Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Zaha Torte]

Oh, good grief! Seriously? Analytically speaking, a rose by any other name is still just a rose.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/17/us/mormon-church-name-trnd/index.html

There is no need for me to repeat myself.

 

[Zaha Torte]

But at the end of the day, you can be Zaha Torte and I'll be Ghost Rider. It's ok. We all need a little fiction in our lives ...

I am Zaha Torte - the Latter-day Saint.

Just like you are Ghost Rider - the "Experimentialist and a Criminal Therapist"

Feel free to ask me questions anytime.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am Zaha Torte - the Latter-day Saint.

Just like you are Ghost Rider - the "Experimentialist and a Criminal Therapist"

If you're going to retort, please do it coherently.

Feel free to ask me questions anytime.

I might.

 

[Zaha Torte]

If you're going to retort, please do it coherently.

It was just about as coherent as you referring to me by the name of a long dead prophet/historian (Mormon).

I might.

I look forward to it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It was just about as coherent as you referring to me by the name of a long dead prophet/historian (Mormon).

And where is this long dead prophet/historian mentioned in literature, other than as a reference in Anime?

As a Critical Realist, I need evidence for your historical claim. Your claim may be true, but you need to provide the support. Would you care to provide it?

I look forward to it.

I'm sure that if you really wanted to, we could have a congenial, bilateral discussion about ....... can I even use the abbreviation for Latter day Saints, or is that off of the table, too? From the article I posted from CNN above, it sounds like you guys don't want to be referred to as LDS either?

 

[Zaha Torte]

And where is this long dead prophet/historian mentioned in literature, other than as a reference in Anime?

Don't toy with me.

Is there an Anime based on the Book of Mormon? I must know!

As a Critical Realist, I need evidence for your historical claim. Your claim may be true, but you need to provide the support. Would you care to provide it?

What would you consider to be evidence for the prophet Mormon?

I'm sure that if you really wanted to, we could have a congenial, bilateral discussion about ....... can I even use the abbreviation for Latter day Saints, or is that off of the table, too? From the article I posted from CNN above, it sounds like you guys don't want to be referred to as LDS either?

I'll let LDS pass.

Would you need to DM me to ask questions?

I'm new to this site.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am only concerned with the truth.

You realize that not every Sealing in the LDS faith is a marriage - correct?

Meaning - the Prophet being Sealed to another man's wife did not mean that he became married to that woman.

I really don't care about which women (and teens) Smith was "sealed" to. I more interested in the ones he had sex with.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I really don't care about which women (and teens) Smith was "sealed" to. I more interested in the ones he had sex with.

To my knowledge there is only evidence that he consummated with his first wife Emma.

Yet - he would have been justified in consummating with any of his other wives if he had been Sealed for Time as well as for Eternity.

 

[Aaron112]

As always, threads with anti-Christ posters, (false gospels bringers) are dis-trusted, disruptive, deceptive, inconclusive, and a violation of Scripture. They are not seeking salvation, truth, nor Jesus.

 

[BPPLEE]

I really don't care about which women (and teens) Smith was "sealed" to. I more interested in the ones he had sex with.

You might want to rephrase that.

 

[Zaha Torte]

As always, threads with anti-Christ posters, (false gospels bringers) are dis-trusted, disruptive, deceptive, inconclusive, and a violation of Scripture. They are not seeking salvation, truth, nor Jesus.

Let's try to remain civil according to the forum rules.

I can only assume that you are referring to me - can you offer an example of any of these accusations?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Don't toy with me.

Is there an Anime based on the Book of Mormon? I must know!

What would you consider to be evidence for the prophet Mormon?

I'll let LDS pass.

Would you need to DM me to ask questions?

I'm new to this site.

My apologies. I wasn't clear enough as to what I was referring to or in my understanding of what I thought you were previously referring to.

I was referring to your forum name, 'Zaha Torte.'

 

[Zaha Torte]

My apologies. I wasn't clear enough as to what I was referring to or in my understanding of what I thought you were previously referring to.

I was referring to your forum name, 'Zaha Torte.'

He was a character in an old Japanese cartoon - the villain.

I didn't see much of the show - but I liked the name of that character.

Do you believe that the evil sorcerer Zaha Torte and the prophet Mormon have something in common?

 

[Hans Blaster]

You might want to rephrase that.

Not really. "Sealed" is some sort of Mormon sacrament. (I think they call them "ordinances".) The other poster was trying to claim that these marriages were just spirit marriages of some kind for the afterlife. His "revelation" of plural marriage seems a rather convenient excuse to acquire additional partners. His first "plural wife" was apparently a 16-year old servant in his household. From the testimony, it is easier to deny the "marriage" than the sexual relationship. She was not the only one. The conclusion is quite obvious, Smith used his position as leader for sexual access to members.

 

[BPPLEE]

Not really. "Sealed" is some sort of Mormon sacrament. (I think they call them "ordinances".) The other poster was trying to claim that these marriages were just spirit marriages of some kind for the afterlife. His "revelation" of plural marriage seems a rather convenient excuse to acquire additional partners. His first "plural wife" was apparently a 16-year old servant in his household. From the testimony, it is easier to deny the "marriage" than the sexual relationship. She was not the only one. The conclusion is quite obvious, Smith used his position as leader for sexual access to members.

Seems most cult leaders do.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Seems most cult leaders do.

It is disturbingly common.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Not really. "Sealed" is some sort of Mormon sacrament. (I think they call them "ordinances".) The other poster was trying to claim that these marriages were just spirit marriages of some kind for the afterlife. His "revelation" of plural marriage seems a rather convenient excuse to acquire additional partners. His first "plural wife" was apparently a 16-year old servant in his household. From the testimony, it is easier to deny the "marriage" than the sexual relationship. She was not the only one. The conclusion is quite obvious, Smith used his position as leader for sexual access to members.

I was born after my parents had been Sealed to each other for all Time and throughout all Eternity.

This means that I was automatically Sealed to them when I was conceived.

This is the only way that a man can be directly Sealed to another - a father to his son.

And I feel the need to be very clear here - because of your preconceived notions about Sealings - there is absolutely no possibility that I will ever have sex with my father or mother.

Not every Sealing is a marriage, but every marriage in the Temple (today) is a Sealing.

Joseph Smith Jr - as well as many of the other members of the Quorum of the Twelve - were Sealed to other men's wives - in order to Seal their families as well as their Quorum.

These Sealings were not marriages. The LDS Church has always condemned polyandry.

These unions were viewed as "dynastic" - assuring a continued relationship throughout Eternity.

Joseph Smith Jr did have many wives - some were for Time and Eternity - others just for Eternity.

As far as I know there is no evidence that Joseph Smith Jr had relations with any woman other than his first wife Emma.

Of course, there is a third-hand account of intimacy on behalf of Fanny Alger - the girl you mentioned - from a hostile source - as well as a second-hand account for Sarah Lawrence - but there is scant evidence of any intimacy at all let alone sexual relations between him and his other wives.

Either way - even if there was intimacy - what a man and wife do is their business.

You can read more about the Prophet and plural marriage here,

The Beginnings of Polygamy - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

In this essay, we attempt to piece together as accurate as possible of a picture of why and how polygamy was established all those years ago in Nauvoo.

josephsmithspolygamy.org

 

[Hans Blaster]

I was born after my parents had been Sealed to each other for all Time and throughout all Eternity.

This means that I was automatically Sealed to them when I was conceived.

This is the only way that a man can be directly Sealed to another - a father to his son.

And I feel the need to be very clear here - because of your preconceived notions about Sealings - there is absolutely no possibility that I will ever have sex with my father or mother.

Not every Sealing is a marriage, but every marriage in the Temple (today) is a Sealing.

Joseph Smith Jr - as well as many of the other members of the Quorum of the Twelve - were Sealed to other men's wives - in order to Seal their families as well as their Quorum.

These Sealings were not marriages. The LDS Church has always condemned polyandry.

These unions were viewed as "dynastic" - assuring a continued relationship throughout Eternity.

Joseph Smith Jr did have many wives - some were for Time and Eternity - others just for Eternity.

That's why I said I didn't care about "sealings".

As far as I know there is no evidence that Joseph Smith Jr had relations with any woman other than his first wife Emma.

Of course, there is a third-hand account of intimacy on behalf of Fanny Alger - the girl you mentioned - from a hostile source - as well as a second-hand account for Sarah Lawrence - but there is scant evidence of any intimacy at all let alone sexual relations between him and his other wives.

There are many others. I'm not going to go through them all. The collective weight of the evidence is pretty clear.

You can read more about the Prophet and plural marriage here,

The Beginnings of Polygamy - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

In this essay, we attempt to piece together as accurate as possible of a picture of why and how polygamy was established all those years ago in Nauvoo.

josephsmithspolygamy.org

I'm not interested in official excusegetics.

 

[Zaha Torte]

That's why I said I didn't care about "sealings".

There are many others. I'm not going to go through them all. The collective weight of the evidence is pretty clear.

I'm not interested in official excusegetics.

Then you are not prepared in any way to have a discussion about this topic.

Joseph Smith Jr had many wives - the estimates are somewhere around 29-33.

You not caring about the LDS concept of Sealings means that all you can do is apply your own bias.

To you - all marriage means sex.

To them - being Sealed or married did not always mean sex.

As I said before - you are not prepared in any way to have a discussion about this topic.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then you are not prepared in any way to have a discussion about this topic.

Joseph Smith Jr had many wives - the estimates are somewhere around 29-33.

You not caring about the LDS concept of Sealings means that all you can do is apply your own bias.

I don't care about sealings. Why should I.

To you - all marriage means sex.

Don't put words in my mouth. (I am familiar with the comedic literature on the topic of sexless marriage.)

To them - being Sealed or married did not always mean sex.

As I said before - you are not prepared in any way to have a discussion about this topic.

It is hard to have a discussion when the opposing side is only quoting official propaganda.