I think I'm now officially "post-Charismatic"

[jamadan]

Don't get me wrong, because I respect what you are saying, but how can someone preach the Word while ignoring the gifts of the Spirit and the Baptism in the Spirit? Seems rather contradictory.

And a church that lays down the gifts is like a general telling its army to fight without any weapons at all. The gifts of the Spirit are what validated Christ's ministry to the populace - the signs and wonders confirmed the Word of God. By laying down the gifts, you rely on your ability to persuade people that Jesus is the Christ. Paul said, 'When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

I think the goal is to preach the whole Gospel, regardless of the Church. You're right, too many charismatic churches hyper focus on the gifts, but not preaching on the gifts is just as bad.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I just read the OP 5 years after the fact but it seemed to me that the OP was more focused on judging others and how they used/misused the gifts than seeking the Lord and His righteousness. It is far easier to attend a church that says just read your Bible, pray, and say if its God's will, than to persevere for a breakthrough and pay the price for the increased presence of God. Just my observation though, 5 years later.

 

[jamadan]

Ahhh, thanks. I spotted it and read the OP but was still in pre-coffee mode and didn't realize it was so old

 

[lismore]

I just read the OP 5 years after the fact but it seemed to me that the OP was more focused on judging others and how they used/misused the gifts than seeking the Lord and His righteousness. It is far easier to attend a church that says just read your Bible, pray, and say if its God's will, than to persevere for a breakthrough and pay the price for the increased presence of God. Just my observation though, 5 years later.

Hi Soldier

I knew the OP from many years ago, Tamarra224. She was not I believe judging others, just expressing frustration at her experience in a charismatic church.

I replied favourably to her post several years back, after I had a frustrating experience in an AOG church after eight years.

'Post-charismatic'. To my mind this means moving on from some of the abuses and unscriptural practices seen in Pente-charismatic circles by some of us.

I believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But I will not be abused in church again.

God Bless

 

[salamacum]

Can you say how you were abused?

 

[lismore]

Can you say how you were abused?

Yes post 151. You replied in post 152, don't you remember?

 

[psalm232]

Excellent post- I can relate to the OP....I'm also feeling led to worship at a Baptist church for a season.

 

[At The Ready]

I've started attending a Baptist Church and I love it!

I've been going for a little over a month now and I even went to the church picnic yesterday. The pastor seems to be a really great guy with a heart for missions and preaching the unadulterated Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. He's solidly founded in Scripture which is sooooo refreshing compared to the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches around here. Yesterday, he actually preached from a whole chapter of Acts and told us that "we must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

And yesterday at the picnic he and his wife made a point to get to know me and include me since I was there all by myself and didn't really know anyone. So did several other people - everyone was very welcoming and seemed genuinly happy to have me there.

And talking to people showed me that it's not just the pastor and his wife who are solidly grounded in the Word and walking by faith.

The worship service is a little tame compared to what I'm used to... but I'm finding that I really like it. They don't speak in tongues or sing in tongues, they don't prophecy, they rarely clap their hands, and I haven't seen any dance (I have spotted some finger and toe tapping and hand raising). But they also don't drown out the congregation with loud music or repeat the same song over and over again until everyone is senseless or make a big production out of their musical performances. So that's also refreshing.

I suppose this makes me officially "post-charismatic" because I'd rather go without the Gifts of the Spirit in corporate worship than see them continually misused, abused and faked.

"Charismatic" is a theology and an experience, it's not a church denomination. If you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the continued appropriate use of the gifts of the Spirit, you are a Charismatic, like it or not. If you believe that those things ended with the Apostles, then you are a cessationist, and not a Charismatic. To my understanding and experience, there is nothing in Scripture that indicates that these gifts would or should end until Christ returns.

I'm sorry that you attended Charismatic/Pentecostal churches that didn't preach the full counsel of God (i.e., the whole Bible), but there is nothing inherently charismatic abt that. In fact, the Calvary Chapel movement is a "third wave charismatic church" to be technical, and they were one of the first denominations/fellowships in modern times to insist that their pastors preach exegetically through the whole Bible, chapter by chapter.

There are also Baptists today who (*gasp*, haha) embrace Charismatic theology and practice, even if they shy away from them in their main services. So called "Bapticostals" like Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, James Robison, and I believe Rick Warren would fall into that category as well. Broad labels don't work so well in the evangelical church any more, and personally, I feel like that is a good thing.

 

[missmarple]

I cant go to a church where nothing happens. no tongues, no interpretations of tongues, no miracles, no healings, no prophetic ministry, no deliverance ministry. no way can I go and sit there and listen to salvation messages over and over cause thats all they know, that and condemning sinners.
religion with no power. dead religion. not for me.
I dont understand why this is a charismatic section, yet many who reject it and hate it post here. maybe I am supposed to go to the "dead churches" section and bash them?
sigh...

 

[bushinoki]

Miss marple, many of us are leary about the Pente-Charismatic type churches because of the abuses. Often a genuine movement begins, and then the flesh, and possibly false spirits, take over. It's lead to multiple scandals and controversies over the years. I myself am a Baptized in the Spirit Pentecostal, but I don't see the need to Speak in Tongues every service. A good worship service can be very Spirit Filled just by pouring your heart out to the Father who loves you.

 

[salamacum]

I have posted on here with a double thrust - it's not just 'charismatic' churches but 'sound', 'evangelical' churches can also bind us, into ...legalism, one interpretion of God, Jesus or His word, factionalism, denominationalism (certainly), scepticism and fear, lethargy, lack of expectation, ossification, pride... Certainly the writers of 'pagan Christianity' assert that the typical preacher-led, sermon as oratory is unbiblical. At least there were gifts in the first century, not sermons.

 

[bushinoki]

Salamacum, it is a dangerous thing either way. Theology trained ministers are the anchor that keeps the Church from drifting away from Biblical principals. But ego can step in for these men. Every Church needs to maintain a system of checks and balances.

 

[PraiseHisName9]

Enjoy having a pastor who doesn't believe in anything we were promised after Jesus' ascension such as healing, prophecy, tongues, or the like.

 

[bushinoki]

PraiseHisName, I'm "post-Charismatic" in a "Neo-Classical Pentecostal" manner. The problem I encountered is that what starts as a real move of the Spirit all too often devolves into 1 Corinthians 14 all over again: People exercising Spiritual Gifts in a showy, ego laden manner. Assemblies of God USA has had to cut ties with a few churches, or had ties cut, because of the drift away from sound theology. Don't get me wrong, the fruit of some former AG churches is still good, as these individual churches broke away simply to escape the semi-presbyterian polity, but many of the former AG churches are no longer affiliated simply because they allowed emotionalism to supplant the Spirit, and gave way to the Flesh, rendering the fruit they originally bore spoiled.

I'm all for a good worship service with signs and wonders, with the Holy Spirit moving as He sees fit. I just don't want to be part of a Charismatic movement that is drifting away from sound theology.

 

[PraiseHisName9]

Is it better to somewhat over use the gifts, or to not use them at all? Or even believe in them at all?

 

[bushinoki]

PraiseHisName, it is better that everything be done decently and in order. I am a Pentecostal, I believe wholeheartedly in the Gifts of the Spirit. But we have to look at the fruit. If the exercise of Spiritual Gifts isn't bringing the lost to salvation or edification to the Body, then the exercise is of the flesh.

 

[PraiseHisName9]

If it is wrong then why would the spirit allow the gift to show itself? Or are you insinuating that the tongue/gift is fake?

 

[NorrinRadd]

If it is wrong then why would the spirit allow the gift to show itself? Or are you insinuating that the tongue/gift is fake?

Samson sometimes used the power of the Spirit selfishly.

At Corinth, many of the believers were using the gifts in selfish and divisive ways, and so Paul wrote a stern corrective letter. The gifts were real. Their use of them was fleshly. We don't know whether God would have continued to allow them to use the gifts if they persisted, especially if they ignored Paul's instructions. And if God had "shut off" the real gifts because of the abuse, we don't know whether they would have repented, or would have resorted to fakery.

 

[bushinoki]

PraiseHisName, four word for you: Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship. Case study in something that started off very real and descended into flesh.

 

[salamacum]

It's not logical you know to allow experience to determine doctrine.
So my church leader (also a doctor) was not right to become a cessationist because he couldn't affirm one incontrovertible miracle.
And bushinoki, it's not coherent to dismiss a teaching because of bad examples. My preacher always used to say that his sermons were addressed to himself as much as anyone else. Was he a hypocrit? Did it discredit his calls for holiness and faith?
Descend into 'flesh'? I've been around the evangelical scene for 20 years and I can tell you there is a lot of 'flesh' around including leadership. The gospel continues, though - praise God.