Is there a reason Paul leaves us with much freedom?

[godenver1]

Is Romans 14 a foreshadow of Christian denominationalism?

Did the churches at Corinth, Rome and Galatia have the same opinion on doctrinal matters, such as baptism/communion?

 

[maco]

Is Romans 14 a foreshadow of Christian denominationalism?

Did the churches at Corinth, Rome and Galatia have the same opinion on doctrinal matters, such as baptism/communion?

Romans 14 speaks of not arguing over doubtful things which are things that are not specifically commanded by God.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

We have freedom in areas that are not clearly commanded by God such as fasting on a particular day, eating only vegetables, abstaining from drinking fermented wine. These things are not commandments of God.

The word, unclean, in Romans 14:14 is the word, koinos.

Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

This word, koinos, is translated to the word, common, and is not referring to animals that unclean by their very created nature such as a pig, but rather, clean things that became unclean because of the conscience. The word used for unclean animals, because of their very nature, is the word, akathartos. Peter uses both, koinos and akathartos, in the same sentence.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

Romans 14 is speaking of things that are not necessarily wrong in God's eyes but they may be wrong to someone who is weak in the faith. We find this in the use of fermented wine. There are some people who believe drinking a beer is sinful but God says it's not. Those who believe it is sinful are weak in their understanding of this so it causes them to stumble. To their conscience, beer would be unclean/common/koinos until they are taught otherwise. A pig would always be, akathartos and the seventh day is always special to God.

 

[Steeno7]

Is Romans 14 a foreshadow of Christian denominationalism?

Romans 14 is about how the mature in Christ are to handle the weaker, immature in Christ. I do not see it as foreshadowing denominationalism. Although, immaturity is built into many denominations theology, thereby making any progression to maturity more difficult. In that sense, Romans 14 is applicable towards those denominations pretty much as a whole.

 

[from scratch]

Is Romans 14 a foreshadow of Christian denominationalism?

Did the churches at Corinth, Rome and Galatia have the same opinion on doctrinal matters, such as baptism/communion?

The seahwaks showed em good! And I like the broncos.

Yeah he only wanted to split the church and cause division. His other purposes probably included hate, anger and bitterness.

 

[from scratch]

Romans 14 speaks of not arguing over doubtful things which are things that are not specifically commanded by God.

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

We have freedom in areas that are not clearly commanded by God such as fasting on a particular day, eating only vegetables, abstaining from drinking fermented wine. These things are not commandments of God.

The word, unclean, in Romans 14:14 is the word, koinos.

Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

This word, koinos, is translated to the word, common, and is not referring to animals that unclean by their very created nature such as a pig, but rather, clean things that became unclean because of the conscience. The word used for unclean animals, because of their very nature, is the word, akathartos. Peter uses both, koinos and akathartos, in the same sentence.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

Romans 14 is speaking of things that are not necessarily wrong in God's eyes but they may be wrong to someone who is weak in the faith. We find this in the use of fermented wine. There are some people who believe drinking a beer is sinful but God says it's not. Those who believe it is sinful are weak in their understanding of this so it causes them to stumble. To their conscience, beer would be unclean/common/koinos until they are taught otherwise. A pig would always be, akathartos and the seventh day is always special to God.

So you wish to say Paul isn't including animals in Romans 14. Denial is nothing new to GT.

 

[timewerx]

For some reason, Romans 14:2 doesn't apply to me. In fact, it does the opposite to me!

Since I started avoiding pork, crustaceans, lamb, and beef, and cutting on my food intake last 2011, my immune system radically improved!

The improvement was nothing less than miraculous! I hardly get sick anymore! I only get the mildest symptoms of colds, cough, and flu and gets fully healed in not more than 3 hours without any medicines, nor remedies!

I belong to a "high risk group" if anyone is unfamiliar with that term, it means I belong to a group with a considerably higher risk of contracting diseases and infections. I especially frequent poor countries with tropical climates which tends to be infested with diseases due to unsanitary conditions, poor infrastructure, and the hot and humid climate.

So how come?? My "eat-anything" "stronger faith" counterparts, according to Romans 14:2 gets sick??

Real world results is the reason why I'm not a very big fan of Paul.

I'm a very big fan of Jesus on the other hand because all He said as understood in the right context, is on the dot in real life applications!

 

[Sophrosyne]

For some reason, Romans 14:2 doesn't apply to me. In fact, it does the opposite to me!

Since I started avoiding pork, crustaceans, lamb, and beef, and cutting on my food intake last 2011, my immune system radically improved!

The improvement was nothing less than miraculous! I hardly get sick anymore! I only get the mildest symptoms of colds, cough, and flu and gets fully healed in not more than 3 hours without any medicines, nor remedies!

I belong to a "high risk group" if anyone is unfamiliar with that term, it means I belong to a group with a considerably higher risk of contracting diseases and infections. I especially frequent poor countries with tropical climates which tends to be infested with diseases due to unsanitary conditions, poor infrastructure, and the hot and humid climate.

So how come?? My "eat-anything" "stronger faith" counterparts, according to Romans 14:2 gets sick??

Real world results is the reason why I'm not a very big fan of Paul.

I'm a very big fan of Jesus on the other hand because all He said as understood in the right context, is on the dot in real life applications!

Paul doesn't advocate people eating contaminated foods nor bad diets he just says that if you desire to eat pork that it isn't a sin to do so. In other words he isn't talking about freedom to eat anything with abandon he is talking about eating anything without being seen as "sinful" and condemned for doing so. A Jew wouldn't dare eat bacon under the Law but if he was visiting someone's house and they didn't know he was a Christian Jew and served him a meal with pork in it he could eat some and not feel wrong in doing so.

 

[Hentenza]

For some reason, Romans 14:2 doesn't apply to me. In fact, it does the opposite to me!

Since I started avoiding pork, crustaceans, lamb, and beef, and cutting on my food intake last 2011, my immune system radically improved!

The improvement was nothing less than miraculous! I hardly get sick anymore! I only get the mildest symptoms of colds, cough, and flu and gets fully healed in not more than 3 hours without any medicines, nor remedies!

I belong to a "high risk group" if anyone is unfamiliar with that term, it means I belong to a group with a considerably higher risk of contracting diseases and infections. I especially frequent poor countries with tropical climates which tends to be infested with diseases due to unsanitary conditions, poor infrastructure, and the hot and humid climate.

So how come?? My "eat-anything" "stronger faith" counterparts, according to Romans 14:2 gets sick??

Real world results is the reason why I'm not a very big fan of Paul.

I'm a very big fan of Jesus on the other hand because all He said as understood in the right context, is on the dot in real life applications!

YMMV. I do not have a particular diet nor do I get sick when I eat (unless I ate too much lol). Paul is stating the same as Jesus.

 

[maco]

Paul doesn't advocate people eating contaminated foods nor bad diets he just says that if you desire to eat pork that it isn't a sin to do so. In other words he isn't talking about freedom to eat anything with abandon he is talking about eating anything without being seen as "sinful" and condemned for doing so. A Jew wouldn't dare eat bacon under the Law but if he was visiting someone's house and they didn't know he was a Christian Jew and served him a meal with pork in it he could eat some and not feel wrong in doing so.

That's right. Unclean animals are still unclean because that's the way they were created. The difference is that it's now lawful to eat them but just because it's lawful does not mean they are clean or helpful.

 

[Nanopants]

But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” -Acts 10:14,15

 

[Sophrosyne]

That's right. Unclean animals are still unclean because that's the way they were created. The difference is that it's now lawful to eat them but just because it's lawful does not mean they are clean or helpful.

most "unclean" animals are just fine for consumption if they are properly handled and prepared and in moderation they are "helpful" as far as diet is considered.

 

[ForceofTime]

For some reason, Romans 14:2 doesn't apply to me. In fact, it does the opposite to me!

Since I started avoiding pork, crustaceans, lamb, and beef, and cutting on my food intake last 2011, my immune system radically improved!

The improvement was nothing less than miraculous! I hardly get sick anymore! I only get the mildest symptoms of colds, cough, and flu and gets fully healed in not more than 3 hours without any medicines, nor remedies!

I belong to a "high risk group" if anyone is unfamiliar with that term, it means I belong to a group with a considerably higher risk of contracting diseases and infections. I especially frequent poor countries with tropical climates which tends to be infested with diseases due to unsanitary conditions, poor infrastructure, and the hot and humid climate.

So how come?? My "eat-anything" "stronger faith" counterparts, according to Romans 14:2 gets sick??

Real world results is the reason why I'm not a very big fan of Paul.

I'm a very big fan of Jesus on the other hand because all He said as understood in the right context, is on the dot in real life applications!

How odd.

Paul's idea of real world results was significantly higher than this, especially pertaining to the word "miracle".

 

[from scratch]

For some reason, Romans 14:2 doesn't apply to me. In fact, it does the opposite to me!

Since I started avoiding pork, crustaceans, lamb, and beef, and cutting on my food intake last 2011, my immune system radically improved!

The improvement was nothing less than miraculous! I hardly get sick anymore! I only get the mildest symptoms of colds, cough, and flu and gets fully healed in not more than 3 hours without any medicines, nor remedies!

I belong to a "high risk group" if anyone is unfamiliar with that term, it means I belong to a group with a considerably higher risk of contracting diseases and infections. I especially frequent poor countries with tropical climates which tends to be infested with diseases due to unsanitary conditions, poor infrastructure, and the hot and humid climate.

So how come?? My "eat-anything" "stronger faith" counterparts, according to Romans 14:2 gets sick??

Real world results is the reason why I'm not a very big fan of Paul.

I'm a very big fan of Jesus on the other hand because all He said as understood in the right context, is on the dot in real life applications!

Beats me. I eat anything I want and can't remember the last time I was sick.

I was at a mall once and they wanted to poll me about aspirin. I ask what that was.

 

[Hentenza]

That's right. Unclean animals are still unclean because that's the way they were created. The difference is that it's now lawful to eat them but just because it's lawful does not mean they are clean or helpful.

Nothing wrong with unclean animals. Its that unclean lettuce that will kill you.

ETA: God created "uncleaned" animals during creation week and called all of His creation good. "Unclean" animals were not created uncleaned.

 

[timewerx]

Beats me. I eat anything I want and can't remember the last time I was sick.

I was at a mall once and they wanted to poll me about aspirin. I ask what that was.

If you have been like that all your life then it's possible that its in your genes. Living in USA is also not a good test of an exceptional immune system.

I've been sickly my whole life until I changed to a more Biblical diet, then my immune system became bulletproof in a manner of speaking.

Is that a lack of faith? Or am I actually showing more faith by trusting everything that God says is good? And indeed, it made me far better!

 

[maco]

Nothing wrong with unclean animals. Its that unclean lettuce that will kill you.

ETA: God created "uncleaned" animals during creation week and called all of His creation good. "Unclean" animals were not created uncleaned.

Just because God created something unclean does not mean it's not good, it's just not good to eat. I'm sure there were many things that couldn't be eaten.

 

[maco]

most "unclean" animals are just fine for consumption if they are properly handled and prepared and in moderation they are "helpful" as far as diet is considered.

So you reject what Paul says? He says they are not helpful.

 

[maco]

But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” -Acts 10:14,15

God never said the animals were clean nor did Peter believe God was saying the animals were clean. Listen to how Peter was trying to figure out what God meant.

Acts 10:17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate.

Peter had a hard time accepting Gentiles because he considered them to be unclean. God was telling Peter that Cornelius should not be called common or unclean.

Acts 10:27-29 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?”

The vision was not meant to teach Peter that unclean animals are now clean, but rather, Peter should not call a Gentile unclean or common. As a result of Peter's understanding of the vision he did not come to the conclusion that unclean animals are now clean. The fact that Peter had not eaten any unclean animals up until that point in his life tells us that they are still unclean, even though they may be lawful.

 

[Nanopants]

Edit: not worth it.

 

[godenver1]

The seahwaks showed em good! And I like the broncos.

Yeah he only wanted to split the church and cause division. His other purposes probably included hate, anger and bitterness.

I'd rather not speak of that.

I probably should of been more clear. I don't think Romans 14 is directly talking to denominationalism or division, but do you think Paul or any other apostles could of ever envisioned different denominations and do you think these writingings allow for such 'growth' in church theology?

If not, it begs the question, should there only be one visible church that mirrors the invisible church of Christ?