to the Father. This creates a cause and effect relationship between faith and drawing where FAITH is the cause, and drawing (or allowing to come) is the effect -- not the other way around. In other words - why couldn't they come to the father? Because they did not believe. It does NOT say "Jesus knew from the begging who would be drawn to the father and he was saying 'for this reason I said to you that they believed.' " That would make the reason for the faith the drawing of the Spirit. But it doesn't say it that way.

Finally, we know that the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost after Jesus' ascension into heaven. We also know that the Bible never says that Abraham was filled with the Holy Spirit. Neither did the Holy Spirit come upon him. So Abraham's faith was an unregenerate faith. Now Galatians 3 and Romans 4 say that, when we have the same unregenerate faith that Abraham had in the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are considered his children or descendants and are heirs according to the Promise of the Spirit though faith. Circumcision of the flesh was given to Abraham as a placeholder to be replaced by circumcision of the heart (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Moses, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah all prophesied of the day when circumcision of the heart (the indwelling/regeneration of the Holy Spirit) would come. Romans 4 and Ephesians 1:13-14 both call "circumcision" the "seal" of the righteousness which came through faith. In Abraham's day, it was physical circumcision, but now that the Holy Spirit has come that is replaced by Circumcision of the heart or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Regardless, however, circumcision always comes after faith.

[Deu 30:6 NASB95] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

​

[Eze 36:26 NASB95] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

​

[Jer 31:33 NASB95] 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​

​

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB95] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

​

[Rom 4:9-14, 16-17 NASB95] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

So when we have the same uncircumcised (unregenerate) faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had (Gal 3:8, 16), we are sons of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. Therefore, our faith doesn't qualify us for righteousness as both Calvin and Arminius wrongly presupposed, but rather our faith qualifies us as descendants - for Human adoption. Once adopted, we qualify as descendants and heirs of the righteousness promised by God to Abraham and his seed. Our degeneracy doesn't matter for human adoption. We can be adopted by father Abraham all day long whether we are sinners or not. In fact, I don't believe we can be adopted as Abraham's heirs if we don't have the same, unregenerate faith he had. The Holy Spirit comes AFTER we have believed and is a seal of the righteousness which we have inherited because of faith, as a first installment of the greater inheritance yet to come (the resurrection).

 

[The Righterzpen]

However, we see from 1Co 12 that not all people are given the same gifts. Some get faith,

Go into the Greek and look really carefully at that word "another" as related to "given faith". It's not "another" as in "another person" but as in "others' numbered among"; meaning that all those "another" surrounding this "another" all have been given faith.

This jives with Romans 12:3

The "another" ("faith") is Strong's #2087 but all the other "another"(s) are Strong's #243

8 For to (the) one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; (I'm leaning toward the first part of this verse being a reference to Christ; because he is called "wisdom" in other places in Scripture. As well as this is also stated as "to one" and not just "but another".) but another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 But the whole of the number, faith by the same Spirit; but another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 But another the working of miracles; but another prophecy; but another discerning of spirits; but another divers kinds of tongues; but another the interpretation of tongues:

The Scripture is absolutely explicit that the faith for salvation comes BEFORE one is indwelled/regenerated/born again by the Holy Spirit.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[Act 11:16-17 NASB95] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

The word "after" in both of these passages isn't actually in the Greek.

Heres the word for word literal English translation:

Ephesians 1:13
In Whom also you having heard the Word, the truth, the gospel of the salvation of you, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Spirit, the of promise, the Holy.

Now "having heard" and "having believed" is aorist participle active; but "were sealed" is aorist indicative passive. Meaning the sealing had happened prior to the "hearing" and "believing".

Acts 11:17
If then the same gift has given (aorist indicative active) to them; the God, as also to us, having believed (Aorist participle active) on the Lord Jesus Christ; I how was (imperfect indicative middle) able to forbid (aorist infinitive active) the God.

Note the order of words in this verse. It's the same idea as in Ephesians; but the leading verb is active voice and the subject of that verb is God. (The "gift given".) What does that produce? It produces "having believed" (active faith).

Now, interestingly, note the last phrase in this verse: "I, how, was able to forbid God?" Those verbs are active also. He's presenting a rhetorical circumstance. He was not able of his own (active) will to resist God.

So Jesus says he knew from the beginning (the foundation of the world) who would believe, and FOR THAT REASON (they did not believe) they were not allowed to come to the Father. This creates a cause and effect relationship between faith and drawing where FAITH is the cause, and drawing (or allowing to come) is the effect -- not the other way around. In other words - why couldn't they come to the father? Because they did not believe. It does NOT say "Jesus knew from the begging who would be drawn to the father and he was saying 'for this reason I said to you that they believed.' " That would make the reason for the faith the drawing of the Spirit. But it doesn't say it that way.

Your assertion here makes God impotent to act against human willingness to cooperate. If God is unable to enact a dead sinner to faith; He's not omnipotent.

Finally, we know that the Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost after Jesus' ascension into heaven. We also know that the Bible never says that Abraham was filled with the Holy Spirit.

The lack of Holy Spirit indwelling faith does not negate that Christ still atoned for Abraham's sin. Jesus was the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8)

Neither did the Holy Spirit come upon him. So Abraham's faith was an unregenerate faith.

You assert this claim but you have no evidence that this is the case.

Back in Genesis 1:2, it says the Spirit of God "moved" on the face of the waters. What that verse literally means is that the entrance of the Spirit of God into the material cosmos actually created water. Water is the foundational element of all life. Everything that possesses the "breath of life" is made up of water. This is why it talks about being born of "water and Spirit". So right here we have an example of the Spirit of God moving in this world. Life doesn't exist without God giving the "breath of life". So most certainly yes; the Spirit acted upon Abraham; though I would agree, it is true he was not "indwelt".

Now the verses (Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23) that say "Abraham believed God..." That word "believe" is derived off the same Greek word "faith". He didn't have "indwelling faith" but he had faith. Prior to any of this; God had called Abraham out of Ur of Chaldees. (Genesis 15:7) So thus again; God's action predated faith.

Circumcision of the flesh was given to Abraham as a placeholder to be replaced by circumcision of the heart (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Moses, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah all prophesied of the day when circumcision of the heart (the indwelling/regeneration of the Holy Spirit) would come.

Totally agree that circumcision of the heart is at least in part, what this is pointing too.

But the circumcision of the flesh was a component of the law. And by the deeds of the law is no flesh justified.

Now Galatians 3:16 states that Christ is the seed of Abraham. Both Abraham and Christ were circumcised in the flesh. The "seed of Abraham" was the Messiah. "With out the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Circumcision pointed to the fact that the plan of God was that the blood of the seed would be shed. Christ never produced any children in the flesh because he talks about him (being the seed) that has to go into the earth.

Which brings me to the next point: What was the reason for the crucifixion? (To atone for sin.) There is no faith without atonement. This is why Jesus was "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". That reality (the atonement having taken place both outside of and within time) is what made it possible for people like Abraham to have faith. The same goes for Abel, Noah, Enoch, Job. All of these people lived before Abraham. They lived before the "circumcision covenant". Yet they were also all atoned for too. They weren't "adopted as the progeny of Abraham" because they (at least we know Noah was) were his ancestors.

So.... they didn't have "Abrahamic faith" yet they still had faith.

So back to Jesus. He's the seed that goes into the ground. Doesn't have any biological children of his own. He made the choice to be a eunuch "to reign in the Kingdom of God". Go back to what Christ's purpose was; (the shedding of blood for the remission of sin).

Now back to Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Who's doing the justifying? (God) He does this "through faith"; but what faith is that? It's not the faith the heathen conger up; It springs from the fact that Christ fulfilled the atonement.

Compare this to:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Gup20]

Go into the Greek and look really carefully at that word "another" as related to "given faith". It's not "another" as in "another person" but as in "others' numbered among"; meaning that all those "another" surrounding this "another" all have been given faith.

This jives with Romans 12:3

The "another" ("faith") is Strong's #2087 but all the other "another"(s) are Strong's #243

8 For to (the) one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; (I'm leaning toward the first part of this verse being a reference to Christ; because he is called "wisdom" in other places in Scripture. As well as this is also stated as "to one" and not just "but another".) but another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 But the whole of the number, faith by the same Spirit; but another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 But another the working of miracles; but another prophecy; but another discerning of spirits; but another divers kinds of tongues; but another the interpretation of tongues:

You failed to deal with the salient point which was that this passage had to do with sanctification and not salvific faith.

The word "after" in both of these passages isn't actually in the Greek.

Heres the word for word literal English translation:

Ephesians 1:13
In Whom also you having heard the Word, the truth, the gospel of the salvation of you, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Spirit, the of promise, the Holy.

Now "having heard" and "having believed" is aorist participle active; but "were sealed" is aorist indicative passive. Meaning the sealing had happened prior to the "hearing" and "believing".

Acts 11:17
If then the same gift has given (aorist indicative active) to them; the God, as also to us, having believed (Aorist participle active) on the Lord Jesus Christ; I how was (imperfect indicative middle) able to forbid (aorist infinitive active) the God.

Note the order of words in this verse. It's the same idea as in Ephesians; but the leading verb is active voice and the subject of that verb is God. (The "gift given".) What does that produce? It produces "having believed" (active faith).

Now, interestingly, note the last phrase in this verse: "I, how, was able to forbid God?" Those verbs are active also. He's presenting a rhetorical circumstance. He was not able of his own (active) will to resist God.

The vast majority of Bible scholars and translators disagree with you. The active voice (heard the gospel and believed the gospel) indicates the subject is the one doing the action whereas the passive voice (you were sealed) indicates and outside force doing the action. The reason most translators structure it this way is to convey that the hearing and the faith come from you (active) whereas the sealing comes from God (passive).

Your assertion here makes God impotent to act against human willingness to cooperate. If God is unable to enact a dead sinner to faith; He's not omnipotent.

Whether the faith is from God or from the man, the regeneration to life is accomplished by God. Neither situation makes God impotent. The real question - the one Calvin himself couldn't answer - is why a superior God would allow an inferior man to make the choice rather than make it for him. Calvin, as a ruthless ruler who ruled his land by terror and tyranny, imagined God in his own image. Calvin believed (as did Arminius) that the presence or absence of faith qualified a person directly for righteousness. He viewed a faith generated from a depraved man impossibly overcoming or superseding the will of God. However, both Calvin and Arminius were wrong in the presupposition that faith and righteousness had a direct relationship. Viewed correctly in the light of scripture, they have an indirect relationship. Faith qualifies us for human adoption into the group "the descendants of Abraham" and the descendants of Abraham inherit righteousness because of God's promise to Abraham and his seed. Therefore, righteousness is an indirect result of faith, not a direct one. This is paramount because then it is not the faith of the individual which motivates or "causes" God to make them righteous, but rather it is God's promise and the fact that God cannot lie which motivates Him to make Abraham's descendants qualified as "chosen" or "elect."

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

​

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.​

No one questions that the Jews were God's chosen people as a group, not because God gave each of them individually faith, but because they were part of the group "the descendants of Abraham." Christians also qualify for righteousness by joining the chosen group, but we now understand that group has open enrollment based on the faith generated by each individual man prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You assert this claim but you have no evidence that this is the case.

Back in Genesis 1:2, it says the Spirit of God "moved" on the face of the waters. What that verse literally means is that the entrance of the Spirit of God into the material cosmos actually created water. Water is the foundational element of all life. Everything that possesses the "breath of life" is made up of water. This is why it talks about being born of "water and Spirit". So right here we have an example of the Spirit of God moving in this world. Life doesn't exist without God giving the "breath of life". So most certainly yes; the Spirit acted upon Abraham; though I would agree, it is true he was not "indwelt".

Now the verses (Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23) that say "Abraham believed God..." That word "believe" is derived off the same Greek word "faith". He didn't have "indwelling faith" but he had faith. Prior to any of this; God had called Abraham out of Ur of Chaldees. (Genesis 15:7) So thus again; God's action predated faith.

I think you realize that to be a tenuous argument at best and leads to the notion that all human beings are saved because the Holy Spirit moved upon the water and we all have water. I think you can agree that God draws a distinction between those who are made righteous and those who are not. As part of the Trinity, yes, the Holy Spirit would have existed at the foundation of the world, but that's not the question. The question is whether Abraham's faith came from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or from himself. Yes, we agree that Abraham was never indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

I believe the notion of "free will" to be erroneous. Rather, I believe God gave man a specific binary choice - life or death.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The Blessing and The Curse, Life or Death... this choice offered 3 times is in the context of "circumcision of the heart." Indeed Paul describes this choice as the choice for regarding the faith. It is the choice whether or not to believe the Gospel. Notice Moses says this choice is not too difficult for man to make, and it is not made in heaven. We do not need heaven (the Holy Spirit) to come down and make us hear the gospel so that we can believe it and obey it.

[Rom 10:5-10 NASB95] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

Which brings me to the next point: What was the reason for the crucifixion? (To atone for sin.) There is no faith without atonement. This is why Jesus was "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". That reality (the atonement having taken place both outside of and within time) is what made it possible for people like Abraham to have faith. The same goes for Abel, Noah, Enoch, Job. All of these people lived before Abraham. They lived before the "circumcision covenant". Yet they were also all atoned for too. They weren't "adopted as the progeny of Abraham" because they (at least we know Noah was) were his ancestors.

So what gives a person the "power" to have faith? Well... what gives me the power to believe anything? Someone tells me about it and I either believe it or I do not. But the hearing about it gives me the opportunity or power to believe it. So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[Rom 1:16 NASB95] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​

Hearing the gospel gives one the power to believe the gospel, just as hearing anything gives one the power to believe anything.

So we come to Gal 3:8:

Now back to Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Notice what I've highlighted in Red. What enabled Abraham to have faith is God preached the gospel to him. Abraham's faith was an unregenerate faith and didn't require the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... just as is our faith in the gospel. The first time the gospel was preached was to Adam when God cursed him and told him the Seed of the woman would bruise the serpents head and the seed of the serpent would bruise his heel. That "seed of the woman" was Jesus.... so God was literally telling Adam there was Good News and He was talking about Jesus.

Who's doing the justifying? (God) He does this "through faith"; but what faith is that? It's not the faith the heathen conger up; It springs from the fact that Christ fulfilled the atonement.

I agree 100% that God is doing the justifying... but because of His promise, not because of our faith. Our faith just qualifies us as member of the chosen group to whom the promise was made. When we have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had, we are considered the sons of Abraham.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

There is that word "blessed" again (remember the choice in Deuteronomy 30).

[Gal 3:14 NASB95] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

 

[The Righterzpen]

You failed to deal with the salient point which was that this passage had to do with sanctification and not salvific faith.

LOL Your original assertion was that 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 meant that some people were given faith and some weren't. Faith has to do with salvation not sanctification. If "by grace you are saved through faith...." (Ephesians 2:8) That's salvation, not sanctification.

Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1: Faith is necessary for redemption.

Everyone who is redeemed is granted faith by God. That's what 1 Corinthians 12:9 is asserting. Romans 12:3 backs that up.

The vast majority of Bible scholars and translators disagree with you. The active voice (heard the gospel and believed the gospel) indicates the subject is the one doing the action

"You looked out the window while you were driven to the store by your mother." Who is doing the driving in this sentence; (though you are the subject of the sentence)?

whereas the passive voice (you were sealed) indicates and outside force doing the action.

Exactly! Your mother is doing the driving; and the fact that you got to the store is passive upon her action of driving. (I.E. "driving" is "passive voice" though the only thing you are "actively" doing is looking out the window.)

"Having heard" and "having believed" is because the Holy Spirit had "sealed" unto redemption!

Those who are elect are predestine to that election from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-14, Hebrews 4:3) Because Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8) And those who's names are in the Book of Life were there from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 17:8)

So thus since all of this is established before the individual ever existed; than it can not be on account of "their faith"; because "their faith" did not exist before the foundation of the world..

Whether the faith is from God or from the man, the regeneration to life is accomplished by God.

You are aware that you just contradicted yourself; right?

If regeneration is accomplished by God; so is faith, because faith is part of regeneration.

The real question - the one Calvin himself couldn't answer - is why a superior God would allow an inferior man to make the choice rather than make it for him. Calvin, as a ruthless ruler who ruled his land by terror and tyranny, imagined God in his own image. Calvin believed (as did Arminius) that the presence or absence of faith qualified a person directly for righteousness. He viewed a faith generated from a depraved man impossibly overcoming or superseding the will of God.

Another contradictory statement; as Calvin obviously concluded that the totally depraved natural man could not produce faith. (Where do you suppose the conceptualization of TULIP would come from; if Calvin had determined that man had the ability to generate faith of his own accord?)

However, both Calvin and Arminius were wrong in the presupposition that faith and righteousness had a direct relationship. Viewed correctly in the light of scripture, they have an indirect relationship.

Except... "Without faith it is impossible to please Him..." Hebrews 11:6

Faith qualifies us for human adoption into the group "the descendants of Abraham" and the descendants of Abraham inherit righteousness because of God's promise to Abraham and his seed.

"... blood of righteous Abel.." Matthew 23:35
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord" Genesis 6:8
"Have you considered my servant Job?" Job 1:8
"Enoch walked with God and was not; for God took him..." Genesis 5:24

Well, there goes your theory because all these people lived before Abraham!

Besides the fact God's promise was to Abraham's seed (singular) "He said not: and to seeds as in many but as to one. And thy seed which is Christ." Galatians 3:16

No one questions that the Jews were God's chosen people as a group, not because God gave each of them individually faith, but because they were part of the group "the descendants of Abraham."

Who perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief! Hebrews 3:15-19

I think you realize that to be a tenuous argument at best and leads to the notion that all human beings are saved because the Holy Spirit moved upon the water and we all have water.

Again, you didn't read what I wrote. I never said all human beings are saved (water or not)! What I said was that because we know the Holy Spirit moved upon the water; it's erroneous to conclude that He could not have moved on Abraham.

The question is whether Abraham's faith came from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or from himself.

You are the only one who's confused about this. Abraham's faith came from God (despite not being indwelt by the Holy Spirit). This is because Abraham was one of the elect and Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You seem to have this need to believe that you're.... some how.. Jewish? Are you involved in this Hebrew roots movement thing? You seem to want to be included in this "number of Abraham's descendants".

You are aware that you are in a "faith groups" "Semper Reformada" room arguing against the basic truth that God is the author and finisher of faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

Shall I go on and continue to explain to you where you're in error on all the rest of these verses?

 

[Gup20]

So why are you on the Semper Reformada forum; if you are only here to argue against this theological position? Are you not aware of the forum rules? Do you understand you could be reported for this?

And yes; I'm the one who reported you for this!

An excellent rescue device for your arguments. Yes, I post in many of the forums on this site, and this topic was from a while back and didn't notice this was in a non-debate thread. I will discontinue debating.

You don't have redemption. The Christ you believe in won't save you.

Yikes... questioning someone's salvation is probably not within the rules. I can only guess that the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing with not being able to counter my arguments has resulted in this temporary lapse of judgment. I will not hold it against you.

My apologies... I should have been more cognizant that this was your safe space. I will withdraw from the discussion.

 

[The Righterzpen]

An excellent rescue device for your arguments. Yes, I post in many of the forums on this site, and this topic was from a while back and didn't notice this was in a non-debate thread. I will discontinue debating.


Yikes... questioning someone's salvation is probably not within the rules. I can only guess that the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing with not being able to counter my arguments has resulted in this temporary lapse of judgment. I will not hold it against you.

My apologies... I should have been more cognizant that this was your safe space. I will withdraw from the discussion.

Jude 1:9