Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[HopeSings]

You keep showing up in the wrong places then. Politics are the point of the discussions I have seen you injecting yourself into. It is quite the claim to complain about politics in the discussion of inherently political things.

Politics are what's wrong with society and the church

 

[BCP1928]

Politics are what's wrong with society and the church

Take it up with Steve, then. He's the one pushing for a political Christianity

 

[HopeSings]

Take it up with Steve, then. He's the one pushing for a political Christianity

I'm just sharing my understanding

 

[Hans Blaster]

Church on Sundays, prayers in public forums, referring to God and Godly upright citizens.

We'll come back to it in a moment, but church on Sudays was not the dominant thing.

Are we going to base this on the invocations of god in public statements and events? (Oh, look we are.) Is your religion so weak that it needs to be sustained by government officials make statements of faith?

They had a Christian worldview and these were the social norms and not just confined to sunady church.. This was the same when I was growing up where pray was in parliament,

The US Congress begins every *day* with a prayer by a chaplain. (Sigh.) This has not changed.

presidents utters God bless America

They still do. The last one didn't seem that sincere about it and the current one often substitutes "god bless our troops".

and most people attended church.

But that wasn't the case. Church attendance peaked in the 50s/60s meaning that it was lower not only afterward, but *BEFORE*.

So its not too long ago that we still had God and Christian values as social norms.

And as we have discussed previously, many of these "Christian values" are not exclusive, especially the ones that were social norms.

When you take all your seperatists groups who were after all squabling over Christianity yes it was all about Christianity at one stage. Enough anyway that it influenced the public square and social norms, which is enough compared to modern times.

I'm not sure how fruitful this line will be, as everything adjacent to Christianity seems to be just regular Christianity in you approximation.

Ok so I read different. But even dependening on which nation there were laws (Blue laws) preventing work on Sundays to encourage church going even as recent as a few decades ago.

There were and still are. The point of blue laws is that without them people will do non-church stuff and the Christians with power don't like that. If everyone went to church instead of the lake or the football game, there wouldn't be such a "need" for blue laws.

Blue laws, also known as Sunday laws, Sunday trade laws, and Sunday closing laws, are laws restricting or banning certain activities on specified days, usually Sundays in the western world. The laws were adopted originally for religious reasons, specifically to promote the observance of the Christian day of worship, but since then have come to serve secular purposes as well.

Blue law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sunday Laws in America
Other colonies besides Virginia had their own Sunday laws, requiring attendance at services and forbidding everything from working to sports and recreation to swearing and "tippling" at the taverns.

Sunday Laws in America

www.libertymagazine.org

When I was a kid our parish was the product of the merger of two small parishes and alternated masses by weeks. One of the two was in a town with a grocery (the other wasn't) and we generally went to the grocery store after church, but the town with the grocery store had Sunday closing laws so the grocery store couldn't be open and we would drive to a town further away every week for our groceries. (The same town also closed the local bars on Sunday, but I hear that the "back door" was always open on game days.)

I've lived in places *IN THE 21st CENTURY* where alcohol sales were prohibited on Sundays. The Christians do this when they have enough control and/or can bully the rest in to accepting their control.

I am sure there has always been strange and alternative interpretations of Christianity. I mean look at the persecution of the church, look at the child abuse.

What "persecution of the church"? There has been no persecution of the church in our countries in our lifetime. As for the child abuse, the only child abuse I know of that seems even remotely related is the abuse that was covered up by many churches and related organizations. I don't know how that can conceivably work to your argument.

I am not sure divorce and family abandonment was common, well not as common as it became after mid 20th century. More marriages lasted a long time. There was more respect and value for the institution of marriage.

Did I say the were common? If I did, it would be better to say they weren't rare. There were also a lot more marriages that ended early in death. Respect for the "institution of marriage" seems to carry a lot of baggage and places the "institution" above the participants. Bad marriage *should* be ended, hopefully, mutually. They do no credit whatsoever to the "institution."

 

[Hans Blaster]

Politics are what's wrong with society and the church

I really don't care what is wrong with your church. Less church in politics would be great.

 

[stevevw]

For which right-wing Evangelicals like yourself want to give Christianity full credit for introducing to the West, while dodging responsibility for all of the bad things done in the name of Christianity.

I haven't dodged any of that. I acknowledged that the West done bad stuff including the church and in the name of Christianity. I have also acknowledged the good stuff for which Christianity is one of them.

I don't say Christianity invented these western ideas like democracy, Rule of Law and Human Rights but that Christianity aligns with these truths. They happen to go hand in hand as with Christs teachings.

This is the west warts and all. But we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater because the west has done some bad stuff in its past. We need to lean from that and like more like Christ. That is Christianity in action. That is the ultimate example of how we should behave.

The article about Brazil is paywalled, so it's not quite clear what it has to do with US politics, but you certainly seem to have a direct line to the Trump propaganda machine down there in Oz. I'm surprised; I always thought Australians had more sense than that.

The Trump propaganda machine lol. I am not sure what that is and nor do I know what exactly Trump stands for as far as US local politics.

But what I find interesting is that people seem to take sides and assume the other is peddling propaganda and how they will destroy society, the world lol. This is the identity politics I am talking about. That people take this us and them stand like Trump and therefore anyone who supports him are the enermy, the 'other' group that are evil and dangerous.

Instead of perhaps finding out and understanding why they would support a particular party or idea. I remember watching when Trump won and people were devasted, crying, like it was the end of the world. There seems to be a lot more invested in it than it warrants.

But it certainly exposed the vast ideological difference that people become so passionate and even antagonistic of any opposing views. Rather than perhaps be more tolerant and understanding of different views which may have some basis.

 

[BCP1928]

I haven't dodged any of that. I acknowledged that the West done bad stuff including the church and in the name of Christianity. I have also acknowledged the good stuff for which Christianity is one of them.

I don't say Christianity invented these western ideas like democracy, Rule of Law and Human Rights but that Christianity aligns with these truths. They happen to go hand in hand as with Christs teachings.

This is the west warts and all. But we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater because the west has done some bad stuff in its past. We need to lean from that and like more like Christ. That is Christianity in action. That is the ultimate example of how we should behave.

Which is the baby and which is the bath water? Conservative Christians like yourself want Christianity to have more political authority in order to fight the imaginary Woke monster and make sure non-Christians do sex like you want them to. You claim a right to that authority based on a dubious interpretation of history. All that looks like bathwater to me. Certainly I don't see the Gospel of Christ in it anywhere.

The Trump propaganda machine lol. I am not sure what that is and nor do I know what exactly Trump stands for as far as US local politics.

But what I find interesting is that people seem to take sides and assume the other is peddling propaganda and how they will destroy society, the world lol. This is the identity politics I am talking about. That people take this us and them stand like Trump and therefore anyone who supports him are the enermy, the 'other' group that are evil and dangerous.

Instead of perhaps finding out and understanding why they would support a particular party or idea. I remember watching when Trump won and people were devasted, crying, like it was the end of the world. There seems to be a lot more invested in it than it warrants.

But it certainly exposed the vast ideological difference that people become so passionate and even antagonistic of any opposing views. Rather than perhaps be more tolerant and understanding of different views which may have some basis.

Propaganda is not just the airing of ideological views, it is promoting those views with falsehoods that makes it propaganda.

 

[stevevw]

We'll come back to it in a moment, but church on Sudays was not the dominant thing.

Are we going to base this on the invocations of god in public statements and events? (Oh, look we are.) Is your religion so weak that it needs to be sustained by government officials make statements of faith?

The point is the language in government and society was a reflection of where they were at. Where their thinking and beliefs were at. They were obviously more God conscious in how they seen the world than we are today.

The US Congress begins every *day* with a prayer by a chaplain. (Sigh.) This has not changed.

Ok there's still remenants of religion within the State. Who do they pray to. Is it the Christian God. If so why that God, why does parliament only allow the Christian God. Or is this now a token thing.

I know that there is a growing move to remove pray and other practices from governance at least in other nations like Australia, Canada and Britain.

But that wasn't the case. Church attendance peaked in the 50s/60s meaning that it was lower not only afterward, but *BEFORE*.

Well obviously the war had a lot to do with it. I think attendence fluctuated sometimes declining and then growing. It seems around 80% of people attended church in the early to mid 17th century. This may have fluctuated after this but still there was high attendence often by mothers presenting the family.

It seems late 19th century was when things began to change with people questioning fundementalism and some of the religious laws and rules were being challenged. This makes sense because it was a time of industrialisation, of science and progression.

But still it seems attendences declined and then grew again even early 20th century with new denominations, the American African Church growth for example. So the 50's and 60s was another peak and then attendences really began to decline with the cultural revolutions. Thats also when many religious laws were challenged such as abortion and divorce laws.

Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches, which were being built at a headlong pace.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel02.html

American religious life shared fully in this sense of growth and rapid change. Protestantism continued to hold a central, although unofficial, place in the nation’s life. Formal membership in churches and other local religious organizations continued along the upwardarching path set during the early nineteenth century, reaching the highest levels yet known in the history of the nation.

1878-1899: Religion: Overview | Encyclopedia.com

1878-1899: Religion: Overview New Outlooks. In the last quarter of the nineteenth century industrialization and urbanization profoundly affected the manner in which Americans viewed their society. Great cities arose and industrialization proceeded so quickly that within two generations the...

www.encyclopedia.com

And as we have discussed previously, many of these "Christian values" are not exclusive, especially the ones that were social norms.

Really, no sex before marriage, anti gay and abortion laws, Sunday Blue laws, adultery ect.

I'm not sure how fruitful this line will be, as everything adjacent to Christianity seems to be just regular Christianity in you approximation.

You were trying to make out that these squabbling denominations were contradictory to Christianity and I am saying thats a fallacy because they were all Christians squabbling over fringe aspects and not the core truths.

The point is the vast majority were religious, had a religious belief in a God and if Christians in Christ. In that sense that generation is chalk and cheese to todays. So it contrasts our Christian heritage and roots which dominated western consciousness now replaced by some other consciousness or ideology, but its not a God fearing society anymore as it once was.

There were and still are. The point of blue laws is that without them people will do non-church stuff and the Christians with power don't like that. If everyone went to church instead of the lake or the football game, there wouldn't be such a "need" for blue laws.

It was more than that. For society to even have such laws influencing even secular society showed the central role Christian values played. At one point there were laws to go to church in some communities but it was a serious matter.

Then as society commercialised it came into conflict thus Blue laws. Then Blue laws became a backdoor for church being optional. Then Blues were phased out. So it was originally rooted in the importaance church played in society.

When I was a kid our parish was the product of the merger of two small parishes and alternated masses by weeks. One of the two was in a town with a grocery (the other wasn't) and we generally went to the grocery store after church, but the town with the grocery store had Sunday closing laws so the grocery store couldn't be open and we would drive to a town further away every week for our groceries. (The same town also closed the local bars on Sunday, but I hear that the "back door" was always open on game days.)

Of course and this is how it changes. People begin to buck the system and then it becomes wide spread and changes. But primarily this was a battle between the church having hold over peoples morals and the progression of modern secular society and of course secular society is going to win. Now Sunday is just like any other day.

But it wasn't just about church but a day of rest, of being with the family and loved ones and sharing as a community.

I've lived in places *IN THE 21st CENTURY* where alcohol sales were prohibited on Sundays. The Christians do this when they have enough control and/or can bully the rest in to accepting their control.

I don't agree with any group having so much sway over policy Christian, Woke or any ideology that is forced on people. Unless it is well justified. The Government here banned alcohol in some indigenous communities as this was becoming a big problem with abuse and safety.

But primarily the Church should not dictate these matters but rather advise and support and represent their position to the State based on research to make their case. The same with any group who tries to impose their ideas on society like Woke policies. Though they seem to get a free run.

What "persecution of the church"? There has been no persecution of the church in our countries in our lifetime. As for the child abuse, the only child abuse I know of that seems even remotely related is the abuse that was covered up by many churches and related organizations. I don't know how that can conceivably work to your argument.

I was talking about the child abuse in the church and I was trying to make a arguement for the church. I was adding to you saying how people can abuse their power and position in the name of Christianity. Thats why the church should not be a political entity but just deal with spiritual matters.

But the church and Christianity is being attacked in the public square. There is a growing hostility to religion but especially Christianity as these clash with progressive ideologies like Woke. So its sort of doing full circle where once it was Christian social norms and now this is flipped on its head to the point that CHristian morals conflict with modern secular norms and are even seen as being hateful and an impediment to prtogressive ideology.

First religion perse is under attack around the world by secular States.
A Closer Look at How Religious Restrictions Have Risen Around the World

A Closer Look at How Religious Restrictions Have Risen Around the World

Over the decade from 2007 to 2017, government restrictions on religion - laws, policies and actions by state officials that restrict religious beliefs and practices - increased markedly around the world.

www.pewresearch.org

Hostility Towards Christianity Increasing in U.S. and Europe, Experts Warn

Hostility Towards Christianity Increasing in U.S. and Europe, Experts Warn

Experts are warning of rising anti-Christian hostility - not just abroad, but at home in the U.S. Arielle Del Turco, director of the Center for Religious Libert

washingtonstand.com

Did I say the were common? If I did, it would be better to say they weren't rare. There were also a lot more marriages that ended early in death. Respect for the "institution of marriage" seems to carry a lot of baggage and places the "institution" above the participants. Bad marriage *should* be ended, hopefully, mutually. They do no credit whatsoever to the "institution."

I think it all comes down to how marriage is valued. Sure basd marriages should either be fixed or ended. But its like a self feeding vicious cycle where marriage has been devalued so it creates bad marriages which need to end.

But marriage has definitely changed and is less valuable, less about the institution itself as being something held above feelings and individual fullfillment. But I think this is a general reflection of the devaluing of sacrifice in society where people are not as committed and value long term value in place of short term success and value.

 

[BCP1928]

I know that there is a growing move to remove pray and other practices from governance at least in other nations like Australia, Canada and Britain.

OK, let's see how that works: A couple of decades ago there was a notorious school prayer case in Texas, Santa Fe School District v. Doe.
It was traditional in the district that high school football games started with a prayer. Because it was a conservative region, it was always an Evangelical Protestant prayer. Eventually, a group of parents belonging to other faith groups (note: no atheists were involved) sued the district for violation of their First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Early on in the proceedings, a compromise was offered by them that the prayer be rotated around to representatives of the other faith groups in the school. The district rejected it out of hand, saying it would be an Evangelical prayer or nothing. In the end, the Supreme Court gave them nothing, and conservatives like you still whine about that case, saying that God has been forced out of the school. What do you say? I say, good riddance.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Hostility Towards Christianity Increasing in U.S. and Europe, Experts Warn

Mine grows in proportion to the amount of time I spend here.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I was talking about the child abuse in the church and I was trying to make a arguement for the church. I was adding to you saying how people can abuse their power and position in the name of Christianity. Thats why the church should not be a political entity but just deal with spiritual matters.

That's a really bad argument for the existence of churches. It's a better argument for their dissolution.

 

[dlamberth]

In some ways I think Christianity is being reverted back to its early days within the Roman Empire where Christians were forced to go underground and were attacked for their belief.

I for one would very much like to see Christianity revert back to it's earlier Roman Empire days. The reason being is that the way Christianity became the predominate religion back than is that the believers worked hard in bringing Love to the common people by helping those in need. The welfare of People was their agenda, not politics nor money. It was a communal trajectory of Love for all. It was very Christ Like.

 

[stevevw]

I for one would very much like to see Christianity revert back to it's earlier Roman Empire days. The reason being is that the way Christianity became the predominate religion back than is that the believers worked hard in bringing Love to the common people by helping those in need. The welfare of People was their agenda, not politics nor money. It was a communal trajectory of Love for all. It was very Christ Like.

I think this may happen more and this will really test peoples faith and this is when Christ shines. Though the bible does say the world will hate you because of faiyj in Christ.

 

[stevevw]

That's a really bad argument for the existence of churches. It's a better argument for their dissolution.

Not really, no more than saying that the law and justice has been abused or that politics has been used to abuse but that doesn't negate the good these things serve.

 

[stevevw]

Mine grows in proportion to the amount of time I spend here.

Lol well then don't spent so much time here lol. Go on you like it don't you, admit it lol.

 

[stevevw]

OK, let's see how that works: A couple of decades ago there was a notorious school prayer case in Texas, Santa Fe School District v. Doe.

What is it with the US and cases involving Doe. Doe seems to be everywhere.

It was traditional in the district that high school football games started with a prayer. Because it was a conservative region, it was always an Evangelical Protestant prayer. Eventually, a group of parents belonging to other faith groups (note: no atheists were involved) sued the district for violation of their First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Early on in the proceedings, a compromise was offered by them that the prayer be rotated around to representatives of the other faith groups in the school. The district rejected it out of hand, saying it would be an Evangelical prayer or nothing. In the end, the Supreme Court gave them nothing, and conservatives like you still whine about that case, saying that God has been forced out of the school. What do you say? I say, good riddance.

I don't even know about that case as I am not from the US. But what interests me is how these group activists who complain that some other religion is allowed in the first place. If as these activists claim all people should have the right to express their faith then why complain about another religious group expressing their faith.

The fact is western nations were and still are to a fair degree at least more than any other religion predominant and therefore under religious freedom it naturally follows that western societies are going to be expressing Christianity more than any other religion. People will hear it more and there will be more motivation and drive within society for Christian expression.

If religious freedom is a right then we should expect to see more expressions of Christianity. Even if that bugs people. Thats how its suppose to work. But in some strange way the Woke are siding with radical Islam over Christianity which is a weird collaborition. So its not really about equality and rights but about ideological beliefs and culture wars.

 

[BCP1928]

What is it with the US and cases involving Doe. Doe seems to be everywhere.

"John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.

I don't even know about that case as I am not from the US. But what interests me is how these group activists who complain that some other religion is allowed in the first place. If as these activists claim all people should have the right to express their faith then why complain about another religious group expressing their faith.

Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.

The fact is western nations were and still are to a fair degree at least more than any other religion predominant and therefore under religious freedom it naturally follows that western societies are going to be expressing Christianity more than any other religion. People will hear it more and there will be more motivation and drive within society for Christian expression.

Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.

If religious freedom is a right then we should expect to see more expressions of Christianity. Even if that bugs people. Thats how its suppose to work. But in some strange way the Woke are siding with radical Islam over Christianity which is a weird collaborition.

Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.

So its not really about equality and rights but about ideological beliefs and culture wars.

On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.

 

[stevevw]

"John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.

Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.

Are these actual Christian denominations arguing among themselves or is this another religion. Because if its Christian denominations then the easy solution is the Lords Prayer which Parliament uses. Its a universal Christian prayer and is actually the prayer Christ said to pray.

The Christian pray is probably going to come up more than any other religion so of course its going to dominate. But for public schools its hard to be all inclusive because then different religions which actually coinflict with each other or conflict with western values then has to be promoted as well.

So I guess thats why Its probably best not to promote any religion and just allow religion as optional with a seperate space for those who want to pray and practice their religion.

But its in the public square is where the problems start as people have a right to express their faith. Naturally Christianity is going to be the most expressed belief as we do have a connection and Christian history.

What I find hard to understand is that under freedom of belief we have to allow all religions even those like Isalm who promote anti western ideology. Thats why I think inclusiveness and toleration for all beliefs and political positions is a contradiction of democracy which actually undermines a free society.

Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.

Who are these people you keep referring to. You keep mentioning these American examples and Australian politics is not like this. Or at least not that extreme. I am not even sure what your point is. Your obviously assuming that I belong to some particular political party.

But are you saying that theres a move to stop or ban Christians expressing their faith in the public square.

Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.

Siding against what lol. What are you saying I am pushing because whatever it is your attributing something that I am not. But whatever it is it seems to bug you and just about every reply is an attack on this strawmnan you have created. It seems more personal than what actually is.

On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.

Once again what is my side. I stand for truth, facts, and reality regardless of religious belief. Its the only way we can know whats going on lol. What have I actually pushed. Lets see democracy, Rule of Law, Freedoms like religion, conscience and political views, Human Rights, human dignity and worth beyond human determinations, the value of family and santity of marriage.

How is this controversial.

 

[BPPLEE]

"John Doe" is used as a legal stand-in name where the plaintiffs want to remain anonymous--in this case for their own safety.

Because it's a public (i.e. government) school event. If there is to be a prayer at public school activities (a dubious proposition to begin with) why should it always be your prayer? The students aren't all Evangelicals. There are other Protestants in the school and Roman Catholics as well. Why shouldn't one of them lead the prayer sometimes? But no, they're just "activists" for wanting to.

Not if people like you get their way. Just like the Santa Fe School District, you insist on your version of Christianity or nothing. Don't be surprised if you get nothing.

Not so weird when you realize how many Christians are in that mix and siding against you as well.

On one side it's about equality and rights. Your side is the one that's about ideological beliefs and culture wars.

The only prayer in a public school should be student led, voluntary and informal. Not over the loudspeaker at a football game. If some of the students want to say a prayer before or after the game or when a player gets injured that’s fine,
I oppose religion being imposed on people in a public school no matter what the religion is. It’s my job to teach my children about God, not the school’s.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Lol well then don't spent so much time here lol. Go on you like it don't you, admit it lol.

I do miss it every time I have an enforced break. (That would happen less, but some Christians are very sensitive about some things...

[Edit to add:]

I don't know why people think that statement was funny. I was serious. The more time I spend here the harder it is to ignore the negative aspects of religion. Both as a non-believer and previously as a Christian myself, I didn't spend much (if any) time thinking about Christian doctrines or claims. That changed when I found this place and found it interesting.

I am reminded of one of the most memorable lines from ST:TNG (quoth Mr. O'Brien "I don't hate you Cardassian. I hate what I became because of you." Like Mr. O'Brien, I don't hate Christians, but unlike Miles, I don't actually hate what I have "become". I no longer give deference to Christianity for its mere existence. I no longer excuse Christian supernatural claims from my skepticism of the supernatural. I no longer dismiss religiously based bigotry as "un-Christian." What I do hate, is that the best place to discuss these things in my life is a website that very much limits what I can say against a religion that I think is not only not true, but contains core doctrines that I now find "awful if true".